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Evolution

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Portillo

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Some of the best evidence for evolution is the following:

1. Bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics and insect pests become resistant to insecticides.

2. Because of drought, finches living on the Galapagos Islands varied in beak sizes. This produced a population of birds with larger beaks.

3. The breeding of domestic animals (selective breeding). For example, variety in dogs.

4. Industrial melanism in the peppered moth occured when trees were darkened by industrial smoke. Dark colored moths become more abundant because they were not as visible as the white colored moths. When the trees lightened again, the light-colored moths had the advantage.

5. Fruitflies were tested on with radiation, and the fruitflies developed things like extra legs and extra wings.

6. In the 1950s, Stanley Miller produced amino acids by sending sparks through a mixture of gases.

Does this prove how life came from non-life and over a period of time get plants, insects, amphibians, fish, reptiles, birds, mammals and humans? Does it prove how evolution can create new species, new organs and other major changes? By evolution I mean the operation of a purposeless, unguided, natural process through a combination of random genetic changes, mutations and natural selection.
 
God bought a packet of "dehydrated creation" from a travelling salesman going door to door. The packet contained a bunch of planets with the instructions "just add water" printed on the front.
 
no amount of evidence can ever prove a scientific theory. it can never be judged to be proven in all instances, because we haven't seen future instances.

evolution has far more explanatory power than 'magic man done it,' this is its strength.

as most of the creationists arguments presuppose that the earth is a closed system, the eye is perfect whereas its actually pretty rubbish, and that it evolved all at once rather than starting out as a group of photosensitive cells, or some other demonstrably untrue statement, its rarely a fruitful debate. hopefully this thread will provoke more rational debate than i'm used to.....
 
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If it wasn't for God we wouldn't be as civilized as we are today, if it wasn't for the way science works we wouldn't be here today and there would be no God to stop you putting that packet of wine gum in your pocket that are rightfully tescos. Thats my opinion.
 
trippin_titties said:
If it wasn't for God we wouldn't be as civilized as we are today, if it wasn't for the way science works we wouldn't be here today and there would be no God to stop you putting that packet of wine gum in your pocket that are rightfully tescos. Thats my opinion.
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Thats the whole problem with a notion of God. You don't steal the lollies cause he came down from heaven and said not to. Better that you pay for your wine gums because of your own carefully considered moral framework, than for fear of vengeance by a sky guy.

Anyway, on evolution, an interesting article for any who missed it. Re a species of fish in Lake Victoria, apparently undergoing some evolutionary adjustments.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/lifestyle/health-science/fish-colour-laws-of-evolution/story-e6frfhjf-1111117674946
 
Portillo said:
purposeless, unguided
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is it purposeless if if its purpose is to evolve and is it unguided if its guided by mutation and selection ?

sure that doesnt make it any less random in its possibility but there is one big strict rule which is that : if you dont survive you die (even if you are a virus and arent alive if you stop reproducing youll be set aside and disappear from relevance)
surviving is a purpose,
so life has its purpose which is to sustain itself, and as humans we do it with love, love is a chemical bound that makes us care to protect our ego and what we include inside that ego
so that love can become a purpose, which is to say feeling good is a purpose, if you get scared of a predator well then you dont feel good, if you eat something that makes you puke then you wont eat it again because it doesnt makes you feel good, if you have sex and it makes you feel good then you do it again...
even tho it stays on a unconscious level for most living things its still a mater of going toward what feels good
and as humans using a complex cultural language to define ourself we end up with very complex behavior that define what feels good
and stuff like praying to a god if that works for you is part of that
is that purposeless ?
you pray to god because it represent something good, if god was evil it would loose its purpose, and thats how many people feel because they feel that the abramic god is more of a ass than anything else
people care about good music, they care about good food, they care to hang out with good people, they try to have a good time, and if you cant care about the good then its time to kill yourself
but you dont need god to have the goods but you do need the goods
if the theory of evolution doesnt bring the goods to you then you can put it aside and see it as purposeless
and if religion dosent bring the good then you can put it aside and see it as purposeless

the theory of evolution is there for a purpose which is to connect us with the greater scheme of things, the more we can understand how things work the better our chance of survival or quality of life (not only in a philosophical sense but also in relation to all the new medecine we came up with thanks to our understanding of how things evolve)

you can look at a rock and think of it as one of your ancestor who ended up with a different path in life, you changed while he didnt, and thats pretty random
but does that make evolution (life) purposeless ?
your purpose is still to go towards whats good, on a sexual, emotional, cerebral, spiritual...whatever you think-believe is good
if you believe that god created the universe and also believe in the theory of evolution then you can believe that every step we take can bring us closer to god
can a rock feel the good, can it feel connected with the good ?
you can feel god because you evolved the ability to get connected with god, and your own internal life is evolving, and every step can bring you closer
if you believe in god then evolution is a good thing because it means that the evolution from rock to fish to monkey to cavemen to spiritually aware being always bring us closer to a communion with god, so that evolution becomes the gospel, its a good new, we are on our way towards god, towards the light, towards love and understanding...
but then do people believe in god or do they believe the bible or the torah or the quran... ?
can they read between the lines, can they read whats in their heart ?
is it about the scripture or what they might have being trying to portray
 
I don't get it when people say evolution is "purposeless" or "unguided". People that say this act like they know the purpose of the universe. Which is extremely ignorant even for the creationist. Evolution is just a umbrella term for change over time. I don't like people that hold the Theory of evolution with the same religious fervor as creationist hold the Bible.

Is it that hard to believe that "things" turn into other "things" and thats just how it is? Why does there have to be a muppet master?
 
CrackAndScrabble said:
I don't get it when people say evolution is "purposeless" or "unguided". People that say this act like they know the purpose of the universe. Which is extremely ignorant even for the creationist. Evolution is just a umbrella term for change over time. I don't like people that hold the Theory of evolution with the same religious fervor as creationist hold the Bible.

Is it that hard to believe that "things" turn into other "things" and thats just how it is? Why does there have to be a muppet master?
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Why a puppet master? Because:

1z1d6x2.jpg
 
CrackAndScrabble said:
Why does there have to be a muppet master?
Click to expand...

because people look for guidance, if a baby duck see a plastic duck post birth it can end up believing that the fake duck is actually his mom and follow it around
we are programed to follow whats going on, as kids we follow what our parents do, and our parents follow somethings else that follows something else and you can extrapolate toward the idea of a creator god that started it all

we have some art from 40 000 years ago where we would give human attributes to the animals we would hunt, some say its because we started to put ourself in the self on those animals to better predict their behavior
if that gets you better result when you are hunting then that gives you better chance at survival, better quality of life

we anthropomorphize natural phenomenon to feel more closely connected to them
if it gives you a better quality of life to turn natural phenomenon into a "muppet master" then thats why some people are gonna do it
 
So your saying there has to be a "puppet master" because we wouldn't know how to act? Or that there has to be a puppet master because we as humans can see things symbolically?

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that things happen, then humans try to explain it symbolically.

People will always be able to offer explanations for how things happen. The truth of their explanation doesn't matter. The reason I'm more in favor of evolution as an explanation of how things came to be than creationism is because evolution better recognizes patterns. I judge creation explanations by their ability to allow me to see how things came to be. I'm by no means some militant atheist that sucks Darwin's dick, I just value his theories more than religious theories. (Not to say religion and evolution are mutually exclusive though)

I'm a hard determinist so I don't believe in free will, so I'm kinda in a weird group being a non-religious determinist. I think the human body/mind is quite fallible so I don't believe we can have any absolute knowledge. All our ways of explaining the world is just for psychological comfort.
 
CrackAndScrabble said:
So your saying there has to be a "puppet master" because we wouldn't know how to act? Or that there has to be a puppet master because we as humans can see things symbolically?
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im not saying that there has to be
im saying that there is a reason why we came up with that
because like you said :

CrackAndScrabble said:
things happen, then humans try to explain it symbolically.
...
All our ways of explaining the world is just for psychological comfort.
Click to expand...



the creationist vs evolution debate is a non debate
it was a debate a hundred year ago when those ideas where new
but with dna sequencing and everything else we have accumulated since then there aren't any such thing as a "missing link" anymore
its solid science

the problem with creationist isnt the science its the result it leads to
thats what they disagree with,
they disagree from a emotional point of view, not from a cerebral one
they dont believe in creation from a intellectual stand point, they connect with it from their heart, they know its true from their heart, they have a connection with god from their heart
and if science comes up with something that goes against that then the science must be wrong
no mater what argument you use it aint gonna make them change their mind
what they need is a change of heart, they need emotional argument and science isnt gonna offer that
they need to understand how emotionally it could make sense to them, like how you said : "Not to say religion and evolution are mutually exclusive though"
they need to find evolution appealing, they dont need proof, they use faith, thats how their system work, thats how the heart works
they need to feel that evolution isnt making life any less "sacred" or any less purposeful
the problem is that the theory of evolution is presented by emotionless scientist with no skill in symbolism and poetry, but thats why they are scientist and thats needed
if they would hire a team of publicist to "sell" the idea then it could sound a lot different and become a whole lot more appealing to those who have a more emotional relationship with reality

the more you try to prove a creationist wrong the more likely he is gonna feel protective of his beliefs because he knows that he is right in his heart
so the more its about one side is right and the other is wrong the less we can actually move forward

so im saying there is no scientific debate over evolution, its a religious debate (and thats why this isnt in the science forum)

and when people are bringing scientific argument to "prove" evolution they promote the idea that there is still a (scientific) debate
and there really aint
 
I'm pretty sure that humans, as a species, are psychologically hardwired to believe in a greater power. After all, i'd say 99% of culture worldwide has gods, I can't think of any ancient culture that was atheist.
Once you get to a certain point of intelligence, and have the ability to question certain things, as humans did at some point in their evolutionary history, there become questions that don't have immediate answers. Obviously, an organism that is in a constant state of existential crisis isn't going to be in the best condition to hunt and survive etc., so the basic defence mechanism for unanswered questions is to create answers in the form of deities, as so many cultures already have done.
 
nAON said:
After all, i'd say 99% of culture worldwide has gods, I can't think of any ancient culture that was atheist.

Obviously, an organism that is in a constant state of existential crisis isn't going to be in the best condition to hunt and survive etc.
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ancient Chinese had no gods, early daoism is devoid of deities and the likes

existential crisis is what brought us forward as a species imo, not the other way around
thats what the neanderthal might have lacked and brought their demise while homo-sapiens ended up creating culture out of their common bounding in regards to that existential crisis they were experiencing
i think that this existential crisis help us define and constantly redefine our self a common identity trough language, be it art, pottery, body painting, body modification, dance, music...
 
nAON said:
I'm pretty sure that humans, as a species, are psychologically hardwired to believe in a greater power. After all, i'd say 99% of culture worldwide has gods, I can't think of any ancient culture that was atheist.
Once you get to a certain point of intelligence, and have the ability to question certain things, as humans did at some point in their evolutionary history, there become questions that don't have immediate answers. Obviously, an organism that is in a constant state of existential crisis isn't going to be in the best condition to hunt and survive etc., so the basic defence mechanism for unanswered questions is to create answers in the form of deities, as so many cultures already have done.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that humans, as a species, are psychologically hardwired to believe in a causation. After all, i'd say 100% of cultures world wide interact with our planet, I can't think of any ancient culture that didn't.
Once you get to a certain point of intelligence, and have the ability to question certain things, as humans did at some point in their evolutionary history, they realize forces/outcomes that they didn't create. Obviously, an organism that is in a constant state of existential crisis isn't going to be in the best condition to hunt and survive etc., so the basic defence mechanism for unanswered questions is to create answers in the form of deities, as so many cultures already have done. When in reality, Gods and Deities are the arrogant functions of ignorant people who are so base that they cannot understand that not everything is a product of a beings creation.

E.G. a god(being) pulls the sun around the earth vs the earth naturally orbits around the sun because it is trapped in it's gravitational pull.
 
CrackAndScrabble said:
I'm a hard determinism so I don't believe in free will, so I'm kinda in a weird group being a non-religious determinist. I think the human body/mind is quite fallible so I don't believe we can have any absolute knowledge. All our ways of explaining the world is just for psychological comfort.
Click to expand...

determinism became a false notion when the Heisenberg uncertainty principle was accepted.

1319012300.png


Sometimes I like to think that it was just a cop out because we as humans do not have the technology/brainpower to understand/calculate/formulate proper equations for it. But then I question why I continue living ad return to indeterminanism
 
I think evolution has a lot more evidence than a lot of religous theories/beliefs. Evolution is necessary for survival, and many examples in nature show it happens. Evolution is a very broad term that I believe should be broken down into categories on how it works. Basically I believe in evolution, and that evolution works in many different ways to make the animal more fit to survive.
 
it really doesn't have to be one or the other.

watch this for more info
inherit_the_wind[1].jpg
 
A higher power seems so likely it makes sense that people would believe in it. So much unanswered in science, our egos like to think we mean something. But deep down I believe their is now God. I dont believe in god, I believe a higher power, higher intelligence is very likely. All organisms are on a path for complete survival. Im sure one animal has accomplished survival, intelligence to a point of immortality i guess im saying? Maybe they could be a higher power..finally figuring out we dont mean anything and dieing and becoming energy is truly the goal in life.
 
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