Euthanasia: Mercy or Murder?

[Pariahprose]

What are your thoughts on the practice of euthanasia? Do u consider it mercy or murder? At what point or situation would u consider euthanasia of a loved one?Do u feel that you could euthanise somebody urself if needed 2 end their suffering?

I personally see nothing wrong with the concept,especially for those suffering to the point where they are unaware of reality this goes double for those who have already lived a long life.If someone has lived a long life and are suffering from Alzheimers and all treatments 2 slow its onset have either already been used or failed why not euthanise? They got 2 live a long life and probably dont even remember much of it.

As u can probably already tell,I consider it mercy. I have already gave one example of a situation but here are a couple more. If a loved one is in a coma and a vegetable for more than a wks time(ironic I should feel this way considering I was in a state like this for almost two wks one time,so based on my own belief I wud have pulled the plug,so I face a bit of a moral irony here,lol). When a person truly wants 2 die and cannot pull themselfs out of depression and have exhausted all options doctor assisted suicide is acceptable. If nothing else, those who receive euthanasia n the form of doctor assisted suicide are strengthing the gene pool by removing those from who it do not have the will 2 survive.

As for could I euthanise somebody who was suffering 2 the point where death would be the better option,my answer is yes. Nobody deserves 2 suffer in that manner not 2 mention the other genetic,economical,and social benefits of mercy killing. I just think the benefits outweigh the harms when not used in an abusive manner especially ppl who are disconnected from the world be it in a coma or due to alzheimers.The problem wud be to keep ppl from abusing a policy of euphanasia...

Pariahprose

 

[illustrious junk]

I think it's tricky. In principle I definitely support the right of the terminally ill to choose death. The problem is, people often change their minds, which you can't do when you're dead. Also there are real world complications like coercion, interpreting the wishes of the cognitively impaired etc.

If I had cancer or AIDS or something I'd try to stick it out. If I had Alzheimer's or Parkinson's I'd be right on that plane to Switzerland though, fuck that. Physical pain is one thing but I wanna die with my mind intact. Watching my grandfather slowly lose his marbles wasn't pretty.

When a person truly wants 2 die and cannot pull themselfs out of depression and have exhausted all options doctor assisted suicide is acceptable.

This is where I disagree. I've been suicidal before, now I thank God (metaphorically) that I didn't go through with it. If I'd had the option of a legally assisted painless death I might have. Like I said, people change their minds - imo offering assisted suicide to healthy but depressed people is a step too far.

 

[Pariahprose]

It was hard for me 2 put into words the part about suicide,this is already a tricky topic and this would probably be the trickiest part of the whole topic.I am not trying to recomend suicide to anyone.

Ya I could definately see the real world complications of coercion and interepting what cognitively impaired individuals want. However keep in mind I am only referring to the elderly who are cognitively impaired,not those who are younger. Could a person not put in their will that during the event of cognitive impairment that they b put out of their misery?

Pariahprose

 

[Abject]

Euthanasia is a joke.
If you want to kill yourself, the means are easily accessible.

 

[Pariahprose]

Euthanasia is a joke.
If you want to kill yourself, the means are easily accessible.

Question,how is a vegetable supposed 2 access the means by which 2 kill themselves? This is where euphanasia comes in. It is mercy killing. Killing those who wish to die(though this is much more complicated than simply that) and killing those whos quality of life and functionability is decreased to the point where 2 leave them suffering would b cruel and unusual.

Pariahprose

 

[Abject]

Stop drinking and eating. You'll be dead in a fortnight.
Roll yourself out of your window, or onto the highway, or some train tracks.
Shit man, it doesn't take much of an imagination to cease your existence.

 

[aussie101]

One should have the choice to end their existence on this planet. People should not be kept in vegetative states - they should be put out of their misery of lying in a bed for what would seem like an eternity...

 

[rickolasnice]

^ This.

 

[L2R]

quality over quantity, but where the line is drawn is entirely personal. making it overtly difficult for someone to take their life is wrong, but then how to do this without creating a situation which can be seen as encouraging suicide?

Stop drinking and eating. You'll be dead in a fortnight.
Roll yourself out of your window, or onto the highway, or some train tracks.
Shit man, it doesn't take much of an imagination to cease your existence.

you really don't get it, if you were as capable as you describe, then perhaps life would be worth living. people in actual vegetative states bad enough to want death are unable to even do these things. they have no control over their mobility. they are fed through tubes.

this is just physical disabilities, we haven't even considered mental incapacities.

 

[Abject]

The OP mentioned alzheimers.
There is a difference between stopping machines keeping someone alive (breathing for example) and giving someone a lethal substance to kill them.
The way I see it, if you want to die badly enough you will. If you're unable to do anything at all, cannot communicate your emotions whilst still being aware and feeling them,
you'd have to rely on the notion that mercy will be given to you.

Worth is subjective, and it has no relation to the ability to stop eating/drinking or mobility.
When you start talking about mental incapacities, you have to draw some line between correct and incorrect thought/state of mind.
You can't think for another, so if they don't express a certain desire it is simply wrong of you to take something away-
or is it?

idc

 

[L2R]

the mental degredation associated with alzheimers reduces one's capacity to say what they want, let along follow through on a suicide. it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

i am not putting my sense of worth onto others. my point is that the capacity to choose and enact self termination connotes ability and power, two traits not found in the contentious cases of euthanasia.

The way I see it, if you want to die badly enough you will.

the way you see it is wrong. you completely avoid the difficulty in this subject by painting all cases with a simple fallacious assertion.

 

[Abject]

You can't ignore that massive period where one is aware of their diagnosis and what it means, and is capable of acting upon things themselves.
If one lacks the desire to die (which is what you're implying, as ones whole demeanour is affected by it) then leave them be.
If they do, your entire point is irrelevant.

You haven't explained then, whilst someone is still mobile and feeding themselves, how my notion is fallacious.
If they cannot express their desire, assuming one wants to die is not enough grounds to kill them.

 

[L2R]

the period you mention is when treatment and hope in advances in treatment take precedence. euthanasia becomes valid when there is no hope.

it wasn't that long ago that a HIV+ diagnosis was an automatic death sentence. it aint the case any longer.

when you assert that anyone who wants to die can kill themselves, you ignore the massive proportion of patients who are either physically and/or mentally incapable of committing self termination. this is what makes your position false. you apply the capabilities of a few onto the many who simply do not have them.

Euthanasia is a joke.
If you want to kill yourself, the means are easily accessible.

rubbish.

 

[Abject]

Now you're going to invalidate euthanasia for those with 'hope'? You're going to use something that doesn't even exist outside of the mind to (in)validate ones decision to take their own life?

If one is physically incapable, that is one thing.
Mentally incapable? If one feels the desire (enough to do it), irrespective of all other affairs in the mind that desire would contribute to ones demeanour.
I don't understand where you're coming from, if one is mentally incapable are you trying to insinuate they lack the desire for it? And if not, what then?

Please explain to me how the means aren't accessible. Death happens when you stop doing things, you need to sustain your existence.
Life is the gamble, the challenge, the accessible. Death is the rule, it is what happens when you cease trying to prevent it.

 

[rickolasnice]

What if you wrote it down before you turned? And you never once stated that you'd changed your mind.

Has anyone asked someone with alzheimers if they want to die? They lack the capacity to think properly, about anything.. I know I'd want to die.

 

[L2R]

Now you're going to invalidate euthanasia for those with 'hope'? You're going to use something that doesn't even exist outside of the mind to (in)validate ones decision to take their own life?

If one is physically incapable, that is one thing.
Mentally incapable? If one feels the desire (enough to do it), irrespective of all other affairs in the mind that desire would contribute to ones demeanour.
I don't understand where you're coming from, if one is mentally incapable are you trying to insinuate they lack the desire for it? And if not, what then?

Please explain to me how the means aren't accessible. Death happens when you stop doing things, you need to sustain your existence.
Life is the gamble, the challenge, the accessible. Death is the rule, it is what happens when you cease trying to prevent it.

man, you really need it spelled out?

take an alzheimers sufferer for an example. decides to jump off a bridge. if they manage to remember how to get to a bridge, they may forget why they even went there and decide instead to go fishing or for a swim, something they've done many times before and is an intuitive thing to do.

that's just a memory deficit. there are mental disabilities which make it impossible for people to bath/clothe/feed themselves. how would someone like that simply will something as complicated as ending their lives? you might say that jumping off a building or refusing food or putting a gun to your head is simple, sure those acts are, but what they mean, what their intended purposes are not simple at all.

 

[Pariahprose]

man, you really need it spelled out?

take an alzheimers sufferer for an example. decides to jump off a bridge. if they manage to remember how to get to a bridge, they may forget why they even went there and decide instead to go fishing or for a swim, something they've done many times before and is an intuitive thing to do.

that's just a memory deficit. there are mental disabilities which make it impossible for people to bath/clothe/feed themselves. how would someone like that simply will something as complicated as ending their lives? you might say that jumping off a building or refusing food or putting a gun to your head is simple, sure those acts are, but what they mean, what their intended purposes are not simple at all.

He might need a picture as well...Lol... I can seriously see someone with alzheimers doing that though. It is more than a memory deficit though and does develop into a full blown mental disability (my grandmother had it and I watched her suffer all the way thru it,eventually it didnt even seem like she had control over many cognitive functions at all).

But u really are missing the point Abject...ppl that are that far gone are unable 2 make the conscious decision to kill themselves much less carry out with it...It is even hard for some ppl who are consciously aware and unaffected by mental disability 2 make the conscious decision for suicide and carry it out...We are not creatures whos nature, for the majority at least, is 2 wish 2 commit suicide.It is quite the opposite,we wish 2 survive and thrive. If suicide really is that simple of an act to u for someone 2 commit Abject, then we are all staring at a good example of Darwinism n the sense that ur simplicity makes u more unfit 2 survive bc if u cannot understand concepts of death then u are unlikely 2 understand concepts of life and what it takes 2 survive...

Btw,when I first mentioned someone being a vegetable,did u think I was talking about one of the characters off of the kids show veggie tales? If so,then yes, those vegetables cud very easily commit suicide...

Pariahprose

 

[Abject]

So if they get to the bridge and no longer feel the desire to kill themselves, let them live. If ones desire is fleeting, it shouldn't be put into action for the mere permanence of it all.

If one can't make the decision to end their own life, it is wrong of you to take their life from them.

I don't see how the simple truth of inevitable death needing to be kept at bay with food, water, etc as being an example of Darwinism.
This has no affect whatsoever on my ability to survive, nor my understanding of anything.
I don't care for euthanasia, I think it's a cop out. Death isn't something that has to be brought to you with a smile on it's face and chocolates to get that bad taste out of your mouth.

Anyway, since you've failed to make a decent point by now (was actually expecting more from you lefty) I'm just gonna cut my losses and leave you guys to enjoy this discussion without me.

 

[P A]

take an alzheimers sufferer for an example. decides to jump off a bridge. if they manage to remember how to get to a bridge, they may forget why they even went there and decide instead to go fishing or for a swim, something they've done many times before and is an intuitive thing to do.

So if they get to the bridge and no longer feel the desire to kill themselves, let them live. If ones desire is fleeting, it shouldn't be put into action for the mere permanence of it all.

As I see it, the biggest difficulty lies in determining (with a satisfactory degree of confidence) just how sincere any given individual may be re. their intentions to end their own life. At any rate, there do exist a decent variety of 'objective' scales measuring the severity of neurodegenerative conditions like dementia. Thus, if the real issue is "When do we euthanize?," irrespective of the patient's 'wishes,' then there should be little difficulty determining (presumably by fiat) at what point the individual in question should be regarded as a borderline vegetable without hope of recovery. In that instance, I fail to see what disadvantage euthanasia could possibly present, so long as the decision was left to any surviving family member(s).

The suicide sketch, on the other hand, is a little misleading because it invokes the contentious issue of concerted volition in the context of neuropsychiatric illness. If I were to happen upon an Alzheimer's patient near the edge of a bridge (and somehow discerned that they had Alzheimer's) I would certainly have to think fast and hard before committing myself to intervening (or not intervening). The hairy question remains, "How qualified could such a person possibly be to make such a significant decision on their own behalf?"

 

[Shrooms00087]

Unless they state their wishes beforehand I would never be comfortable making any such decision