Ethics of 25x-NBOMe availability

[Spooky Snacks]

The vendors are responsible for the product they are selling but it is also the consumers implied obligation to educate themselves on what dose of said substance would be apropiate and if this is even the type of trip they are looking for...

When people who don't have the proper knowledge take drugs bad things happen, that is just the way it goes.

Just because somebody decided to iv a gram of pure h and died doesn't mean that Afghan heroin suppliers should stop growing opium you know?

... Or even make it unethical

 

[boardsofcanada]

I think the only people to blame here are the scumbags who sell this as LSD and the dumbasses who don't research a drug properly before they consume it.

Exactly. The online vendors sell chemicals as what they actually are (for the most part, and those that don't are quickly exposed). There usually is only a problem when a drug is sold as something else or when the person buying does not fully understand the chemical.

 

[OPANAMONIUM]

It all comes down to taking responsibility for your own actions. Vendors dont put a gun to your head and make you buy their chemicals and ingest them. Anyone who takes the time to find a vendor and then order drugs from them should already know something about what they are ordering.

We all know that theres always going to be the dumbasses that ruin it for everyone else but you really cant place the blame on vendors.

 

[bluedolphin]

Exactly. Things like this happen. Not all of us are privileged enough to know people who consistently have good LSD. It seems to come to my town in waves, and because it is scarce, it gets bought up extremely fast before enough people can try it and get the word out. Personally, I've never tried to get LSD and ended up with something else. However, I could easily see this happening. Ultimately, it is the buyers responsibility to figure it out, but accidents happen. I would hate to see the scene get to the point where the MDMA scene is now, where the majority of stuff is bunk or cut and a test kit is basically a necessity. And also, it is entirely possible that the people laying blotters could cut the LSD with an NBOMe to save money, as this would be much harder for people to tell the difference.

As I said before, I'm not advocating that vendors stop selling it because that won't happen. However, I can definitely seeing this negatively effecting the LSD market for years to come.

If you don't taste-test a blotter... or spit it out immediately upon noticing a horrible bitter chemical taste, it's your own fault for being ignorant.

People should not experiment with any drug without researching it adequately first. And it's well known that LSD has very little flavor ... slightly metallic if anything at all.

Also your suggestion that people may be cutting LSD with NBOMe series chemicals is absurd. Nobody who has access to LSD would risk pissing off their customers by cutting it with anything. LSD simply does not get cut because most people who have access to real LSD are not scumbags and they respect the drug they are selling.

The same can't be said for cocaine dealers, but we are talking about two very different kinds of drugs.

Also NBOMe series drugs work poorly, if at all, if you just swallow them. Which is what a lot of people do with LSD blotters. So it would be a retarded waste of NBOMe to even consider cutting LSD with it.

 

[QuasiModo]

I knew this would piss some people off but I had quite enough stories of either NBOMe's being misrepresented or apparent overdose that day. If any industry could be self regulated I think its the RC industry. Theres simply too much of a void in supply of LSD for it not to happen.. It saddens me to accept it as fact but I don't think its possible for end users to be trusted with something so potent, the dose respose curve is steep unlike LSD. I dont mean to say that they shouldn't be experimented with, certainly with time a generation of responsible users could arise.. Perhaps even some useful place in society, but another acid replacement is all it will end up as in the foreseeable future.

Maybe I'm just jaded because LSD is easily accessible to me.. I can't get MDMA though and I never reached for methylone.. Its just wicked to me, knowing the agegroup of LSD users as well. I first tried LSD when I was 16, blind luck thankfully landing us some real LSD and not some DOx.. How many 16 year olds will have it sold to them as LSD and seizure the fuck out because another 16 year old laid the fucking sheet? Ultimately its in the hands of the end user, which spells distaster in my eyes.. The vendors and lab have shrugged off the responsibility for the almighty profit margin.

 

[folding_space]

Exerting power over people will not save them from themselves. This approach to structuring society is the reason why these same kids can't go into a store and buy tabs of real LSD in the first place.

 

[kingme]

This is just one of those neverending discussions. As long as something is available to some, it is available to all, so just limiting the people that have access to chems will not work. So you are left with banning them altogether (which can save some from encountering them, but at the same time pushes the market into more dangerous realms) or leaving them out in the open (and hope people will educate themselves). Unfortunately, governments rarely put as much effort in education as they do in reenforcement of laws.

actually, what i think might limit the amount of people who have access is price. just sell these babies for more than lsd/2cb/whatever, so it isnt worth being put to blotter and passed as something else, and yet the ones with true interest might still aquire them. there no reason to have ultrapotent chems at discount prices.

 

[OTGee]

NBOMe compounds are one of the only easily available, legal compounds that are available readily in the UK. Tbh im suprissed head shops havent been selling this yet but I don't think they ever will. Everyone seems to be scarred about bad press now that every single idiot has tried an RC and will go into a store to buy them. I just wish it was still a little bit more underground so stuff like this could be offered by more mainstream vendors which always just seems safer then buying from some company in the middle of europe or asia. I hope the NBOMe's become more widespread here in the UK as the only other readily avilable substance is aMT which is more of a once in a very blue moon kind of thing. Ive only tried the NBOMe once but had a very enjoyable trip (kind of), wasn't the best though although it was very very interesting and different to other things I have tried.

 

[PandaGun]

When I was younger I was definitely sold an Nbome as LSD. It makes economical sense to do so. No sourcing but you are looking at around 750-1000ug for 5 quid. Sell the tab at 10 quid as blow your socks off acid etc. I was sold it in a sugar cube and I thought it was weak acid until my mate said you are WAY too sped up to be on acid. Which was true but I was too young to know better. If I were to pick up 25-c Nbome however, I would go to a house and have a liquid intranasal hit which was apparently 650ug and my god all I can say is that is what bass is made for. The visuals were just ridiculous!

 

[Solipsis]

I changed the thread title and the phrasing of the start of the OP to make this fit with our policy, still then it barely does.
This question or topic touches a deep and long debate about how liberal we should be about drug availability and whose responsibility it is that extremely novel drugs are taken.
If you want my opinion: I think the reality of it is too complex too put the reponsibility with only one party. I think most involved parties have responsibility to educate and inform, that we cannot put the reponsibility solely with the users of the drugs because of the existence of ignorance alone but neither does responsibility belong solely with the sources because we have to be held accountable for our own actions on some level at all times. At the very least one must understand that these are uncommon drugs, that should tell you something: that there are many more questions unanswered than for regular street drugs the properties of which are more easily manageable and understandable for laymen and often taken for granted.

 

[killermunchies]

If you don't taste-test a blotter... or spit it out immediately upon noticing a horrible bitter chemical taste, it's your own fault for being ignorant.

People should not experiment with any drug without researching it adequately first. And it's well known that LSD has very little flavor ... slightly metallic if anything at all.

Also your suggestion that people may be cutting LSD with NBOMe series chemicals is absurd. Nobody who has access to LSD would risk pissing off their customers by cutting it with anything. LSD simply does not get cut because most people who have access to real LSD are not scumbags and they respect the drug they are selling.

The same can't be said for cocaine dealers, but we are talking about two very different kinds of drugs.

Also NBOMe series drugs work poorly, if at all, if you just swallow them. Which is what a lot of people do with LSD blotters. So it would be a retarded waste of NBOMe to even consider cutting LSD with it.

LSD is actually somewhat bitter, at least according to Shulgin in Pihkal. Also, LSD tabs won't always taste the same because of other things that are on the tab that aren't active drugs. And considering that NBOMe blotters are already being passed off as LSD, I wouldn't be surprised if someone decided to mix the two and make tons of money. I can't talk about specific prices here, but we both know a dose of most of the NBOMe's costs a tiny fraction of a dose of LSD.

You are also making a very broad generalization by stating that people who sell LSD aren't scumbags. LSD isn't always put on blotter at the top of the drug dealer food chain. Some idiot with a relatively cheap vial could mix anything they want. Trust me, I've seen plenty of people walking around with vials of acid that can't even properly measure doses. These people aren't all saints. Also, if the NBOMe is complexed, it can be absorbed much better. It would work if you put it under your tongue like many people do with LSD.

I do agree with you that buyers should figure out what they have before consuming anything. However, that could possibly become a more difficult task. In a year or two, LSD test kits may become much more common-place. Think about it. DOx chemicals have been passed off as LSD for a while now, and they are much less similar to LSD than some of the NBOMe's. NBOMe's are also insanely cheap compared to pretty much everything. I hope you're right, but people (drug dealers included) will often get blinded by dollar signs.

 

[Mugz]

NBOMe compounds are one of the only easily available, legal compounds that are available readily in the UK. Tbh im suprissed head shops havent been selling this yet but I don't think they ever will. Everyone seems to be scarred about bad press now that every single idiot has tried an RC and will go into a store to buy them. I just wish it was still a little bit more underground so stuff like this could be offered by more mainstream vendors which always just seems safer then buying from some company in the middle of europe or asia. I hope the NBOMe's become more widespread here in the UK as the only other readily avilable substance is aMT which is more of a once in a very blue moon kind of thing. Ive only tried the NBOMe once but had a very enjoyable trip (kind of), wasn't the best though although it was very very interesting and different to other things I have tried.

I'm pretty sure uk vendors don't stock the stuff is because there is likely to be trace amounts of the 2C-X compounds in the final product that there would be a significant legal risk importing to the uk.

On topic and kind of related, i'm glad this doesn't get sold by mainstream vendors alongside 'benzo fury' 8) If that happens then I will also be on your side about the ethics, but because of the meph kids generation though.

 

[Dr. Drugs]

Its just wicked to me, knowing the agegroup of LSD users as well. I first tried LSD when I was 16, blind luck thankfully landing us some real LSD and not some DOx.. How many 16 year olds will have it sold to them as LSD and seizure the fuck out because another 16 year old laid the fucking sheet? Ultimately its in the hands of the end user, which spells distaster in my eyes.. The vendors and lab have shrugged off the responsibility for the almighty profit margin.

Ain't that the fucking truth.

This actually happened to me a few years ago, when I was 18. I took 4 blotter hits of "acid" purchased in Northeast Ohio by a friend and ended up with a SERIOUS overdose of some unknown RC. Based on the timing and a number of other factors, I think it was bromo-dragonfly but there's no way I can know for sure. In addition to being an overly potent psychedelic, the chemical was an extreme vasoconstrictor. My lips were *blue* and I was acting all kinds of crazy.

Whatever it was, it wasn't LSD; I've had real acid before and since then and never had a bad experience. I'm just lucky that my friends had the sense to get me to the ER, where I got an injection of an antipsychotic and came down right quick. I don't even remember most of the trip or being taken to the hospital. It was literally the worst experience of my life.

 

[HofmannBlotter]

Ain't that the fucking truth.

This actually happened to me a few years ago, when I was 18. I took 4 blotter hits of "acid" purchased in Northeast Ohio by a friend and ended up with a SERIOUS overdose of some unknown RC. Based on the timing and a number of other factors, I think it was bromo-dragonfly but there's no way I can know for sure. In addition to being an overly potent psychedelic, the chemical was an extreme vasoconstrictor. My lips were *blue* and I was acting all kinds of crazy.

Whatever it was, it wasn't LSD; I've had real acid before and since then and never had a bad experience. I'm just lucky that my friends had the sense to get me to the ER, where I got an injection of an antipsychotic and came down right quick. I don't even remember most of the trip or being taken to the hospital. It was literally the worst experience of my life.

Feel sorry for you man. Got exactly the same shit! A scumbag sold me "super acid" which was BromoDragonFLY back in 2009. I just took one hit and nothing happened after 4 fucking hours! I thought I've been ripped off so took another blotter and it send me into a psychotic state and in a full overdose mode (Blue lips like you, 200 BPM, blood pressure rising to the sky). Requires hospitalization / life-support for 2 days! My left feet went black due to the vasocontrictives effects.

Now due to this, I mainly have bad experiences while tripping, I started worrying when I have a bodyload I don't like and send me into full panic mode.

Fuck that shit !

 

[huolesoh]

i point the finger at whomever discovered this in the first place - surely it is shamefully predictable what will happen if you release the information as to it's existence and how it's made, to the public and an unregulated market

however, on a bigger picture level, this is nothing compared to how Einstein must have felt having discovered nuclear - the world is wired up to detonate

 

[Coolio]

I agree with the OP, but capitalism is a bitch sometimes. Also, the damage has already been done. 1 kilo of this stuff has 2,000,000 doses and many kilos have been sold. There is enough of this stuff out there already to be passed off as acid for years. It's unfortunate because it can fit on blotters, is insanely cheap per dose, and has a duration similar to acid. It's also more dangerous because doubling or trippling the dose (e.g. taking two or three tabs) can cause an overdose, where acid is pretty damn safe.

Except an Ehrlich's reagent test will tell you instantly that it's not LSD. You have to be a fool to get sold fake LSD. Reagent test it just like you would E pills.

 

[Jesusgreen]

When I was younger I was definitely sold an Nbome as LSD. It makes economical sense to do so. No sourcing but you are looking at around 750-1000ug for 5 quid. Sell the tab at 10 quid as blow your socks off acid etc. I was sold it in a sugar cube and I thought it was weak acid until my mate said you are WAY too sped up to be on acid. Which was true but I was too young to know better. If I were to pick up 25-c Nbome however, I would go to a house and have a liquid intranasal hit which was apparently 650ug and my god all I can say is that is what bass is made for. The visuals were just ridiculous!

These NBOMe compounds have only came about in the last few years. I suspect if you were sold something other than LSD in the past it was likely a DOx compound.

I think it's unethical to sell this at all to anyone who might pass it on without labelling it correctly both in terms of substance and dose.. Unfortunately for research chemical vendors this is something they can't really police, so they either have the choice of selling it or not selling it - which is harder to weigh up. Personally I wouldn't sell it, but these are businesses looking to make money, and I feel that if they believe the majority of their users are using safely they're okay to provide it.

It's a shame that the law forces these grey area vendors to be very sneaky about their shops and doesn't allow them to provide dosage advice and other harm reduction information. If they were able to provide these things a LOT fewer people would get hurt.

 

[49 Osc/Sec]

Mmmmph. Seems to me the only real way to sort out this problem would be for governments to legalize and then closely monitor all businesses, suppliers, and chemists involved in the operations. Frequently testing for consistency in labeling and high standards of purity. The system of regulations that would need to take place is far out of the scale of my imagination but it seems to me the only proper fix at this point. Too many people have access to the information necessary to create and distribute these chemicals now. No matter how illegal they are and no matter the punishment. You'll never legislate the curiosity out of humans.

 

[cyberius]

Not going to happen anytime soon. I'm not saying prices, but one dose is less than a tenth the price of acid, and acid is not expensive.

 

[trogere]

I think this class of drug is too much available. It needs experienced people with high-end lab stuff to play with µg dose drugs. The potential for major errors and mortal ODs is too big.