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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Economy Entitlements (aka welfare) and the working poor: lazy or other factors involved?

That's what I don't understand. Why the insistence that humans are lazy? Have you seen the shit we make and work on every single day? Have you looked at productivity numbers rising every year? Humans are perfectly capable of running things. You don't need millionaires to fund your business, you just need people.

When feudalism ended labor became much more specialized. Everyone doing one task. Before that if you needed a tool, you built it yourself. You learned how to do a little bit of everything, because you had to survive. I'm hardly saying we should return to feudalism, but the specialization of labor has turned everyone into a unthinking cog in the machine of global capitalism. Unless you own your business, you have little control over your work.

What I'm ultimately getting at, is that people do not need the threat of poverty to work, because they are already being threatened by the outcome of them not getting shit done. You know what happens when your electrician calls out? Someone else steps up and learns how to do it. Why?? Because they need electricity to live.

I am not saying people should all be held to a bare minimum standard. You can have your business because you'd just be serving the working class instead. You might even learn something new with all the extra time you have.

How much do we produce that just goes in the trash? Or the ocean? How much food? Just imagine what could happen if all that wasted labor was actually harnessed to benefit society as opposed to magic paper the State tells you is valuable.

Sure, maybe we won't see a perfect world in our lifetime. But believe me, we need to start working on something. Because that automation shit IS coming and millions will be unemployed. If we don't step up and start to understand the nature of work and productivity in a more nuanced fashion, we are all going to be starving. It starts with trade unions and workers rights. But it can't end there. This is crucial stuff.
You are making good points.

Especially the tradition of "learning a bit of everything" is one that is still hold very dear here. We usually learn a bit of everything in our education. I even enjoy making my own furniture (I have a carpenter's workshop in my attic). A well-rounded skillset is something that can only be beneficial

But I'm just not as optimistic about the specific outcome of such a scenario. Maybe after years of working towards the "event", but not as a "this could work tomorrow".

I see a world full of automatons as the world where your scenario is the norm :D I really don't see the problem. Unless they're AI

If those low paying jobs don't serve a purpose then why do it? If it needs to be done, someone will do it. Our productivity outsizes our demand so much that if 35% of people didn't work tomorrow, we would still produce way more than we could possibly use.

Humans rely on each other to produce the needs of society. We don't need a managerial class to run our workplaces and government. We're perfectly capable.
Those are not the workers I worry about.
I worry about medical workers, police, medical workers, fire "brigade"(?how's this called), medical workers, people working at nuclear powerplants, and also I really worry about medical workers. Homes, hospitals, they are always understaffed and overworked.

O to clarify: when I said "low end" in this specific context, I meant "All work and no play", not low paying, just shitloads of work(especially of the highly physical variety, or super stressful on the nerves like it is for medical workers)
 
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the labor market is just a donkey fest, work for slave wage and put out tons of effort that basically you have to shoot heroin to continue doing, and businesses want it all, they want you to be oncall and have a great car and work 24/7 and all the rest of it. its too bad people don't give a fuck and the people and working environments at those places suck ass

I laugh when the middle class says you have to like plan and prepare to set up and come up, you should want to become middle class right? huh? WTF? who are these people? you do know shit is fake as fuck right? blue collar don't give a fuck if you live or die middle class. when grandma falls in the home, you know what? aint nobody got time for that!
 
the labor market is just a donkey fest, work for slave wage and put out tons of effort that basically you have to shoot heroin to continue doing, and businesses want it all, they want you to be oncall and have a great car and work 24/7 and all the rest of it. its too bad people don't give a fuck and the people and working environments at those places suck ass

I laugh when the middle class says you have to like plan and prepare to set up and come up, you should want to become middle class right? huh? WTF? who are these people? you do know shit is fake as fuck right? blue collar don't give a fuck if you live or die middle class. when grandma falls in the home, you know what? aint nobody got time for that!
Shit fake af
 
I find it slightly fucked-up that welfare-fraud puts you in jail for longer here than say rape or aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Hey-yo, go money.
Does it? I didn't realize that, crazy.
 
I mean no one got paid fiat currency to hunt elk and gather plants in prehistoric times. Best believe people still ate though. That's because we aren't as atomized as modern capitalism wants us to be. We are naturally a communal and cooperative species.

We are a communal and cooperative species. That is very true. But I think the idea of reciprocity is baked into us as well. The idea that if I scratch your back today, you'll scratch mine tomorrow. So people do get sensitive to the idea of freeloaders who don't reciprocate in a general way by actively participating in society/community while still taking the benefits that society has to offer.

But reciprocity is not the same thing thing as trade or barter, such as exchanging labour for money. There is a kind of moral element to it as well. If the community looks out for me when I'm down then I am morally obliged to give back to the community when I'm back on my feet. Same deal if the community enables me to succeed extraordinarily in some way. Then I'm indebted to the community.

From a distance it looks like the Western world is losing sense of a community in which individuals care for and nurture one another as individuals in the interests of a stronger whole that works better for everyone. Everything is a zero sum game.
 
But I think the idea of reciprocity is baked into us as well.
There is a concept called reciprocal altruism in some schools of philosophical thought. People who believe in reciprocal altruism argue that there is no such thing as genuine altruism because all acts of altruism in an interdependent society are essentially done with the expectation that someone else will act altruistically in return. It is essentially all transactional, and thus none of it is truly altruistic at all.

From a distance it looks like the Western world is losing sense of a community in which individuals care for and nurture one another as individuals in the interests of a stronger whole that works better for everyone.
If you're interested in this line of thought, do a few searches on the differences between indexical vs referential identity and communalist vs individualist society. It's pretty well studied and is what you're stumbling onto here with your line of thought. To answer your question, western society is a pretty extreme example of an individualist society, its members with referential identities.
 
People who believe in reciprocal altruism argue that there is no such thing as genuine altruism because all acts of altruism in an interdependent society are essentially done with the expectation that someone else will act altruistically in return. It is essentially all transactional, and thus none of it is truly altruistic at all.

related reading: there is no such thing as a selfless act

alasdair
 
You're so right.
I don't think there's any "good" and "selfless" beings, not in that sense. If we do something good, it is often to feel better about ourselves deep down. The person we're helping is just a tool for us to feel better.

I try to help people and do good things every day, but I still think I'm selfish for that. For example I buy a homeless man here a carton of milk every week. I give a lot of my money out to others, saying I'll lend them the money, but never asking back for it, giving them the choice to pay me back or not. I try to clean the park of a few cigarettes and broken pieces of glass every day.

But I do all this stuff to feel better about myself. If I'm being fully honest here.
Maybe thinking that karmic law will somehow reward me for my deeds.
Maybe the person I helped will help me at some other point.
I just know there's no innocent angle about this. I help because there's something to be gained, and if it's just positive Karma.
 
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