Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[max_freakout]

I did say oral DMT troz - smoked DMT is trickier because it's hard to master the smoking technique. I guarantee I can make anyone on earth breakthrough on oral DMT. I give you DMT and moclobemide and you break through - there's nothing mystical about it.

The expression "breakthrough" is totally meaningless, it just means the same as 'trip'? So when you take DMT you trip, big suprise...

 

[swilow]

and final

....or is it?

Half of this thread is comparing apples to oranges and the other half eloquently showcases different pronunciations possible for the word tomato.

Now there is one thing that is left for some discussion in here...

Does one have to listen to someone with a big ego discuss the beliefs and opinions of others that they disagree with or can that person simply tone down the fucking ego and quit the banter or will those who have their ego toned down a bit more be able to keep discussing the topic?

The only other thing I have to question is whether or not a person believes they are connected to others enough to say they are in essence the same as them and thus believe we are all one and many at the same time. We are all experiencing things together but we do so subjectively.

To be or not to be...

To infinity and beyond...

To be continued...

Great post

 

[Jonneh]

Come off it will - an ego-death isn't as valid as being blind. It's more akin to an evangelical christian telling me that God exists because he's experienced it. I still don't believe him.

The difference is that those Christians are making metaphysical claims on the basis of their experiences - 'I experienced a feeling of God, therefore God exists'. The psychedelic user does no such thing, and merely claims that 'I had an ego-death experience, therefore that is what I experienced'. Only if it is claimed that consciousness became non-local, for example, do you have a point in objecting to their conclusions.

Whatever 'ego' really means, it is an intuitively intelligible concept: that which cocaine inflates, and psychedelics quell, which in the businessmen is dominant, in the schizophrenic subordinate. There are plenty of analogous concepts in neuroscience. I've never had one of these 'ego-deaths', but it seems like a reasonable concept, and an independently reproduced experience, to whatever degree it means the same thing among individuals.

 

[Xorkoth]

I wonder if the Steinburg depersonalization screening test is still valid. I know mpd is a former disorder for dissociative trauma states, although this is not generally specific to drug use, but not necessarily ... when trauma was part of use itself.

Regardless, on another note:
'Who' is the witness to the ego death during these experiences mentioned above I wonder. Just as identity confusion plays a role in it-self.

If one is an observer of oneself and notices this … who is doing the noticing ?

The core observer independent of the trappings of the individual life-form experiencing it. I think of it as the universal force of consciousness of which I believe we all are. Yet normally, that consciousness is enmeshed in an organism's brain which causes it to experience itself subjectively as an individual, separate from everything else. For me this has been the most profound aspect of psychedelic experiences, realizing that consciousness is something greater than the self, which is the same thing that we all are. We're all the same at the core, yet different because of our individual bodies/minds. At least, that's the conclusion I have come to. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am, as that was my experience, on multiple occasions.

The expression "breakthrough" is totally meaningless, it just means the same as 'trip'? So when you take DMT you trip, big suprise...

I don't know, for me a breakthrough indicates an experience in which you transcend normal experience entirely and experience something so utterly different that it changes your perspective. Most of the time when I trip, this does not happen. It's never happened to me on smoked DMT, when I smoke it, I have an intense trip but I remain fully aware of my normal self. A "breakthrough" can be different depending on the substance. I think breakthrough is an even more vague term than ego loss/death though. A lot of the time for me, such an experience involves a feeling of "I've been here before, I can't believe I forgot about this". I'd call an experience of profound ego loss a breakthrough experience but it doesn't necessarily mean ego loss, to me.

Okay so terms can be confusing. But what else are we to do if we're going to talk about these experiences? Fully describe every detail every time? Blanket terms are useful in discussion.

 

[pmoseman]

It seems clear that psychedelics can be the source of religious experience and have theoretically been so for a great time.

Try not to assume others are devoid of intellect or reason; these are real experiences.

The question is if the similar descriptions are merely coincidental. Every event must have explanation and individual experiences may occur for the same reason but do not share the same interpretation.

Without any known explanation I had a hallucination of my spiritual death and awakening. Connecting it with some other's experience was desired and there were definite qualifications to that goal based on my experience, not based on a prior description Following the search it now seems common among psychedelic users.

I do not believe I can recall the experience accurately and that others described it in a different way than I would have, but there was a connection.

My disagreement is that no experience should be glorified as penultimate or a mark of excellence. What we are taking about is all subjective and the only objective evidence is a description. The claim of benefit or supernatural cause is tenuous.

What explanation is simpler than this?

 

[Ismene]

The difference is that those Christians are making metaphysical claims on the basis of their experiences - 'I experienced a feeling of God, therefore God exists'.

But whether or not God actually exists isn't important - the important bit is that they choose to interpret the same experience in a different way. So if I lose a loved one I interpret it in a way that doesn't involve God, whereas a Christian involves God. In the same way, if I get into a heavy duty trip I won't interpret it by thinking that I'm dying. The only time death crosses my mind during a trip is when I think of people I've lost.

I've never had one of these 'ego-deaths', but it seems like a reasonable concept

Not to me it doesn't. I agree that other people can experience whatever they want to experience. The bit I disagree with is that this will inevitably happen to me simply because it happened to them. That suddenly, on my 1001st trip, everything will be completely different to the previous 1000 trips and I'll cry out "i think I'm dying dude". That ain't gonna happen.

 

[theacidtest]

For me, ego death has never included the idea that I'm actually dying. In my experience, what I would call ego death was an intense experience of oneness with the universe, a dissolving of the boundaries between self and everything else as well as a loss of awareness of my own existence as an individual entity.

Call that what you will, I honestly don't find the terminology to be very important. It was a profound experience, one that I can't reliably replicate through a certain dose.

 

[Ismene]

I've definately experienced that acidtest - I experience that pretty much every time I trip. I'm still perfectly aware that I'm high on a psychedelic tho.

 

[theacidtest]

I've definately experienced that acidtest - I experience that pretty much every time I trip. I'm still perfectly aware that I'm high on a psychedelic tho.

And that would be the difference, for me there has been one occasion where I was tripping so hard on acid that I no longer had any idea of who or what I was, let alone that I was on a psychedelic. It was a brief but very profound experience, similar in intensity and depersonalization to my most intense smoked DMT experience.

But in general, I feel that you're mostly right. I find a lot of people basically grasping at straws and calling their experience ego death simply because they've heard the term before. Profound experiences are difficult to describe with language, especially when everyone's experiences differ so greatly.

 

[Jonneh]

The bit I disagree with is that this will inevitably happen to me simply because it happened to them. That suddenly, on my 1001st trip, everything will be completely different to the previous 1000 trips and I'll cry out "i think I'm dying dude". That ain't gonna happen.

If your 1001st trip is 5000 micrograms of LSD or 50 grams of dried mushrooms, perhaps you will. Your being strong of mind moves you up the scale, no doubt, but I think these experiences are simply what happens when certain networks in the brain (those responsible for the sense of self) are sufficiently compromised (or otherwise 'modified'). Perhaps, at that level, fear of dying is the ego-circuit's instability, and at a higher level, defence against threatening changes in consciousness (losing your ego on a hungry savannah is bad news). Either way (or any other way), I think it's possible to recognise what one's sense of self and control of reality feels like, and recognise when one's losing it.

I've definately experienced that acidtest - I experience that pretty much every time I trip. I'm still perfectly aware that I'm high on a psychedelic tho.

Less aware, maybe? Sliding scale, albeit with points of non-linearity?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

The expression "breakthrough" is totally meaningless, it just means the same as 'trip'?

The term "breakthrough" connotes a qualitatively different experience, which is not consistent with, or at least not intuitively an extension of, the normal set of experiences with their sliding scale of intensity based upon dosage. In PD terms, think DMT hyperspace, dissociative holes (by the strictest definition), and anticholinergic delirium.

m still perfectly aware that I'm high on a psychedelic tho.

I don't think that I've lost awareness that I am high on a psych, but I certainly do when I take a large enough dose of a dissociative, and I love it so.


Actually, in light of that, I think that I can accept that as the keystone quality of ego death. Let the rest of the description vary as it may. That is, if y'all can't agree that this is indeed the case.

the other half eloquently showcases different pronunciations possible for the word tomato.

Why are we talking about nightshade berries?

 

[pmoseman]

They have been able to, in repeatable experiments, get a high yield of people claiming to have religious experience while on psychedelics in a relaxed environment listening to profound music. Maybe you won't have one Ismene but there are gobs of evidence; you cannot simply dismiss it as a conspiracy.

Case 1. People black out completely from drinking and do lots of stuff, yet remember nothing.

Case 2. People can have dreams where they don't think they're dreaming.

Case 3. People have DMT trips, commonly, and completely forget where they are and what they are doing.

Case 4. People have near death experiences.

So the question is not whether people have these kind of experiences but whether psychedelics can trigger a specific kind of experience.

All the elements are there from the previous cases to suggest ego-death is a possible experience.

In each previous cases: blackout, dreams, NDE, age so on, there are similarities between individual experiences of the same sort, because people are profoundly similar on an evolutionary scale.

Everyone is using the same chemicals.

It makes perfect sense everyone is having the same experience.

Whereas you take the question of Satan. You do NOT have gobs of evidence that such a thing actually exists. People may see Satan but that may just be dreams, not a real actual thing.

You are dismissing accounts of an experience as nothing more than a shared symbolism, like Satan. Denying that people ever see Satan is... well, the question is not whether they do or not, but whether they would without the idea planted in their head already. This a chicken and egg problem.

I would say Satan is an allegory that fills many rolls, if we lost Satan there would be something to replace him as needed. Like Greek vs Latin mythology mixing and matching aspects of Gox.

As far as the ego-death experience, in my case there were elements that seem to match ego-death but my description does not match with everyone else's. Firstly, no psychedelics. Secondly, it was brief. Thirdly, it was an intense white light. Fourthly, it was followed by mental illness and depression.

But there was definitely death and the ego, although I do not like using this term this way, I can see how it could be described as losing your ego. Blargh.

So if those two are what qualify an ego-death then that seems to be my case. I certainly had ideas planted in my mind about seeing something did but at the same time it was fairly intense unexpected thing and a profound result, not just something entirely coincidental. What surrounds the experience is like a dream, something the mind uses as a buffer zone; not fixed realities.

 

[Mudshark]

I have experienced what I suspect is called " Ego Death " number of times when in a deep psychedelic state of ecstatic bliss , and feeling very grateful and humbled by the experience ; and a feeling of being wired into the universe - connected to the cosmic life force , and everyone , every thing , and every creature in existence in the past , present and future ....

I think it may be similar to ecstatic blissful Hindu [ ? ] consciousness states of " Sartori " ; or Buddhist " Enlightenment " , Christian " Divine Love " , etc , - all the same thing with different names for a state of profound love , ecstatic bliss , and extraordinary perception ....

 

[max_freakout]

The term "breakthrough" connotes a qualitatively different experience, which is not consistent with, or at least not intuitively an extension of, the normal set of experiences with their sliding scale of intensity based upon dosage. In PD terms, think DMT hyperspace, dissociative holes (by the strictest definition), and anticholinergic delirium.

According to you perhaps, but everyone defines it differently, some people will say it's when you meet the elves, some people will say it is when you experience ego death, etc etc. It is a meaningless phrase with no agreed meaning that everyone defines differently, there is no such thing, objectively speaking, as a "breakthrough"

 

[Yeetbeat]

According to you perhaps, but everyone defines it differently, some people will say it's when you meet the elves, some people will say it is when you experience ego death, etc etc. It is a meaningless phrase with no agreed meaning that everyone defines differently, there is no such thing, objectively speaking, as a "breakthrough"

Thank you lol

 

[Ismene]

They have been able to, in repeatable experiments, get a high yield of people claiming to have religious experience while on psychedelics in a relaxed environment listening to profound music. Maybe you won't have one Ismene but there are gobs of evidence; you cannot simply dismiss it as a conspiracy.

Steady on pmose - I never denied people can have religious experiences when tripping. I have mystical experiences most times when I trip - I just choose to interpret them in a different way because I don't believe in organised religion.

But isn't an ego death something different to a mystical experience?

All the elements are there from the previous cases to suggest ego-death is a possible experience.

Are you saying an ego-death is the same as a blackout? I blacked out once on GHB - there wasn't anything spectacular about it. I blacked out and woke up 3 hours later unable to remember anything.

You are dismissing accounts of an experience as nothing more than a shared symbolism

I'm dismissing them - they're welcome to their own experience. It's the suggestion that we would all experience an "ego-death" if only we were as wise or tripped as hard as them that I'm questioning.

But I do seriously question this "death" idea. I've never experienced anything remotely connected to death while tripping - it simply doesn't enter my head. I feel life surging through me.

 

[Ismene]

I have experienced what I suspect is called " Ego Death " number of times when in a deep psychedelic state of ecstatic bliss , and feeling very grateful and humbled by the experience ; and a feeling of being wired into the universe - connected to the cosmic life force , and everyone , every thing , and every creature in existence in the past , present and future ....

Sounds like what I feel mudshark - I struggle to link it in any way with death tho. And a lot of people talk about ego-death as being this terrifying arsequake of an experience - sheer fear and terror of death. Never experienced anything remotely like that.

 

[max_freakout]

But isn't an ego death something different to a mystical experience?

They are the same thing, ego death is the core mystical experience, mystical death and rebirth

 

[Yeetbeat]

It's the suggestion that we would all experience an "ego-death" if only we were as wise or tripped as hard as them that I'm questioning.

How is this ANY different from breaking through on DMT????? Fuck man you're starting to really contradict your own feelings.

 

[Ismene]

What the fuck are you on about?

What do you mean by breaking through on DMT? Feeling the psychedelic effects of it?