Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

[swilow]

Issy, I think you mention Timothy Leary more then anyone here... His thoughts are not such an influence. I think of him as an interesting historical character but no real authority. Some of what he said had worth.

 

[Ismene]

Well, I wasn't in a state where I new anything at that point, and I could definitely not choose to see it differently when it was all going on. But I guess it's impossible to put into words, and therefor also difficult to explain.

But it's only when you look back on it you pick up the similarities tho. It's like going to a spiritualist meeting and someone saying "I'm getting a message from someone with white hair who has a pain in his lower body" - your brain will desperately think back on something vaguely similar and you'll be convinced he's talking to you. There's a whole spiritualist movement based around this tendency of some humans to recognise similarities/coincidences when there really arn't any.

 

[Ismene]

Issy, I think you mention Timothy Leary more then anyone here... His thoughts are not such an influence. I think of him as an interesting historical character but no real authority. Some of what he said had worth.

Tim is the key individual in all this tho - the term "ego-death" comes from his book The psychedelic experience - that starts with the phrase "That which is ego-death is coming to you". Presumably that's where all the bullshit started.

 

[luxray]

But it's only when you look back on it you pick up the similarities tho. It's like going to a spiritualist meeting and someone saying "I'm getting a message from someone with white hair who has a pain in his lower body" - your brain will desperately think back on something vaguely similar and you'll be convinced he's talking to you. There's a whole spiritualist movement based around this tendency of some humans to recognise similarities/coincidences when there really arn't any.

I don't get your point. I've written about my experience regarding the topic, I'm not looking for similarities or wanting the experience to be something it's not. In fact, I didn't know there was a name for it, before I told people about what happened, that I stopped existing, that the universe stopped existing, that I died/never had been alive, or whatever. I hadn't read anything regarding the subject before, and the first time I read something about the white light thing was here in this thread...

Even tho you think this is all bullshit, people still experience it.

 

[Yeetbeat]

I've never broken through on DMT, even up to 60mg vapourised, so therefore there is no such thing as a breakthrough.



Same logic you seem to be applying Ismene, as people's 'breakthrough' experiences vary somewhat too, just like with ego death. I don't deny there is such thing as breaking through regardless.

 

[swilow]

Tim is the key individual in all this tho - the term "ego-death" comes from his book The psychedelic experience - that starts with the phrase "That which is ego-death is coming to you". Presumably that's where all the bullshit started.

Even tho you think this is all bullshit, people still experience it.

And really that should end the whole argument.

To a blind person, sight does not exist. Yet I would argue, from my sighted perspective, that it does. And very few blind people would try to tell me I was bullshitting.

 

[Ismene]

In fact, I didn't know there was a name for it, before I told people about what happened, that I stopped existing, that the universe stopped existing, that I died/never had been alive, or whatever.

That doesn't sound really sound like an ego-death. It sounds more like a typical psychedelic experience where you feel at one with everything.

and the first time I read something about the white light thing was here in this thread...

And even tho you didn't have a clue in what context or meaning it was originally meant, you instantly linked it to what you experienced.

Even tho you think this is all bullshit, people still experience it.

I've never denied some people will experience it - people think they've talked to ghosts at spiritualist meetings every day of the week - that doesn't mean I will experience the same thing. It isn't an objective experience that we are all going to experience if only we take a high enough dose. It's something that certain people will experience.

Same logic you seem to be applying Ismene, as people's 'breakthrough' experiences vary somewhat too, just like with ego death. I don't deny there is such thing as breaking through regardless.

No, breaking through on DMT is a very obvious experience available to everyone. I've been tripping for 10 years with doses sufficent to stun a charging gorilla and the thought of death has never occured to me. On the contrary I've never felt more alive and more aware of who I am than when I'm tripping.

To a blind person, sight does not exist. Yet I would argue, from my sighted perspective, that it does. And very few blind people would try to tell me I was bullshitting.

Come off it will - an ego-death isn't as valid as being blind. It's more akin to an evangelical christian telling me that God exists because he's experienced it. I still don't believe him.

But this argument is like arguing with an evangelical christian - there's nothing you can say that will make me believe in God and there's nothing I can say that will make you question your belief. Perhaps we should just leave it at that.

 

[Yeetbeat]

No, breaking through on DMT is a very obvious experience available to everyone. I've been tripping for 10 years with doses sufficent to stun a charging gorilla and the thought of death has never occured to me. On the contrary I've never felt more alive and more aware of who I am than when I'm tripping.

You will find plenty enough people just like me who seemingly cannot achieve this breakthrough/hyperspace experience on DMT, so no, I would not say it's a 'very obvious experience available to everyone'; the only obvious difference between an 'ego death' and 'breakthrough' experience as far as this argument is concerned is that a breakthrough is much much easier to describe "accurately". Otherwise they're both psychedelic-induced phenomena of some description, and the existence of either can be argued in this stupid childish way.

 

[swilow]

How is it like evangelical Christianity? You only say that because it is blunt and suggestive, but its innacurate. There is no point in telling a person that their experience is not real because you didn't experience it too. There is no great meaning to derive from this illogic. But proceed as ever my dear....

edit: plus lets not forget that death, as a concept, is not a uniformly negative idea. Its just inevitable.

 

[max_freakout]

death, as a concept, is not a uniformly negative idea. Its just inevitable.

and final

 

[Xorkoth]

I have often tried to just use the term "ego loss" rather than ego death, and ego loss happens to varying degrees and in different ways, sometimes to the point of total ego death/ceasing to exist as an individual entity (seemingly at least). Would that be less confusing for people? I think so. This is such a tired debate about here...

 

[luxray]

That doesn't sound really sound like an ego-death. It sounds more like a typical psychedelic experience where you feel at one with everything.

And even tho you didn't have a clue in what context or meaning it was originally meant, you instantly linked it to what you experienced.

I've never experienced something like that in my other trips - not even close (and it's not a dose issue for me). It's ok you don't believe it was an ego death - but for me that's what it was. I understand it's difficult imagening something one has never experienced. It's, at least for me, impossible even describing.

Yes, the phrase made me think of what I experienced and than I wrote about it. Nothing more, nothing less. You put to much into this.

To a blind person, sight does not exist. Yet I would argue, from my sighted perspective, that it does. And very few blind people would try to tell me I was bullshitting.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I have often tried to just use the term "ego loss" rather than ego death, and ego loss happens to varying degrees and in different ways, sometimes to the point of total ego death/ceasing to exist as an individual entity (seemingly at least). Would that be less confusing for people? I think so. This is such a tired debate about here...

That's still problematic, as ego death is generally spoken of as a qualitatively unique experience, not just a more intense version of the normal psychedelic identity disturbances/ cosmic oneness. Folks wouldn't wax on endlessly as they do if that were the case.

It's, at least for me, impossible even describing

R.A. Zaehner convinced me that mystic experiences can be described and categorized with academic rigor, making me all the more skeptical of the vague and dissimilar descriptions provided of Ego Death. On the other hand, I can relate, 'cause God help me if I attempted to describe my ++++, I've never tried, and I don't think I ever shall.

I stopped existing, that the universe stopped existing, that I died/never had been alive, or whatever.

To me this sounds like a dissociative hole, which I imagine is different from the experience that you are describing. That is why this is so troublesome. The problem is not that y'all are having profound experiences, it's that it isn't necessarily the same experience, even though it is treated with a single term (and that such importance is attached to it by so many psychedelic users). I'm not as incredulous as izzy, but I feel the need to play the skeptic here.

 

[Xorkoth]

I think it boils down to the fact that (some) people feel compelled to describe their experiences, which requires words. Words can never fully describe an experience (even mundane experiences), so we run into issues. Humans like to try to categorize things and come up with terms to describe concepts. I'm not sure it's possible to really do that, yet we try, and ego death or ego loss is one of the terms we've come up, collectively. You're probably right that when I hear someone say ego death, though I believe I understand where they're coming from, I'm also coming from my own experience that I labeled as that. Still, it provides me with some understanding of where they're coming from.

I like talking about this, I just don't like being told that what I experienced was due to suggestion, or propaganda, or just plain false, or that I only thought I was experiencing something because I buy into some religious-style mumbo-jumbo, as that demeans it.

Also, I experienced ego death on a dissociative once (MXE), and though there were some core similarities, it was also quite different, especially in what happened when I got there. Rather than becoming everything simultaneously, I became the one single thing that exists. I guess that feeds into your point that the term is being used to describe experiences that aren't the same though. But then, a lot of terms we use in life describe things that are under a general blanket of experience, but don't require that each experience described be exactly the same.

 

[pmoseman]

I have often tried to just use the term "ego loss" rather than ego death, and ego loss happens to varying degrees and in different ways, sometimes to the point of total ego death/ceasing to exist as an individual entity (seemingly at least). Would that be less confusing for people? I think so. This is such a tired debate about here...

This makes more sense than ego death.

Especially because ego death is not a consistent experience though ideally it would seem to be. This description includes achieving ego death and the ego returning and leaves open the possibility of a more complete letting go.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

An aside:

Also, I experienced ego death on a dissociative once (MXE), and though there were some core similarities, it was also quite different, especially in what happened when I got there. Rather than becoming everything simultaneously, I became the one single thing that exists

Personally, I would liken the extreme, break-through dissociative experience ("hole" is used differently by different people so I shall avoid it here) to the ancient Greek idea of primordial chaos, being without form; perhaps to the World Egg, if you wanna get really out there in terms of mythic symbolism (and I'm getting out of my depth). I dunno, the psychedelic conceptions of ego/identity and oneness seem inappropriate, in spite of the similarities between the experiences provided by these two kinds of substances.

 

[Smoky]

I wonder if the Steinburg depersonalization screening test is still valid. I know mpd is a former disorder for dissociative trauma states, although this is not generally specific to drug use, but not necessarily ... when trauma was part of use itself.

Regardless, on another note:
'Who' is the witness to the ego death during these experiences mentioned above I wonder. Just as identity confusion plays a role in it-self.

If one is an observer of oneself and notices this … who is doing the noticing ?

 

[Ismene]

You will find plenty enough people just like me who seemingly cannot achieve this breakthrough/hyperspace experience on DMT, so no, I would not say it's a 'very obvious experience available to everyone'.

I did say oral DMT troz - smoked DMT is trickier because it's hard to master the smoking technique. I guarantee I can make anyone on earth breakthrough on oral DMT. I give you DMT and moclobemide and you break through - there's nothing mystical about it.

 

[Ismene]

How is it like evangelical Christianity?

Because I'm sure I've experienced the same feelings as people who say they've had an ego-death. I just chose to interpret them in a different way. So while someone else would star thinking "i'm dying, I'm dying" and that would take them down one route, I'd think "Well, one things for certain, I'm not dying, so lets contemplate exactly what's happening here" and go down a different route.

Just like how evangelical christians will say "I feel God all around me when I go into nature". I know the feeling he's talking about but I don't need God to explain it.

Y'follow?

 

[blowjay]

Half of this thread is comparing apples to oranges and the other half eloquently showcases different pronunciations possible for the word tomato.

Now there is one thing that is left for some discussion in here...

Does one have to listen to someone with a big ego discuss the beliefs and opinions of others that they disagree with or can that person simply tone down the fucking ego and quit the banter or will those who have their ego toned down a bit more be able to keep discussing the topic?

The only other thing I have to question is whether or not a person believes they are connected to others enough to say they are in essence the same as them and thus believe we are all one and many at the same time. We are all experiencing things together but we do so subjectively.

To be or not to be...

To infinity and beyond...

To be continued...