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Ego death/Depersonalization and psychedelics!!!

It baffles me how much you assume about the experience without having had the experience yourself.
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He has a point in so far as it's a terrible phrase. And it's his job here to repeat that endlessly and make everybody else think about what they're saying and what they believe this experience to be.


Allow me to play Socrates:

- Believing you are dying and going through a mental process of coming to terms with that
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This is rather pedestrian as far as drug induced thoughts/feelings go, nothing particularly special about it, in fact those of us with severe anxiety disorders can attest that it can happen while perfectly sober.

- Experiencing the ego shrinking to the point of insignificance and becoming aware of your role in a greater level of being independent from your ordinary self-ness
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Now this can be magical (and it would pay to differentiate between oneness induced by contraction vs expansion of the ego), but seems common to a number of mystic experiences. Do you suggest that 'ego death' is merely the experience of these two things simultaneously, or sequentially, as the case may be? If so, it doesn't sound like it deserves to be called a single phenomenon.
 
Thorns Have Roses said:
This is rather pedestrian as far as drug induced thoughts/feelings go, nothing particularly special about it
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There is nothing "pedestrian" or "not particularly special" about ego death, it is the most profound and intense experience that the human mind can undergo.
 
Seems people may have individual definitions of what Ego Death is, thus clouding the conversation. I think a true definition is hard to come by, since evidence is mostly anecdotal. For some people it seems to mean intense depersonalization, to others astral travelling, for other's experiencing death, experiencingoneness etc... The term 'ego death' is not really self explanatory. The term might best be avoided, in favour of more specific words to describe a psychedelic experience.

OP (just my thoughts from personal experience)

As far as depersonalization when you are not tripping. I think it's easier to enter a depersonalised state after having similar experiences under a psychedelic. You now know what the thought process is like, and 'how' to feel it.

When you are not stoned you can choose how you perceive something. If you are uncomfortable having a depersonalised state of mind, in my experience, it's a fairly trivial thing to snap out of. If you command your mind, nobody else will :)

Seeing something from a depersonalised state may be a useful tool, stoned or straight. So it might be worth remembering how you got into that state of mind in the first place. Ego is both a curse and a blessing. We couldn't obliterate our ego, if it didn't exist!

If you are having trouble losing this state of mind on your own, taking a break from psychedelics might be worth considering. If that doesn't solve the problem, seek better advice! (aka not mine)
 
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max_freakout said:
There is nothing "pedestrian" or "not particularly special" about ego death, it is the most profound and intense experience that the human mind can undergo.
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Only for those people vulnerable to it. It's like an evangelical christian telling you that a good service is the greatest thing in life - for him it might be. For me it definately won't be.
 
explodinguniverse said:
Seems people may have individual definitions of what Ego Death is, thus clouding the conversation. I think a true definition is hard to come by, since evidence is mostly anecdotal. For some people it seems to mean intense depersonalization, to others astral travelling, for other's experiencing death, experiencingoneness etc... The term 'ego death' is not really self explanatory. The term might best be avoided, in favour of more specific words to describe a psychedelic experience.
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It's kinda like self-diagnosing medical problems on the internet. People will have an experience, then go looking on the internet and find something that seems to be vaguely like what they experienced. Hey presto - you must've had an ego-death.

Back in the 60s before the ego-death phrase appeared in Learys book they used to ask each other "Did you see the white light?" - that was supposed to be the greatest thing that could ever happen to you on acid. "Did you see the white light" seems to be out of fashion nowadays.
 
Ismene said:
Only for those people vulnerable to it. It's like an evangelical christian telling you that a good service is the greatest thing in life - for him it might be. For me it definately won't be.
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You are hard headed my friend. :|
 
Ego death doesn't mean you have to feel like you are actually dying, but I would assume you have not experienced such phenomenon because you are not open to it.

Wikipedia

Ego death is characterized as the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment, a sense of the loss of control, personal agency, and cognitive-associations. This re-organization, re-identification, and re-interpretation of boundaries between self and environment is experienced through sensations of wholeness or by refutation of the "I”.
 
I could imagine for myself at least, ego death would be quite easily and effectively achieved through combining a decent dose of mushrooms with a dissociative. I've been very close to the wiki definition plenty of times on mushrooms, particularly when lying on an oval under the stars listening to Sphongle, not moving at all. Slowly I'll stop 'feeling' my body, similarly to when you're trying to go to sleep and you find that perfect comfortable position. It's not a numbing or dissociation; your consciousness is simply no longer being distracted or alerted to physical sensations of touch due to that sensory input being too quiet while the others are still stimulated through music. Eventually if I can lie there long enough without being distracted (really only a minute or two), I almost 'forget' I have a physical body. This feeling is right on the verge of some kind of 'oneness', where you're nothing more than a consciousness existing.

The problem is I still for the most part know I exist, and therefore am still "I". I lose this feeling every now and then, but it's not quite full blown loss of ego. I think the addition of ketamine or MXE would easily achieve loss of ego, though I've never experienced a dissociative myself so I can't actually say for sure whether it'd help :P
 
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Ketamine goes great with almost anything, if you look into it you will find many reports of ego death experiences with K alone. I used to K-hole in the peak of LSD or Candy Flips because it greatly prolongs the amount of time I could be in that blissful state.. The first few times can be scary. As you get used to the utter shattering of your ego, you can transition more smoothly to and from this realm. I have also reached this state without drugs but now lack the concentration because it is very difficult and takes a lot of practice.

MXE which I also do love is IME more hit or miss with a full on ego death, and seems to be more of a depersonalization. This is not to say that I haven't had ego death on MXE many of times.. It's just with K I know my dose that takes me there every time, and MXE is for me more like a coin toss.
 
Ismene said:
It's kinda like self-diagnosing medical problems on the internet. People will have an experience, then go looking on the internet and find something that seems to be vaguely like what they experienced. Hey presto - you must've had an ego-death.

Back in the 60s before the ego-death phrase appeared in Learys book they used to ask each other "Did you see the white light?" - that was supposed to be the greatest thing that could ever happen to you on acid. "Did you see the white light" seems to be out of fashion nowadays.
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That's wierd. Cause that's exactly what happened to me the first time I took acid. The white light thing.

I went out of my body, couldn't feel it at all. Started seeing sunset after sunset. I couldn't hear a thing, even at a psytrance rave... Didn't know if I was dead or not, or if I ever had been alive. I didn't exist, nothing existed. Felt like an eternity. All I could see was white light everywhere. And it turned in to a completely white canvas. Eventually I let go, and when I came back into my body I had this indescribable energy and happiness. And I didn't at all understand what had happened. It took an other acid trip to work through it actually...
 
Ego death is characterized as the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment, a sense of the loss of control, personal agency, and cognitive-associations. This re-organization, re-identification, and re-interpretation of boundaries between self and environment is experienced through sensations of wholeness or by refutation of the "I”.
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Most of this sounds like a fairly typical psychedelic experience, IME, with the exception of the sense of loss of control/agency, which happens but rarely to me during trips, though I've had that while sober too. Actually, as a whole it sounds like depersonalization, except with the exuberance and meaningfulness of psychedelia thrown into what is an unpleasant experience for the sober.

I would also like to point out that this definition is at odds with those of other persons in this thread who asserted that the death/rebirth experience is an intrinsic part of it. Also, I can't help but think NMDA antagonists fit the wiki definition quite well, and personally, I would be uneasy with what many folks consider to be the (pen)ultimate psychedelic experience being semantically identical with the often dark pull of dissociative escapism.

Given the variance in its characterization (the "hole" has the same problem), I must put myself in the camp against the use of a term that has no clear meaning. It facilitates miscommunication, not that I'd complain about its use in casual conversation.
 
You echo my exact feelings on the stupid term "comedown", in its most common use regarding post-MDMA shittiness haha
 
Ismene said:
Back in the 60s before the ego-death phrase appeared in Learys book they used to ask each other "Did you see the white light?" - that was supposed to be the greatest thing that could ever happen to you on acid. "Did you see the white light" seems to be out of fashion nowadays.
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I've never read any of Leary's books, and this is the first time I've come across this question in this context, but I know EXACTLY what he's referring to.
I've seen the white light many times (most recently, just a couple hours ago during the peak of an MXE trip).
The clear white light springing forth from everywhere bringing infinite bliss.
<3
 
OnMyWayHome said:
Ego death is characterized as the perceived loss of boundaries between self and environment, a sense of the loss of control, personal agency, and cognitive-associations. This re-organization, re-identification, and re-interpretation of boundaries between self and environment is experienced through sensations of wholeness or by refutation of the "I”.
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It's vauge enough to sound like any typical psychedelic experience tho isn't it. In the same way people will recognise just about any illness imaginable in their own symptoms if they read about it on the internet.

zn13bt said:
I've never read any of Leary's books, and this is the first time I've come across this question in this context, but I know EXACTLY what he's referring to.
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How can you know it's the same thing Leary meant if you've never read any of his books or know what he was referring to? See - that's the problem. Someone mentions a "white light" and you conclude it instantly has to be the same thing with the exact same meaning Leary was talking about. It's like someone with malaria saying "I had a cough" and you saying "Well I had a cough too - I must've had malaria".

Incidentally the person who talked about it lived with Leary and he said none of them ever saw the "white light" but they were so scared of looking uncool that they said they had.
 
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luxray said:
That's wierd. Cause that's exactly what happened to me the first time I took acid. The white light thing.
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Not that wierd really. People will read all kinds of things into experiences depending on the person they are. Some people go to palmreaders and conclude "You know, that's exactly what happened to me" and other people don't. It's pretty standard.

I've seen lights on psychedelics but I don't choose to see them as meaning I'm dead because I know psychedelics have absolutely no chance of killing me.
 
there is a persistent misunderstanding about ego death here, but the meaning of "ego death" isnt at all complicated or ambiguous, the meaning of is contained within the term itself - "ego death = thinking that I am dead", there is no room for misinterpretation this is a simple term for a specific kind of experience, the ego death phenomenon is common among psychedelic trippers, there are hundreds of examples of ego death trip reports on the internet where trippers report the feeling of being dead/nonexistent.

That is all there is to it, the definition of "ego death" is straightforwardly self-explanatory, there is no point struggling to come up with strained and artificial definitions for "ego death" such as this vague "white light".
 
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Whatever you just said makes no sense to me maybe this will help you.

A quote from another place on the web

"Ego death is the absence of who you have built yourself to be. It is the splitting of the mind when it first begins to happen, and the ability to truly LOOK at who you normally are, without rationalizing your flaws which you might normally do. It can be one of the most beautiful experiences in your life, but even more, if understood and dealt with properly, it can be more then just a single experience, but a way of life. But furthermore, it will draw out extreme hurt and pain because you will have uncovered a mask that the "real you" normally wears, and is so comfortable in wearing. It strips away your security of who you are, and it will be very clear to you that there are some serious issues with who you are that need to be dealt with. It is the feeling that you are speaking with your own mind, or watching the person you usually are on a movie screen, and a person with the opinion of only wanting the best in this world sits watching. But.. Let me make this very clear: There are very REAL positive and negative effects of ego death. These effects are the reason I am writing this report."
 
Ismene said:
Not that wierd really. People will read all kinds of things into experiences depending on the person they are. Some people go to palmreaders and conclude "You know, that's exactly what happened to me" and other people don't. It's pretty standard.

I've seen lights on psychedelics but I don't choose to see them as meaning I'm dead because I know psychedelics have absolutely no chance of killing me.
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Well, I wasn't in a state where I new anything at that point, and I could definitely not choose to see it differently when it was all going on. But I guess it's impossible to put into words, and therefor also difficult to explain.

In retrospect, I know I didn't die or anything like that. And it doesn't matter to me what it's called really - the experience is the same no matter what.
 
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