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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

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This is quite a significant piece of information regarding the whole "old skool MDMA" debate!
Fair play for digging it out
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How is it significant if you don't mind me asking? MDMA sold on the street is always racemic, always has been.

'pure' MDMA made from safrole would be the same as 'pure' MDMA made from PMK. Some of the stuff these days is rushed a bit towards the final steps and not all that clean, hence why you have some minging brown looking stuff. Best MDMA I've had was a white/transparent batch. You could certainly notice that 120mg of that was a better feeling than 150mg of some other stuff that was about at the time.
 
rockstar 69 said:
How is it significant if you don't mind me asking?
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Its significant because it shows MDMA, in relation to the 'magic', behaving differently to how science thinks it should. Saying "obviously the isomers will behave differently" doesn't even start to address what is going on. According to Shulgin the 'magic' should have been present in either R or S. It wasn't. That makes mdma bigger than the sum of its parts. Magicing 'magic' out of seemingly nowhere. Or at least from a place science does not yet understand.

If Shulgin doesn't fully understand what's going on, I'm not sure how anyone can be so certain of the science of mdma to say mdma is mdma is mdma. Or be confident where that 'magic' comes from/gets lost.
 
Yeah I read it, neither isomer had the magic, but racemic MDMA does. What I'm still missing is how it is significant in the 'old skool MDMA debate'?
 
I agree some pills have the magic and some don't, even though they are mdma. I don't have a fucking clue why. I'll leave that to the scientists, shulgin and rockstar.
 
rockstar 69 said:
How is it significant if you don't mind me asking? MDMA sold on the street is always racemic, always has been.
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I only have a very basic understanding of chemistry so I could be way off here but; if ketamine can be synthesised at a 2:1 ratio S:R, can the same not be done with MDMA causing it's effect to be different than racemic (1:1).
Not that anyone would want to create such a compound but if it was possible for it to happen accidentally during synthesis it would explain variation in effects of different batches. If it is not possible accidentally then please ignore.

On a sidenote, in contrast to yourself, some of the best MDMA i've had was "minging brown looking stuff", with some of the weakest being white/transparent crystal. I remember reading a report from an x-ray crystallographer with regards LSD crystal purity. I'm sure the same applies to MDMA crystal & any crystal for that matter.

He states:
Furthermore, I will say this. The idea that someone can tell crystal purity by visual inspection alone is complete and utter bullshit. I have seen substances that usually crystallize into beautiful pure white crystals precipitate as purple coloured garbage under the exact same conditions (as far as I can control for, at least). Of course, my first thought upon seeing something like that, is "Oh, my sample sucks. I may as well get rid of it." Further analyses can be very surprising. In this case, it was less than 2% impurity disrupting the crystallization process and adding the purple colour.
I have also seen beautiful crystal that give such garbage diffraction patterns that the purity must have been far below 50%, even though the crystal looked just like the pure ones that gave good diffraction data.
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Now I understand thanks man. I thought all MDMA was racemic 50:50 but I guess there are bound to be different mixes. I have had good brown MDMA too but colour is still a sign of impurities.
 
rockstar 69 said:
Now I understand thanks man. I thought all MDMA was racemic 50:50 but I guess there are bound to be different mixes.
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I don't know.

I just know it shows science doesn't have a definitive answer for where the magic comes from and that what MM said up there is it in a nutshell.

I agree some pills have the magic and some don't, even though they are mdma. I don't have a fucking clue why.
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Yeah. I totally agree with that last quote aswell. You can say it's from set, setting, your mood etc to a certain extent but I've had pills and crystal that even in the best atmosphere with the right people etc didn't hit the spot.

It is funny though people were saying all the old skool 90's pills were safrole based that's why they were better. If the dutch govt banned PMK in 1996 it's obvious that it was being used to synth MDMA back in the 90's aswell.
 
parttime crackhead said:
I don't know anything about chemistry but what I understand from that is that PMK is a synthetic, therefore inorganic, copy of an extract from the sassafras tree. Although I have no idea how you would create that, what you would create it from or if what I've just typed is even in the slightest bit correct.
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Organic simply means 'containing carbon' and inorganic means without carbon. Nothing to do with being natural or synthetic. The Hive has the best laymans synthesis of MDMA guides, as linked previously by Watsons Torment.
 
^Thank fuck someone posted it. Come on numpties, "organic" in this sense just refers to carbon compounds. Marmz, "compound" just refers to a chemical in which there are bonds between different types of atoms. rockstar, MDP2P (PMK) can be made from safrole/isosafrole or by other routes, its presence in a sample cannot tell you whether sassafras oil was the raw material for synthesis. As a rule, racemic reactants give racemic products, anyone wanting to make a heterochiral mix of MDMA would probably have to also use heterochiral reactants, which seems pointless given that the racemate is desired.
 
rockstar 69 said:
What I'm saying is if you synth racemic MDMA from the straight safrole route it is the same as racemic MDMA from the PMK route, provided they are cleaned properly. Obviously the two isomers will be different, look at the difference with ketamine.
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I suggest you take a look at *snip* and then get back to us if you still think what you've written is correct :)
 
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I was the one who linked that in the first place. Point out/quote the bit that says 'pure' safrole MDMA is any better than 'pure' PMK MDMA?

And to reiterate, PMK has been used to synth MDMA since the 90's. So all the talk of 'old skool MDMA was better', well it wasn't cos your MDMA was made with safrole.
 
Guys, interesting as these links are, they contain detailed synthesis information. Das is verboten, I'm afraid. rockstar, as I've already said, MDP2P is an intermediate in the synthesis of MDMA from safrole, "PMK MDMA" and "safrole MDMA" are not mutually exclusive sets.
 
Yeah I know that now mate read my posts. I said at the start I thought PMK was purely inorganic. But I do not believe there would be any difference in the end product if you cleaned it properly to the same purity and it was the same ratio of isomers, no matter what method you use to get there.
 
Vader said:
Guys, interesting as these links are, they contain detailed synthesis information. Das is verboten, I'm afraid. rockstar, as I've already said, MDP2P is an intermediate in the synthesis of MDMA from safrole, "PMK MDMA" and "safrole MDMA" are not mutually exclusive sets.
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Ah. Apologies. I thought I was linking to a peer reviewed scientific paper. Silly me 8)
 
rockstar 69 said:
Yeah I know that now mate read my posts. I said at the start I thought PMK was purely inorganic. But I do not believe there would be any difference in the end product if you cleaned it properly to the same purity and it was the same ratio of isomers, no matter what method you use to get there.
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As a general rule the synthetic pathway (synthetic as in the process by which something is made) could have significant impact on the ratio of isomers produced in the final product! Washing it is irrelevant twaddle.
 
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