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Ecstasy/MDMA withdrawal

M

mrmichael

Greenlighter
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
8
Ecstasy/MDMA withdrawal

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Hey Everyone,

I posted this in another area and someone suggested it would be good to re-post it here.

I've just joined Bluelight and wanted to ask for your experiences.

I'm a reporter from an Australian radio station called Triple J for young people aged between 15 and 34. My show is a news/issues show called Hack.

I just want to get a sense if what i've been hearing is common.

The discussion would be anonymous, just for the list and off-the-record.

I've heard from a few people that long term/heavy ecstasy users when they try and quit can struggle from psychological and physical symptoms. Obviously it doesn't share the same addictive properties as other drugs but I just wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this or knows someone who has.

If you did - what did you experience? for how long? how did you get through it? were there health services available to assist you?

Please post on this thread or email me at [email protected]

If you want to check out my show the weblink below allows you to listen to past episodes.

Cheers,
Michael
www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack
 
Due to the nature of the drug I believe the more frequently and heavily it's used the less effective it becomes. Your brain can only produce so much serotonin. I certainly found I enjoyed it less when used more often and in larger doses. As such it may be the case that rather than withdrawl symptoms, one might feel a lot better when quiting as their serotonin/dopamine etc levels balance out again to a healthy level?

I'd say you'd probably have a worse time quiting serotonergic/SSRI/SSNRI-type anti depressants and a much harder time quiting other stimulants such as amphetamines. I went through a period of heavy depression after giving up speed but there were a lot of other non-drug-related factors.

This is all anecdotal though; maybe one of the more scientifically minded bluelight members could shed more light on the topic?
 
There is no real withdrawal from these chems. Because simply put - you cant continue use on them for an extended period - so it doesn't share any of the characteristics of addictive type drugs.

Any sign of withdrawal from say, weekly or fortnightly use is completely psychological. The habit of "party use" hardly meets the form of say heroin, benzo or GHB dependence. The only withdrawal you tend to feel (from personal experience) is the withdrawal from your friendship group - for example; you don't have enough money for a pill that weekend, yet everyone else does - but not enough to shout you. Then you're left trying to get credit off the dealer or whatever - thus leading to the train of thought that would lead you to believe you're addicted. It's more a matter of fitting in.

I'm also talking from my experiences in my mid teens.

food for thought.
 
In my experience, if there is MDMA available and I'm out on the town, or at a recovery party, I will more then likely have some.

Having said that though, if there isnt any available, I don't feel bad or anything, I just drink instead. I do find it difficult to socialise all night without some sort of social lubricant.

I've never tried to give MDMA up, as I don't think my use is high enough to warrant it. I've got no idea how I would fare if I tried.
 
Iv used E most weekends since my 18th birthday. Im now 21 and still use it quite often. The first few months there is some fiending for it. Not so much you need it when your out but you know your night on the town could be so much better if you eat that little coloured pill in your pocket. But as you become used to the effects, "looseing the magic" I spose its quite easy stop. I abstained for 2 months at one point. Had easy access the whole time, all my mates were doing it but I didn't really feel like it. Then I had 20th Birthday party.

In my opinion only the people with extreamly addictive personalities would have a problem comeing off E.
 
belarki said:
As such it may be the case that rather than withdrawl symptoms, one might feel a lot better when quiting as their serotonin/dopamine etc levels balance out again to a healthy level?
Click to expand...

Not so much in the short term, you are certainly correct in a long term view though.

It does take quite a long while for serotonin levels to return to normal in a heavy user. I think one of the early German studies cited in 'ecstacy rising' postulated that serotonin levels can take months so return to normal levels even in moderate users. In light of this, a fairly heavy user is going to have some fairly severe psychological addiction issues. The only way for them to return to 'normal' quickly is to take more MDMA. I think physical symptoms would probably be more associated with their body recovering from the MDMA associated lifestyle. After all, if you stop using MDMA after heavy usage, chances are you would stop a lot of other drug use as well.

For a more scientific view I would suggest:

http://www.maps.org/mdma/protocol/litreview.html

section 6, page 182 is the brief bit on addiction.
 
A good topic to talk about on the show is the presence of other chemicals in street ecstasy tablets. Methamphetamines (AKA speed or ice, ice being the purer form), and sometimes normal Amphetamine if the pill has been imported are very common cuts in ecstasy tablets. We all know people can become dependant on speed and ice, and the use of ecstasy tablets could lead to later abuse of speed in life. Be it that they liked the "speedy" and energetic feeling of the pill, or the scene they consume the drug, the two most popular drugs are ecstasy and speed/ice.

Enlighten (Enlighten.org.au) has raised issues of Pill Testing to the Australian Government for some time. Yet the government doesn't want to have anything to do with it. They see drugs as being illegal, staying illegal, and people should not take them, so in their view if someone decides to take these drugs that the government gives very little accurate information of, they want to be consuming ecstasy but could be consuming something else like speed, or speed and MDMA which leads to neurotoxicty, especially if the dose of MDMA (pure ecstasy) in the tablets is low, and a high dose of methamphetamine, people will keep taking more tablets until they reach the ecstasy "peak".

There is also the problem of more dangerous cuts in ecstasy pills, including PMA which recently killed a Canberra man, and Annabel Catt in February and a wide range of new psychedelic substances normally reffered to as "research chemicals" which are quite the opposite, little to no research has been done on these chemicals, besides a few "psychonauts" or mind explorers who have taken the plunge and taken a dose measured accurately on miligram scales, who actually have access to these grey-market drugs. Every now and then they show up in a pill around the world, and the Ecstasy-tolerant users end up dumping two ro three thinking its good old MDMA, and getting a nasty surprise, sometimes lasting upto 24 hours, or resulting in hospitalisations.


To re-cap. Methamphetamine is very popular in street ecstasy. And Meth in any form is addictive. Legal pill testing would help show people what is in their pills, and those pills tested at raves, clubs, events or sent in anonymously if such a system was allowed, would be listed on the Internet to show people what pill contains what, along with proper means to identify it (logo, colours, sizes, beveled edges, score on tablet, smell, shape)

Ecstasy cannot be habit forming in the way speed, heroin, GHB, cocaine, alcohol or cigarettes because when you get the full peak off MDMA, you will not feel the drug until at least a week or two later, and the full effect won't come back until over a month with a healthy diet and lifestyle.

I find it very hard to believe people are addicted to ecstasy in a physical way that show withdrawal signs besides basic party habits/routines or boredom, especially when there is no effect at all, if you take the drug on a daily or even near-daily basis.
 
If you wish to talk to Enlighten contact Johnboy here on Bluelight or from his website Enlighten.
 
I have pretty well ceased my MDMA intake these days. I found when I was readjusting to the abscence of MDMA on a weekly or 2 weekly basis, the most noticeable affect was on sleep patterns. One of the functions of seratonin is sleep regulation. I found my sleep was interrupted and didn't seem to feel as deep. I found that on the whole it returns to normal after a few weeks.

I would have to say that there is a definite lack of serious withdrawal symptoms coming off MDMA even after prolongued use. I am sure some people suffer from anxiety and mood swings until the chemical levels in their brain return to normal, and involved in that can be the depression and emotionality, but on the whole in my experience they are less severe, and more easily able to be dealt with if you have a level head and are aware of the process.
 
I was the one who suggested you post here, I hope you get the feedback you're after. As I mentioned, lots of Hack fans here. :)
 
I cant find this show on the Hack archives? A friend said they were talking about ecstasy on Fri morning and all she said was she heard about pill testing and heard a few people that werent very educated call in.

I downloaded fridays show but that was about vegetarians and hearing cows being chopped to bits *drools mmm moo blood*.

Is it downloadable?
 
Rather than the drug, it was the lifestyle that took me a long time to recover from. After a couple of years of burning the mid night oil on weekends, it takes its toll on your body.

Getting a good nights sleep is very important but is not an option when you are in party mode, I blame this for 99% of the problems I experienced when I stopped using.
 
Just wanted to say that I have alot of respect for Hack. Always seemed to be very informative and unbiased. It's just on a bit too early for me to listen to due to work.

I have a friend who claims that she couldnt go a few months without at least 1 pill, which I found a tad strange.
She claimed it was because it was the only time she felt happy... my response was pointing out that she'd binged every weekend for 9 months so what did she expect?
We attempted to get her on an SSRI for depression which she answered that she couldnt remember to take them, even if she set an alarm telling her to.

I think my point is that its a matter of the person wanting to stop the only time they feel happy.
 
The guys a journalist who wanted to get comments off some knowledge and experienced people. Now is that something the media does often ? I think Hack's been great and balanced in the past.
 
downunder83 said:
To the op ecstasy is not addictive!!!! grow up!
Click to expand...

lol... I don't think he's saying it is dude. Read it again? :D
 
As others have said, MDMA is not addictive in the same way that other drugs such as Methamphetamine or Heroin would be. It is not a substance that can be used every single day, simply because after a certain amount of doses the strength of its effects rapidly diminish, and it takes some time before the user will be able to feel the full strength effects again. How long exactly is debatable - a German study (as another poster mentioned) suggested that Serotonin levels in the brain were close to normal after a months break (I believe they said levels were at 95% but don't quote me on that).

That said, generally speaking only the more health conscious users would wait a month between using, and it is fairly common for people to use it each weekend. The effects won't be as strong as if they had waited, which is probably what leads many to consume more pills than is nessecary for someone who rarely consumes it.

Personally speaking, my experiences with MDMA have been fairly infrequent. In 2003 I tried my first pill (actually it was the second since the first was a dud). It was one of the most profound experiences of my life - the euphoria was like nothing I have ever experienced and I felt an incredibly strong connection between myself and those around me.

After that I entered what many refer to as "the honey moon" period of their pill consumption. This generally means a time when one is so in love with the substance that they will consume it whenever possible. For me this meant every week (or every second week depending on money). After a few months and around 50 pills later, I came to realize that I simply wasn't getting the same effects as my first pill - because of a tolerance to the substance, and adultrants (meth, ketamine etc) being present in some of the pills. Some also believe that after using MDMA a certain amount of times, one loses the "magic" of the substance when they become accustomed to the feeling of MDMA. How long this takes seems to vary from user to user, with some having reported using thousands of pills and still feeling the effects they want, while others claim to have "lost the magic" after just handful of doses. Unfortunately for me, I felt that I had "lost the magic", and at that time I decided that it would be best to cease using the substance regularly.

After I stopped using it, there was no apparent withdrawal symptoms. I have used (then quit) amphetamine as well as opiates (codeine, oxycodone etc) daily, for around a couple years. These were all of pharmaceutical origin, and the withdrawal effects (and side effects in general) were far worse than anything I've ever experienced with MDMA. Since I didn't feel as though I needed any help in quitting, I never sought after any health services to assist in the process. That said, around the middle of my "honey moon" period I discovered these forums and pillreports, as well as having seen the group "Enlighten" pill testing at few raves in South Australia. These resources gave me some excellent practical information about the drug I was using, such as how to minimize the harm caused by the substance and gave me awareness of the risks associated with its use. I don't doubt that my experiences with MDMA would have been far more damaging had I not had access to this information, and I think its a great shame that pill testing no longer exists at raves- it would have undoubtedly saved lives.

I guess the biggest problem in terms of a withdrawal from MDMA is from a psychological point of view. It can provoke such a strong and profound experience that won't be forgotten for the rest of your life (in my opinion). As such, people are probably more likely to actively seek and consume it. Though I haven't had the substance in around 2 years, I've had dreams on a few occasions in which I've dropped a couple pills at once (more than I'd take in reality since i'm quite sensitive to the substance!) and I just felt really nice. On the last few occasions that I actually did take known MDMA pills, it had far more unpleasant side effects than the first dose - high nausea for example. Whether this is because of the toll taken on my body from the substance, or an increase in impurities from poor MDMA synthesis, is anyones guess.

Overall I can't say that I'd consider MDMA to share any addictive properties with the other hard drugs that we associate with daily dependence. It's more of a case of people simply doing what they enjoy most - and for some that means having MDMA. For how long and how regularly is different for every user, though I think most will agree that excessive use leads to a decrease in the positive effects and an increase in the negative. This in itself will probably result in most users reaching a certain stage where they decide "enough is enough", compared to some other drugs which people may try to use daily for the rest of their lives.

On a side note, I'd like to say that I've got a lot of respect for the Hack program, and the unbiased and rational approach they take towards issues. The sensationalist (and somewhat conservative) views presented in some parts of the media sickens me, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one on these boards that thinks so. Your program is a breath of fresh air, and I greatly appreciate it!
 
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I really don't know what to say concerning this subject except for the fact that I believe there is definately a mental withdrawl. Nothing like heroin that involves your body, but there is something there. (well at least there was for me)
 
I absolutely don't believe in any physical withdrawal. As with any drug, people who are using drugs to "self-medicate" or to feel good for a few hours will experience psychological withdrawal - their "happy crutch" has been removed. It doesn't matter which drug. I witnessed this with many friends, who were "addicted" to e, acid, ketamine, valium etc. You cannot blame the drug for psychological addiction.

Personally, I've always stuck to the once a month or less, never more than 2.5 pills rule (except for a 3 month period where i definitely abused - and I abused purely because I wanted to escape my situation and feel okay for a few hours. And by abuse, i mean 1 or 2 pills once or twice a week.) After 3 months, my short term memory was shot to hell and I didn't feel quite right - depressed, definitely not as quick thinking, generally a brain-fried feeling. I had no desire for more ecstasy, I had a strong desire to feel healthier, eat loads of vitamins and veggies. I experienced zero physical withdrawal symptoms.

Like any drug, if used as an escape mechanism, you will experience psychological withdrawal. But that's entirely based on you, not on the drug. It saddens me that more and more users never utilize the potential of this drug, but just use it as a party drug. Reports I read of people doing 10+ pills in one night just blows my brain - utter stupidity and waste.

Don't blame the drug for human desires and shortcomings
 
I don't think the risk of seizures, extreme high blood pressure, increased heart rate or hallucinations one may get from a valium withdrawal is purely psychological. People have died from long-term valium withdrawals man.
 
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