Stimulants EC (ephedrine/caffeine) + dietary changes + anti-psychotic mood stabilizers

[alt 14]

I am currently on 600mg xr seroquel, 60mg geodon (bumps to 120mg next week, and the seroquel drops off to 0), and 100mg lamictal daily. I am 225lbs, 5'10/11ish, and probably a good 40-50 pounds over weight. I want to know if EC poses any risk to my health, and also if it will even work as intended. And that is to say I mean to use it for thermogenic/appetite suppresant effects.

I used 25mg yesterday and 50mg today, in 2 25mg doses, with 200mg caffeine each dose to boot. I will eventually (probably in a week or so) bump that to 3 25/200mg doses. I have noticed the appetite suppressant effects to some extent, but if it turns out to be placebo, I hope to be able to tell myself "hey, it was placebo, you're mentally strong enough to change your diet all by yourself." So... is it? I know these drugs I take for mental health conditions block dopamine receptor sites, but I'm not quite sure I understand it fully.

As far as my diet goes, I plan on eating about 800-900 calories daily, which I have been able to do no sweat these past two days. More specifically, about 5 200 calorie "meals" a day, a few hours apart. This is a step down from probably 2500-2750calories a day in the form of 2 very large meals. Just to give all the facts.


So to reiterate my questions - 1) will ephedrine/caffeine work to a) suppress my appetite and b) increase metabolism marginally despite my psych meds? and 2) is it safe to mix these drugs with the psych medicines?

Thanks. I was going to put this in steroids but I'm no longer an athlete nor one who intends to use steroids so I put it here.. Hope it fits :/

 

[Bob Loblaw]

IDK about ephedrine, but fat-burning/thermogenic supplements aren't advisable unless you already have a low bodyfat percentage (you can see part of your upper abs).

 

[littlepenguin]

I do hope your doctor is monitoring you very closely while you are on the seroquel taper and adding in the geodon - putting these two drugs together is a major contraindication. these two drugs can cause prolongation of the QT interval, which is a part of your heartbeat when measured by ECG. The QT interval is effected much by electrolytes and medications (such as the combination of seroquel and geodon.) Prolongation of the QT interval causes Torsades, which is a ventricular tachycardia, basically meaning your heart beats too fast. It is a potentially life threatening arrhythmia, and is the main reason that many Rx drugs are removed from the market or highly restricted.

I would strongly suggest to you that you patiently wait until you are off the seroquel for at least a couple days to re-introduce the caffeine and ephedrine. Now, there are no direct or specific contraindications with the combination of the drugs themselves (caffeine + ephedrine + geodon [or seroquel]) but I truly think one may be asking for trouble when you are putting two drugs together that really should not be taken together at any time (geodon + seroquel) and then adding the stress to the body of near starvation diet (800 cal/day) which is likely to cause an imbalance in your electrolytes, and I have no idea if you are currently working out or embarking upon a physical fitness regime, but putting all those factors together...to say the least, would make me really nervous. so - overall, I truly suggest what I said in the first sentence: wait a few days after the seroquel is done to add the extra supplements and to re-start your workout program. You should also, of course, ask your doctor, and absolutely TELL your doctor that you are planning on taking the caffeine/ephedrine. You can't expect your doctor to accurately medicate you if he or she isn't made aware of the other drugs you're taking.

If you're worried about what your doctor will say, you shouldn't be. Perhaps this will spark a conversation as to why you have the desire to take the caffeine and ephedrine, and why you would put such a massive calorie deficit in your life. (by the way: I am assuming you are a male based on the height and weight you listed - either way, even though you have been able to sustain the 8-900 cal diet for 2 or 3 days "no sweat," there is no way you'll be able to keep this up for a long time. Your body will move into starvation mode, and start storing everything it receives into your fat cells for storage, as opposed to efficiently burning it at a quick rate, which it is supposed to, when one is taking in the correct amount of calories. the caffeine and ephedrine can not 'correct' this.)
back to your doc asking why you have the desire to take the EC - I don't know about you, but speaking from personal experience, when I was put on the combination of geodon + lamictal, it made me feel perpetually drunk all day, especially in the morning when I took the drugs, after awhile I just went and lay down, because I kept passing out at the kitchen table while trying to do the morning crossword. Waking up to a face-full of oatmeal isn't really entertaining after awhile...
Doctors know that this happens, but they are also supposed to measure the 'risk/reward' when mixing two drugs that are known to cause adverse effects. It was deemed for me that the reward was better than the risk (me being insanely manic versus falling asleep in my oatmeal). Everybody voted for me + oatmeal. I voted the other way, but unfortunately for me, everybody was pretty 'over' dealing with the manic-me. I digress, you get my point...

anyhoo - don't forget to tell your doctor about the EC, maybe he/she will be able to adjust/change your meds to something that doesn't make you so tired. It's damn near impossible to find anti-psych/behaviour modification/regulation drugs that don't have the potential for weight gain, but there are some that are less likely than others.
good luck! if you have any more ?'s, feel free to ask!

 

[alt 14]

Hey, thanks for the informative answer. The information I provided at the beginning is somewhat incorrect, simply because I misread/misunderstood the instructions on the printout I was provided. I will be on 60mg geodon for 1 week, then bumped to 120mg while still on 600mg seroquel. Then I call the doctor after 1 week of that and the seroquel taper begins. It's not abrupt like I thought.

And yes, weight gain has been a HUGE problem for me with these medications. Also, I am male. I went into the psych's care about a year ago and weighed 150lbs. I have now put on about 75 pounds after being on these medications. It's fucking ridiculous. We've tried just about everything under the sun(respridal, abilify, depakote, invega, tegretol, and the list goes on), and finally landed on seroquel, the ONLY medication I have taken that completely removed the voices in my head -- and now he wants me off of it and onto geodon. ???? ok... I just go along with what he says and try to stay positive about it all.

I may respond to more of what you said later but I'm kind of annoyed this very second after going on that rant. Thanks.


P.S.1 - I'm not so much worried about the diet. I've survived an extremely active lifestyle on less than that when I wrestled in high school. FWIW I don't count calories of foods that exhibit the "negative-calorie effect," like vegetables (carrots, celery..). I fill up on fiber and my body keeps pushing mass through. Like I can eat a whole bag of carrots and not care about the calories as more energy is used in digestion than it even contains. Also the constant snacking on those foods and the small meals every two hours should, afaik?, keep my metabolism pumping and not dip into starvation mode.

 

[Lopez]

there's no magic pill, my friend. it's simply exercise. i understand, i was on risperdal for my anxiety (idk why...) and i gained like 20 pounds in a month.

it's simple, start working out. ECA will only boost your metabolism by 3%, so it's not really much of a deal. i'm on clenbuterol which gives no mental side effects for me and it boosts metabolism by 10% but that's still not enough.

another thing is, the more muscle you have, the faster you'll burn fat, muscle burns fat. no muscle = no thermogenesis.

weights + cardio = ideal fat loss and muscle gain, overall fitness.

start off with that, then maybe consider CHANGING meds due to weight gain if you still can't lose it, that's what many doctors do. i heard abilify has a milder weight gaining effect than say, seroquel.

once you have it all sorted out, consider eca, but i'm just saying, you'll be disappointed with it.

 

[Lopez]

by the way, starvation diets never work... you'll eat up your muscle then fat will only become harder to burn.

 

[alt 14]

Alright, I'll stop the ec until I meet with or at least talk to my doctor. From what I understand ec is about a 4-6% increase vs clen which is, you say, 10? And of course ec has the perk of being legal, and safe, which is why I was going to use it. I read expected fat loss gains to be about .5 pounds a week, which would be like 10-15 pounds extra over the course of the 6months I am aiming to lose the weight in. Not to mention since I've used it I feel more alert and less hungry, which can't really be quantified.

No, I know starvation diets don't work for fat loss. But am I on a starvation diet at a caloric intake of 900cals from "normal" food sources with probably another 200 coming from lettuce, carrots, celery, and other "neg-cal" foods? My activity level is minimal and if I eat much more than that I can't see me losing much if any weight. IIRC, a sedentary lifestyle will burn 14-1500 cals from normal metabolic functions? So -400cals a day = 1lb a week? I didn't think it was that drastic of a diet tbh :S I want to run and whatnot but I'm severely out of shape AND I'm still struggling to kick a nasty smoking habit. And I have ZERO motivation on these psych meds, which doesn't help too much.

Not trying to starve myself, not trying to have a heart attack, all I want is to lose a couple 10s of lbs at a rate of at least 5 a month. Thanks for the continued advice.

 

[littlepenguin]

okay - let's get the diet basics out of the way first.
you're not in high school anymore, and neither is your body. there's lots of crazy shit I did in high school (like eat one piece of bread per day and walk ten miles each way to and from school. that's just plain stupid) that I can't do now. Hell, I can't stand up without grunting like an old bear. we age, and it blows. but don't say "well in high school I ate less cals than this and was wrestling and was just fine..." try and do that now, and you're gonna get nowhere really fast.
don't use clen.
don't use the caffeine/ephedra (for now, at least.)
as the person a few above me said "there's no magic pill."
It truly is calories in vs calories out. "abs are cooked in the kitchen, not the gym." Granted you have a specific issue because you are taking prescribed drugs that have a likelihood to interrupt this math equation. We will get to that...

So you said you are 225lbs and you are 5'11". I am taking a wild stab at guessing you're about 25 years old. You said you live a fairly sedentary lifestyle and don't currently work out. That is okay (for now) and understandable considering the Rx drugs.

-To maintain the weight of 225lbs, you would consume 2,641 kcal/day.
-To lose 1 lb/week, you should consume 2,141 kcal/day.
-To lose 2 lb/week, you should consume 1,641 kcal/day.

That is purely the simple mathematics of the calories in/calories out, for your specific height and weight and activity level.

So, at this point, when you are not working out, I wouldn't suggest that you dip much under 1,500 calories per day, roughly.

It's likely that your metabolism is pretty out of whack, for lack of better term. Look at your metabolism as you would look at these Rx drugs in your body. When you start taking one of these drugs, you don't feel the effects right away. It takes a few weeks generally for your body to evenly distribute them to work correctly and get to the necessary levels for optimal performance. Your metabolism is the same way, although it usually takes a little longer than a few weeks to correct it.

When your metabolism is slow and 'confused,' it is not burning things efficiently. Kind of like a big bonfire - when the fire is huge and rolling, you throw a few twigs and branches in every so often and it keeps flaming and producing lots of heat and doesn't take a huge amount of maintenance. But when the wind is blowing and the fire wasn't started with a good base and you are constantly worrying about the fire and poking around at it and nothing's really happening...it takes a while, and a bit of work from that point, and some 'troubleshooting' to get the fire started, and careful maintenance. I'm about to use a really bad analogy here, so bear with me: but the Rx drugs that you are on right now, in comparison to a bonfire, is kind of like starting with damp logs. (I was going to say wet wood but I thought better of it.) You can eventually start a fire with damp wood, but it's going to be more difficult than if you had dry logs. It's absolutely possible, but it's just a challenge that you have to work harder at to overcome. So, it's important for you to recognize that an efficient metabolism is not going to happen in 2 days, or 2 weeks, hell - maybe not 2 months - but the work you put into it, you will certainly get out of it. When you get your metabolism in a good state, your body will become like an incinerator - anything you put in it will be burned quickly and efficiently, you'll have much more 'natural' energy, you'll sleep better, think clearer, and you won't be so consumed with an exact cal count or whether or not you should or shouldn't have that piece of pie.
Speaking of which, I also believe that it's really important to (sometimes) satisfy your cravings. If you don't, you'll never feel completely 'satisfied'. Not only is it just not fun, but it's distracting and can deter you from your 'diet' really quickly because you're only focusing on things you can't have, as opposed to all the things you can. Messing up is okay - just get back on the horse and keep riding it out.

Earlier when I said that your doc shouldn't be putting Geodon and Seroquel together, on the surface, I would be correct. However, over the past hour or so, I did quite a bit of reading on the subject and although there is a definite risk, it would appear that, especially with the worry of weight gain, that the benefits will hopefully and likely outweigh the risks in this situation. I personally never took seroquel because I refused it when it was suggested by my doctor because of the high likelihood of weight gain, especially in comparison to other AP drugs. (For me, weight gain is pretty much "life or death" - I should say, was, when I was younger...but I refused so many meds, lol...oh boy...I digress again, sorry) but when I was put on Geodon, besides that whole being perpetually drunk thing, I didn't gain weight on it. After reading, it would appear that a lot of people in the same position as you or me seemed to also lose weight/not gain when switched from seroquel to geodon. So you have that possibility to look forward to, at least.

It's definitely important to follow the taper schedule your doc appears to be putting you on for the seroquel. Stopping it abruptly and switching to Geodon has, from what I read, shown to have some pretty nasty effects - which would definitely deter you from succeeding in any sort of diet you have planned for yourself.

As for physical activity, hopefully you will feel a bit more energized when the seroquel gets out of your system and the Geodon kicks in. Maybe (...you should) at this point, consider starting some type, any type of a physical activity regime. Even if it is as simple as walking around your block for 7 minutes. You have to start somewhere. The benefits of physical activity, especially for someone like yourself, are almost endless. It will improve your mental status (exercise releases endorphins which are great for mood and motivation), it will assist in your desire to lose weight, and it's just good for you to move around and get your blood flowing in your body. There's an older gal who lives around the corner from me, and she does her "daily block walk." Sometimes she even goes 2 blocks. On a hell of an ambitious day, she might even go 3. Now, to most, you may laugh or think it to be lame, worthless, pointless or silly - but ANYTHING is better than NOTHING. As I said, you have to start somewhere. When I started training for a 10k, I was pitiful - I could barely keep up a run for 20 seconds. So the first week, I walked 5 minutes and ran for 20 seconds, repeated 3 times. Second week, I walked 5 minutes, and ran for 30 seconds. It took me over a month to be able to run for over one minute without stopping. But, I worked at it, every day, and after months of training, (it took me over 3 months to be able to run a mile without stopping), I ran almost the entire 10k without stopping. And to think, I couldn't even run for 15 seconds...
My point is, start somewhere, no matter how small, and stick to it. Fuck what any of your "bros" have to say about it, you just do your thing, and that's all that matters.

 

[sekio]

EC (and related ECA) stacks are less "safe" than you would expect. Regular ephedrine use can elevate blood pressure to dangerous levels, and it loses effectiveness over the long term. Using them both regularly can lead to a nasty dependence too, where you'll feel tired and lethargic when you don't take your caffeine/ephedrine.

You can't expect to lose weight in a healthy way while leading a totally sedentary lifestyle. If your activity level is minimal, and you are not losing weight, increase your activity level! Start by doing something small - don't try to run a marathon in your current state, try going for a daily walk - but do *something* other than sit around all day.

If you are eating fewer calories than your basal metabolic rate, you are essentially starving yourself. You won't be able to stay healthy and maintain a diet like that for long. If you lose weight through calorie-cutting alone, what's stopping it from coming right back? You need to have a healthy way to deal with losing pounds while keeping your body maintained.

 

[A.m.Tilts]

i was on an EC Stack for 3 months in the summer of 2006 to lose some weight i gained partying.

I believe I started off taking (for the first week):
1 x 25mg Ephedrine HCL, 3 times daily
1 x 200mg Caffeine pill, 3 times daily

then after 2 weeks, i bumped it up to:
2 x 25mg Ephedrine, 3 times daily
2 x 200mg Caffeine, 3 times daily.

That combined with an excellent diet (6 small meals a day, high protein, low fat), free weights and cardio (i only used the treadmill with incline all the way up, running for 2 min, walking for 2 min until reaching 20 or 30 min) both 5 times a week, and 1 Cheat Day a week, I went from 200lbs to 165lbs.

I am unsure about the interactions with your meds. At the time I did this, I was not on any prescribed medication or illegal drugs whatsoever, but an EC stack, used properly, is very effective in burning fat. Just remember to stay cool and hydrated at all times.

Sekio is right about Ephedrine losing its effectiveness long term, and elevating blood pressure. I experienced both of those during this cutting cycle

 

[sekio]

50mg Ephedrine, 3 times daily
400mg Caffeine, 3 times daily.

This sounds like a good way to seriously fuck up your heart! Seriously, 150mg of ephedrine and 1200mg caffeine a day?! That is unsafe and unhealthy...

 

[tweex]

This sounds like a good way to seriously fuck up your heart! Seriously, 150mg of ephedrine and 1200mg caffeine a day?! That is unsafe and unhealthy...

Ha ha, total pussy shit. I was doing in the range of 4200mg to 4800mg caffeine daily right before I ended up in the mental hospital. Remember kids, even "safe" stimulants give you psychosis if you dose high enough 8(

No seriously though, 1g caffeine is not too bad, but I wouldn't mix with ephedrine at those doses, especially if working out.

 

[Lady Codone]

I used an ephedra + caffeine combo to lose weight after a few months on antipsychotics in college and it worked great. Not sure if it would have an equally powerful effect if I hadn't quit the psych meds though...

One thing to beware of is exercising after taking ephedrine. It can cause a dangerous rise in bp/heart rate/temperature. Make sure to stay hydrated and try to plan workouts BEFORE dosing.