EADD Theology Megathread

[rickolasnice]

raas.. do you believe that god did what the bible says he did to Egypt? (first born sons etc)

 

[Shambles]

^ The part of that story that most intrigues me is that this god fella not only inflicted various Badnesses on Egypt until they let the Hebrews go but also "Hardened Pharoah's heart" to stop him acquiescing before he finished inflicting said plague. Perverse barely covers it 8(

(also, even israeli archaeologists accept that the stuff in exodus can't be literally true so doubt anybody else does... at least i'd hope not)

Are you prepared to accept the validity of the Quran? (Remember.. if you do your God will no be haaapppy )

Depending on which book you favour, of course. Muslims would likely tend to be thinking he would be happy cos the Bible got it a bit wrong cos both halves were "corrupted by men". Sound familiar, Raas?

 

[Raasyvibe]

Hah yeah, 'far-fetched' is an understatement. There are so many logical explanations for something like that to happen. Rebound experience from using lots of hallucinogenics and dissociatives. Or rebound experience from opiate nods. Or being tired and drifting off. All rather more likely than having a vision of hell.

This is the thing. Guess you have to personally experience it to really have an idea... certainly it's not proving hell to anyone, but I do find it very interesting to read

And raas, you were on shrooms so you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your 'vision' to be an indicator of hell.

Yeah, I've had a few strange experiences seeing spirits on drugs before I even became a Christian. At the time i dismissed them as random hallucinations, but years later now I do wonder. But yeah I accept... empirically wise... as concrete as a wet noodle.

Originally Posted by raas_2012

Well, as the theory goes; Christiannity is a religion of truth. And inspired by God.

So I don't think God would choose a bunch of liars to write their stories on Jesus. If you believe in God, it's just common sense really.
So the OT must be true? It's not like God would choose a bunch of liars to write their stories about him.





For the record, atheists all over this thread speak as if their interpretation is the only valid one. Hundreds of examples if you read back. I don't see you complaining at them now do I? When validating whether a belief or hypothesis.. It's important to use a lil something called evidence.





I didn't think you'd take to the answer regarding the OT.... anyway to answer your questions:

It seems the meaning behind these stories is the important thing. How true they actually are, is another question...

For instance, the bible says world was created in 7 days. It clearly wasn't created in 7 precise 24 hour periods. You gotta be pretty daft to deny evolution. So I think it's fair to say that the bible was not meant to be a scientific journal. There we go again.. Cherry picking apart the bible.. seeing the bible as you wish to see it..





The important thing is if someone can learn from the stories and gain some wisdom or understanding of God. This will become their validity.
I believe in Jesus and all the writings in the NT that transpired because of him. As a believer of Jesus I have to go along with him and not obey the added ceremonial rules of the OT and the barbaric verses written by man. That's not cherry picking; it's just being practical. But the NT was written by man.. some men that could never have even met Jesus.. The OT isn't (supposed to be) Man's guess work of God wishes ya know? They are stories of men that spoke to God.. God is quoted many many times.. Again.. You are cherry picking the bible apart

"I believe in Jesus but Jesus' story isn't compatible to the OT so the OT must be wrong because *insert whatever reason sounds best to you here*"





I guess if Jesus personally re-edited the OT... it would then negate all the passages where he is defying the law. Would have been easier (and made more sense) to throw out the whole thing and start a new book, no? I mean.. according to you pretty much the whole of the OT is lies.. Jesus refers to Jehovah as his father.. so he is implying that the OT is true.. otherwise the guy in the sky that the OT talks about what not have been Jesus' Dad.. it would have been one of the thousands of other Gods that have come and gone throughout history.





Agreed. However there are some who do their study properly and actually make sense of it. If you research into it properly, it does work out and become a great book of spiritual knowledge. I wouldn't exactly call it knowledge. I mean.. I agree with most of Jesus' teachings but if you need a book to gain some morals isn't that a bit

Read it for what it is - a story book - then sure.





Again I agree. But in this example this is you, you're convinced it's nonsense... and don't seem to have any interest in accepting the validity behind it. Nope, sorry.. It's still you doing it. And there is no validity behind it.. Are you prepared to accept the validity of the Quran? (Remember.. if you do your God will no be haaapppy ) If not, why? They are both books written thousands of years ago about very similar things and no evidence to back up their claims.





Erm, not seen it in this thread. If it's happened please show me. Wasn't aimed at you personally.





Problem is, God gave us a choice to ignore him... so if he's provable by physical evidence, the whole thing falls on itself, doesn't it. What's my evidence? Love of life, really. I guess I see it all around me... My friends, my family, those I love and the precious moments I've experienced with them... The love I experience in visiting amazing places. The beauty all around us. This of course is not empirical proof. It cannot be... you have to give everyone else the choice to ignore God, remember? But he used to try SOO hard to get people to stop ignoring him.. where is he now? How could a loving God simply leave us with a really old (hard to read) book that is full of mistakes and contradictions and expect people to believe in it?

And none of those things you mentioned is evidence for a God.. they really.. really aren't.

I mean sure.. give us the choice to ignore him cool.. but there is nothing to ignore.. He's sitting there silently in a world impossible for us to detect not saying a word.. Raas.. why are you ignoring my God? He's been sitting in an immaterial world not saying a thing your whole life and you have the cheek to ignore him! I bet you don't even think he's real!! (btw my God is not your God)

"But God I never even knew the bible existed I grew up in the slums of India at the age of 6.. I couldn't even read"
"Nope. Don't wanna hear your excuses.. now burn in hell"





Well, if you read a little more in the gospels... then you'll see Jesus usually talks in parables and uses hyperboles. Yep.. and he does this why?

“And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.” Matt 13:10-11

To confuse people so they don't understand his teachings.. So they can burn in hell.

Oh ye loving lord.


Why do you not believe in Allah? Or Vishnu? Or Rah?

fucksake... is this punishment for my uber-posts on shambles?

Good answers by the way (you've misunderstood me a couple of times, but on the whole good critical responses). Am looking forward to getting back to you, just give me some time so I can do it properly.

Then why create "sin" in the first place?

I think sin is something that must be faced, exposed and tackeled, if it is to be eradicated. This also gives reason as to why God has made the world look like it may not have a creator, hiding his existance... it certainly exposes more sin, and gives an oppurtunity to tackle it. People often think they have to keep their crimes out of the police's knowledge, without realizing their sins are seen by God who can send to hell; create karma, curses etc.

Lifes a learning experience, Shambles. And here we are to learn about good and evil. We have the body and mind fully accustomed to experience and express both feelings of good and evil.

The temptation to evil and greed comes with some kind of want for desirability; feelings of empowerment. This in turn kills your spirituality of love... and so it enfolds... believe in God or not... you have a choice of good or evil on this planet, and this choice will effect your spirituality forever....

I'm sure there was a good verse in the OT about this....

Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

 

[Shambles]

You've kinda missed answering my question though, Raas. Why create "sin" in the first place if it's to be eradicated anyway and will do nowt but fuck folk over and send 'em (us - his beloved creations made in his own image) to eternal damnation if we get it wrong in the meantime... And then leave a gazillion conflicting instructional manuals/mythologies that are trite at best, incomprehensible for the most part and utter drivel at worst?

 

[Raasyvibe]

I guess it's created for us to learn about. In reality it gives us an oppurtunity to face up to our true nature, recognise it, and kill it.


"Those who got it wrong get eternal damnation?". It's not so cut n dry Mr Shambles. Life is quite a gift... Especially eternal life. Some of us simply don't deserve it. Simply, evil people walk among us. Rapists, child abusers, animal abusers, murderers, those who ruin lives for their own gain... What do you think should happen to these people?

'Tis why Christiannity is such an amazing revolution to me. Every time I've read or heard about something that really disgusted and upset me, to know it happens for a reason and the consequences are eternal, is quite staggering.

 

[Shambles]

But it's not our true nature according to the Bible is it? We're created in a god's image then got blamed for not understanding another thing he also created (for no conceivable reason) because he created us without being capable of understanding it and then he repeatedly failed to explain it despite several attempts after we messed up the first time. Pisspoor management skills it must be said.

 

[Raasyvibe]

But it's not our true nature according to the Bible is it? We're created in a god's image

Precisely. No-ones created as a monster. We all work in the same way, and that is evil leads to guilt and ruins your spirituallity of love and care. It's something all the naughty ones amongst us must face up to in the next life. Their actions have distorted and embarrassed their relation with God (who is love), and now love for fellow "brother and sister" becomes problematic because their sin has affected these relationships.

An evil person is not created "evil", they've more or less become evil. They have adopted evil because their desires are pent on greed.

then got blamed for not understanding another thing he also created (for no conceivable reason) because he created us without being capable of understanding it and then he repeatedly failed to explain it despite several attempts after we messed up the first time. Pisspoor management skills it must be said.

So your arguement is, the bible, it's unfair on decent chaps, who are not evil, who just can't fathom it?

It's a very valid point. And something thats become more applicable in this day and age where people are less willing to listen to 2,000 year old stories.

I accept I never came to Christiannity by reading the bible. In fact, it was only some time AFTER finding God that I even entertained reading it. And when I did start reading it you can imagine I was pretty freaked out by what I read in the OT.

On the plus side.... There's so many great verses, which really encourage to bring the best out of you, not to worry, and dissociate from evil. Jesus was a great example of God, really? It's a very uplifting book...

I guess it's a matter of inclination, Sham. If you're open to the possibility of God, and keen to learn... there's a lot in the bible that may astound you.

As I said before, to have that inclination really takes a change in the individual.

 

[Shambles]

So your arguement is, the bible, it's unfair on decent chaps, who are not evil, who just can't fathom it?

No, my argument is that it's a fukkin moronic system a two-year old mong could do better at setting out. To suggest it's a divine mystery is just insane. It's fukkin stooopid plain and simple. It makes no sense so is - quite literally - senseless. Is hardly a surprise so few people can believe in something so fundamentally flawed really.

Alternatively, it's perverse and set up to seem flawed when it somehow isn't. Which is doubly perverse.

So is this deity of yours a pervert or a moron? Going by the Bible I'm gonna say both... But that sounds suspiciously like the work of primitive-thinking men really. Which - coincidentally - is what I thought anyway.

Sammy G has a very good point about this thread being circular but I don't think he's appreciating it in the same way I do...

 

[1394]

No, my argument is that it's a fukkin moronic system a two-year old mong could do better at setting out.

That's unfair, most 2 year olds cannot manipulate people with fear. Nearly all of them have no grasp of iconoclasym and revolution, which are what all semitic religions were about.

 

[Shambles]

This is why most two year olds would do better

But point taken

 

[Raasyvibe]

No, my argument is that it's a fukkin moronic system a two-year old mong could do better at setting out

Mmmmm... think we need to look at your understanding of the "system". I'll get back to you next week, all these posts are giving me a headache and am quite busy at the mo.

Sammy G has a very good point about this thread being circular but I don't think he's appreciating it in the same way I do...

Damn, wish people would stop changing their names lol.

That's unfair, most 2 year olds cannot manipulate people with fear. Nearly all of them have no grasp of iconoclasym and revolution, which are what all semitic religions were about

I think it's this perception of religion which could really do with re-evaluating.

Believe it or not. There are some of us who actually love life; and naturally feel the need to praise God for the oppurtunities and experiences we recieve. Religion then becoming a great avenue for expression of spirituallity.

Christian values are pretty good on the whole. Primarily dissociating from what is wrong and living life in a decent way, and finding enjoyment of life in a respecful, compassionate way.

Sure, religion is taught by fallible people, and the spirit of many churches is not always the "embodiment of Christ". But it is unfair to attribute this to all who are religious.


I think I've said this 3 times now. Yes, Sammy G/Myshkin - love him or hate him - was spot on when describing the thread as circular. I'm feeling a lot of people are set in their own beliefs, and not willing to listen to others? I'm sure that's just as applicable to Xtians as it is atheists. Certainly very prevalent on this 'circular' thread.

 

[Shambles]

^ Am totally willing to listen to others... but not hugely excited about stuff I've heard a million times before and dismissed for a million reasons before. I'm mostly hoping there's summat I've missed really. Just in case. Still waiting. One day. Maybe.

Believe it or not. There are some of us who actually love life...

I totally believe it. Cos I do. In every day and in every way

Life is all the more precious when you know it ends. Properly ends. Is kinda pointless otherwise. Nowt but a hopeful preamble.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

NE.. I'd like to get your opinion on my opinion of peoples opinion on what "Jesus" or "Jehovah" said or did..

NE.. Were you raised a Christian?

I'd also like to point out to EADD (but especially NE) that you have ignored everything I'd said..

I'm sorry nickolasnice... I read your posts and had a response in my head. I just answered Pageys first. I'm not able to reel out paragraphs of Theology and Bible criticism and I don't want to give an automatic answer or speculation n that.. I'd rather have a bit of a read and pray around the questions Ask the boss like. :D

The short and rather less self indulgent answer to your question 'was I raised a Christian?' is no I wasn't. A rather longer answer is NSFWkd below.

Can I get back to you about your other posts please?

NSFW:

My Mum clearly had love for Jesus but didn't go to church or start getting into the bible until I was about 20. When I say she was into Jesus..she cried at films like King of Kings the Jesus of Nazareth series. So there was a seed there. She's a server now at an Anglican church and on the council. That seed manifested as a unique and awesome passion for God In the 70s she was something of a hippy though and more into Indian and New Age religions.
I cried at the films too :D and had a childrens bible with pictures in it. I can remember vividly spitting on the Romans that were crucifying Jesus in the picture and stroking his feet.

I got into Indian religions, Christianity and New Age stuff in my teens. But never actually put my faith in God for anything until I came back from a trip to India pregnant. Getting back together with the father seemed out of the question and I felt the only choices I had were to have the baby and leave university or have an abortion. I made a vague decision for the latter and even had an appointment. But as the date drew near I got more and more into a panic and started searching the bible for direction. Although i'd studied Theology at University I never felt that God spoke to me through it. The first time he did was when I found a credit card piece of paper on the floor in my bedroom with a verse from the Prophet Isaiah:

11 He shall feed His flock like a shepherd; He shall gather the lambs with His arm and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. Isaiah 40:11

The verse gave me peace and I put my faith in Him and started to trust Him as Father and Provider. I joined a couple of churches but settled for a few years in an Anglican church and later we got happy clappy at the local evangelical church and God was faithful to His promise If anyone asks me when I became a Christian I usually tell them when I found that verse. But I wonder if that childlike faith when I gobbed on the Romans lol wasn't the beginning.

 

[Shambles]

In relation to your NSFW'd bit, Jess: I fukkin those auld 50s Biblical epics. Cos they make a myth properly mythical - would struggle to tell most of 'em apart from any other swords 'n' sandals stuff of the times. And for good reason.

Think you're being a tad harsh on the Romans though. God made 'em do it, no? Surely they should be blessed. Without them there would be no salvation after all.

Do like to hear about conversion stories too. Is one of those things that most fascinates me. What turns an otherwise sane person dopey

 

[1394]

Mmmmm... think we need to look at your understanding of the "system". I'll get back to you next week, all these posts are giving me a headache and am quite busy at the mo.

Damn, wish people would stop changing their names lol.



I think it's this perception of religion which could really do with re-evaluating.

Believe it or not. There are some of us who actually love life; and naturally feel the need to praise God for the oppurtunities and experiences we recieve. Religion then becoming a great avenue for expression of spirituallity.

Christian values are pretty good on the whole. Primarily dissociating from what is wrong and living life in a decent way, and finding enjoyment of life in a respecful, compassionate way.

Sure, religion is taught by fallible people, and the spirit of many churches is not always the "embodiment of Christ". But it is unfair to attribute this to all who are religious.


I think I've said this 3 times now. Yes, Sammy G/Myshkin - love him or hate him - was spot on when describing the thread as circular. I'm feeling a lot of people are set in their own beliefs, and not willing to listen to others? I'm sure that's just as applicable to Xtians as it is atheists. Certainly very prevalent on this 'circular' thread.

Do you guys ever get together and light big fires while you play the guitar and sing songs about god?

Everything has to be re-evaluated, culture needs to be re-evaluated. Christian values on the whole are fascist, they are about this versus that.

THAT is not what anything should be about.

Should all-encompassing

and stuff.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

You've kinda missed answering my question though, Raas. Why create "sin" in the first place if it's to be eradicated anyway and will do nowt but fuck folk over and send 'em (us - his beloved creations made in his own image) to eternal damnation if we get it wrong in the meantime... And then leave a gazillion conflicting instructional manuals/mythologies that are trite at best, incomprehensible for the most part and utter drivel at worst?

Shamblebabblespottybum Yer know when Raas said he's given answers in other threads several times and people often leave. Not acknowledging what they thought of the answer or if it had changed their view at all. Then they come back a few months later with the same queery. That's how I feel about this question.

God did'nt create sin. Everything in the garden was good. ( some versions say 'well good' after God created woman but I can't find which one. I must have hallucinated it.8( )

Sin in Augustine of Hippos words is a 'privation of good' or absence of Good. Absence cant be created its a nothing or a void.. Excuse the brevity I'm behind big time. Working on richolasnices atm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absence_of_good

 

[Shambles]

That is in no way the definition of sin, NE. Sin is supposedly a thing. Brought on by a fit of scrumping apparenly. Didn't exist other than in the ineffable mind of the creator before then and was gifted to us all thereafter. You cannot have a creator who doesn't create everything. It's his job description.

Also, Raas seemed to be intending to give a different answer - next week apparently - and am sure he can speak for himself. He seems to have picked up my bad habits

 

[Raasyvibe]

Christian values on the whole are fascist, they are about this versus that.

THAT is not what anything should be about.

Should all-encompassing

and stuff.

I'm befuddled. Do enlighten me... how did Jesus's teachings become fascist?

 

[Shambles]

When the Fascists used them to "justify" Fascism? Just a guess.

Not saying it was a reading I agree with... but is just one of many really.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

Where does it say its a 'thing'.

Sorry for butting in there. I honestly just looked at the last couple of posts like youre not sposed to. I didn't realise you two were on a roll.