EADD Theology Megathread

[badandwicked]

Well well Popey resigned, first resignation of a pope in 600 years. Old and tired at 85, but I wonder if there were other reasons aka lack of faith...

 

[knock]

wow, I wouldn't have expected that. Thought he would be round till his last gasp? Not that that would have been much longer.

 

[badandwicked]

I know, if you ask me its a bit

 

[Raasyvibe]

How can you possibly know the gospels allow Christians to "understand Jesus" when you say you don't really know whether they have any hisorical validity, Raas? As a few of us have pointed out now and Rachamim puts rather succinctly:



So how do you know anythng supposedly said by Jesus was said by Jesus and not just the personal opinion of people righting decades after his supposed death who never knew him (if anybody ever did)? Seems a bit of a stretch, no?

I'm going to give a really boring answer to ths one.

Because I am a believer in God. I believe Jesus had recieved divine intervention to spread the truth of God for those willing to listen. That God is love; not a tyrant... wants to see good in us and is asking us to turn from the darker sides that our ego-consciousness allows us to experience (Pride, egoism, lust etc)

And that if God is working through Jesus to demonstrate himself, he will also work through those related to him to spread the word of his existance. Christiannity a religion that extolls truth. (Though we know many abuse that) And from Jesus, to his apostles, to their apostles - the intent of the early church is to spread the truthful word of God so others may become enlightened.

Why I've never been concerned about the histocracy of the text, because I accept it is the word of God. A bit unlike sinful King David making a concesus of his army (Sorry...) I've not doubted the bible to the point of speculating who wrote it and if they were decietful. I believe God is perfect and he's not going to balls this one up by letting manipulative liars write his gospels. (Though I accept this wasn't always the case in the OT)

Though there is not concrete evidence Jesus ever existed (The guy even did a disappearing act after death) acceptance of his existance and authenticity of scripture then comes from reading the entire bible and seeing such relevance to my life issues, being amazed at so many verses, and realizing the words eminate from a supreme mind. This has given me a personal satisfaction.

(Boring, controversial, inconclusive answer... I know... need to research histocracy to make it more credible... but it's an honest answer of my understanding to date)

Well well Popey resigned, first resignation of a pope in 600 years. Old and tired at 85, but I wonder if there were other reasons aka lack of faith...

Quite a task for an 85 year old. I don't think he would have become pope in the first place if he was having doubts about his faith.

 

[badandwicked]

Quite a task for an 85 year old. I don't think he would have become pope in the first place if he was having doubts about his faith.

Regardless of age they usually do it to the grave. People change, its not inconceivable his strength of faith had altered, or he may have felt due to personal opinions he was unable to continue as the head of the catholic church.

 

[Raasyvibe]

^ It's certainly not common. But if the man feels he's not up to it, and he's giving his position up for the benefit of the church, we should respect that.

Judging by his words, it doesn't appear that his faith is an issue.

Dear Brothers,

I have convoked you to this Consistory, not only for the three canonizations, but also to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church.

After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry.

I am well aware that this ministry, due to its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering.

However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfil the ministry entrusted to me

 

[badandwicked]

^ i don't respect or disrespect, I'm party neutral I saw on tv last night they said the previous pope wanted to be a witness to aging, he wanted people to see him growing old ill and infirm and take comfort from that, that they're not alone. I thought that was quite cool. But if this guy reckons he's not up to the job then its fair he should let someone else give it a bash.

They said he may be remembered as the ostrich pope, hid his head in the sand while the abuse issue simmered for years.

I'd like to hear what his predecessor says about homosexuality and contraception. A religious figure, I forget who, said as humans we are not in possession of the truth. We can only be led to a deeper understanding and knowledge of the truth. I interpreted this to mean those that rant about X Y & Z are wrong to do so, all it takes is one pope to pipe up and say 'chillax everyone, they cool' and lo and behold the gays and those that don't want billions of kids are back in the fold.

Lets wait and see.... ever the optimist

 

[Shambles]

Saw Popey was on the way out last night. Is a surprise. Kinda makes you wonder why he took the job in the first place if he was worried about being too old. Was hardly in the first flush of (Hitler) youth then either. Sounds a tad fishy to me. I wonder if Ms WIcked might be on the right hopeful track? Could it be that enough voices within the Catholic Church are pushing for reform of some of their more heinously harmful policies and he's stepping aside? Almost certainly not but would make a nice change. A very tiny step in the... if not the right direction at least the less wrong direction...

Either that or he knows he's about to be outed as a paedo and thought it better to not be Popey in Prison

Raas: I won't reply specifically to your reasons for accepting the Gospels as there's not a lot to say to it really. I guess that's the definition of faith: belief in the absence of evidence and/or in the face of evidence to the contrary. If there was the slightest shred of evidence for the truth of the Gospels I suppose you wouldn't need faith. Will reply to your loooooooooooong post on previous page sometime soon but lost all me bookmarks when switching to new pooter so am somewhat short of most of me linkies and research sources at the moment.

 

[Ben So Furry]

I agree with Shambles and B&W if he truly believed he was God's representative on Earth he couldn't quit and would believe the almighty would protect and guide him throughout his duties. Unless he was instructed by the almighty to quit of course.

 

[badandwicked]

Maybe he's been diagnosed with Alzheimers and they need him to gtfo before he goes totally crazy and starts telling his followers to accept and tolerate their fellow wo/mans choices as long as they're based on and driven by love.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Govern the bark of St Peter??

That aside, he's lost his faith. Thats what that last paragraph says to me. Ever-changing world, can't defend/explain this shit anymore. Bye. Popey.

 

[Shambles]

St Peter's bark, yesterday...

NSFW:

They do have an odd way with words do pontiffs it must be said.

EDIT: And I agree with SHM that that last paragraph seems very carefully worded. Suspiciously vague. And, as mentioned, ain't it supposed to be the lordy who decides such things? Did he receive the Blessed Miracle of the Holy Papal P45?

 

[Raasyvibe]

I guess that's the definition of faith: belief in the absence of evidence and/or in the face of evidence to the contrary. If there was the slightest shred of evidence for the truth of the Gospels I suppose you wouldn't need faith. .

It's not quite so naive. Faith is built on evidence. But that evidence is not just drawn from the dates of scripture, but from the personal revelations of scripture, of life experience; a reflection of what has been learnt in life and yadda yadda yadda

If of course, someone could significantly disprove the authenticity of scripture then I would have to reconsider my "faith", because of course it must have a logical structure to it.

That aside, he's lost his faith. Thats what that last paragraph says to me. Ever-changing world, can't defend/explain this shit anymore. Bye. Popey

To be fair, the job of the pope must become increasingly demanding with time. Since Darwin, and the general evolution of science, I think it's fair to say people are becoming more sceptical about the bible and God. More issues arise in regards to credibility of the bible, evolution, gay marriage, abortion, IVF...

Takes a lot of energy to deal with these issues and handle the growing concerns of those outside the church. Poor geezer just couldn't do it anymore.

The uniqueness of his retirement, could be attributed to the age we are living in, where 2,000 yr old writings are becoming less favourable to the practical and observable advances in science.

(^ I'm not turning atheist here BTW lol. Just stating how things are, the job of the religious man is getting a little tougher)

 

[Shambles]

God ‘probably going to call it a day’ as well

God, the Lord Creator of Heaven and Earth, has announced that in the wake of Pope Benedict’s resignation, He too is thinking about ‘calling time on the whole creation thing’.

In a press conference held before the heavenly host and selected journalists, God said that he felt Pope Benedict “had got the right idea about this divine rule gig” and that he was “probably going to wrap the whole thing up quite soon”.

Sources close to His Omnipotence say that the prospect of eternity has really being playing on his mind of late. ‘He’s been feeling his age over the last few millennia,’ said one heavenly observer holding a bunch of keys. ‘In fact, he’s never really got over the death of his son.’

Since the death of Jesus, God has taken a much diminished interest in human affairs with many commentators wondering if he is paying any attention at all.

Ablative Fabsolute

linky

Fundamentally flawed for obvious reasons but tickled me enough to be worth a quote

 

[rachamim]

Raas_2012: 1) "The Christian Canon is more about Apostolic Authority.': Says the Catholic Church. In reality is is about State Authority. Constantine wasn't even a Christian but recognised that having Christianity become the State Religion would serve to unite a rapidly fracturing empire. It is the same with the Qur'an in Islam, it represents the views of the state and not the faith. Islam had a distinct advantage in that canonisation took place much earlier than it had in Christianity, and, literacy was almost nil amongst Arabs. Even into the late Umayyad Era scribes were almost universally Christian slaves. The Jewish Canon on the other hand was constructed to meet the narrow views of a small group of theologians. It took place just after the end of the Bar Kochba Rebellion and so it represents a view that seriously downplays the huge ethno-nationalist component of the religion.

It is very instructive to read the Apocryphal texts. I especially like the Wisdom Books.

II) 'The Christian Canon was constructed not to misrepresent Jesus.': Christianity was much more vibrant and diverse before Constantine. The Canon plays up the Divinity of Jesus, obesiance to temporal authority and the rejection of the faith's Judaic roots. My recommendation to anyone? Carefully read the Apocrypha.

III) 'Was Rachamim referring to Matthew 10:35-36 when he mentioned violence?'; Absolutely.

IV) 'The meaning of Matthew 10:35-36 is that Jesus will divide righteous from unrighteous.': It could be. It can also be Jesus warning followers that choosing to follow him might cause families to break up, considering that he was only speaking to Jews. However, that verse is basically taken verbatim from the Book of Micah (7:5-6), and can be found paraphrased as well in Isaiah 9:14 in the Jewish Canon and 2 places in the Jewish Apocrypha, I Enoch, 56:7 and 100:1-2). In this context it is entirely about the immediate precursor of the Messianic Advent. In other words, just before the Messiah appears families will be split into Believers and Unbelievers. As try as they might the early Christian Theologians couldn't get around some very uncomfortable facts ("facts" according to Christianity). Jesus was a Jew and Judaism, try as they might to humanise it for Western tastes, is an extremely violent faith, especially during the lifetime of Jesus (IF he existed).

 

[rachamim]

Raas_2012 Post #424: 'Accepting the Bible...': The problem with that however is that it was a tiny group of humans who picked and chose what the Bible looks like today (this true of Islam and Judaism as well). What you call the "Word of G-D" is really a rendition of what Bishop Eusubius of Caeseria handpicked to please Emperor Constantine between 325 and 335 CE/AD. Eusubius had said in 325 that 6 of those books were highly suspect but not having been able to fully debate the issues surrounding them he lopped them together with the others and had them composed into 50 Bibles for Constantine to distribute throught his empire. So, even the man who created your Bible doubted almost a quarter of it.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

Raas_2012 Post #424: 'Accepting the Bible...': The problem with that however is that it was a tiny group of humans who picked and chose what the Bible looks like today (this true of Islam and Judaism as well). What you call the "Word of G-D" is really a rendition of what Bishop Eusubius of Caeseria handpicked to please Emperor Constantine between 325 and 335 CE/AD. Eusubius had said in 325 that 6 of those books were highly suspect but not having been able to fully debate the issues surrounding them he lopped them together with the others and had them composed into 50 Bibles for Constantine to distribute throught his empire. So, even the man who created your Bible doubted almost a quarter of it.

Eusebius didn't 'create' the bible or 'lop' it together you're mistaken there. The bible evolved over the centuries and an informal canon resembling the final book was agreed 100 years before Eusebius sent copies to the churches of Constantinople following a recommendation by Constantine.

NSFW:

In that city which bears my name, by the assistance of God, our Savior's providence, a vast multitude of men have joined themselves to the most holy church. Whereas, therefore, all things do there receive a very great increase, it seems highly requisite, that there should be more churches erected in that city. Wherefore, do you most willingly receive that which I have determined to do. For it seemed fit, to signify to your prudence, that you should order fifty copies of the divine scriptures (the provision and use thereof you know to be chiefly necessary for the instruction of the church) to be written on well-prepared parchment, by copyists most skillful in the art of accurate and fair writing; which (copies) must be very legible, and easily portable in order to their being used. Moreover, letters have been sent off to the chief financial officer of the diocese, giving instructions that he should take care for the providing of all things necessary in order to finishing of said copies. This, therefore, shall be your responsibility, to see that the written copies be forthwith provided. You are also empowered by the authority of this, our letter, to have use of two public carriages, to aid in their transport. For, by this means, those which are transcribed fair, may most commodiously be conveyed even to our sight; to wit, one of the deacons of your church being employed in the performance hereof. Who, when he comes to us, shall be made sensible of our bounty. God preserve you, dear brother!

At the time heretical texts were rife. Whether or not Constantine thought disseminating a closed canon was a prudent political move is irrelevant,it was a move that protected the integrity of the bible.
Its collation wasn't a panicky rushed job under the direction of some fearsome Roman Emperor either. The church as a whole had begun to accept a list resembling the final bible as early as the second century with the Muratorian Canon.
Eusebius may have doubted a couple of the books but the final decision was made by the church not an individual.

 

[pinkpapaver]

It's weird when you get guided by a force/ instinct. I ended up in a prayer group today. I wasm't forced or coerced or anything. Story is I have a few ailments . I've been meaning to go the docs for months. Been off work all week and really should have gone on monday, but I am a bit lazy. So I slept in a bit today again and thought I wouldn't get an appt. till the arvo. At 10 am I had an uncontrollable urge to walk down to the docs to check if there was an appt. free. There was - with a real doc too! (normally they give you a stoody doc) So , i took the appt, for 10. 50. I waited till 11.30 to be seen. While waiting i realised that my bank had gone overdrawn and i have an account that isn't meant to go over drawn. I panicked at the thought of there being 30 days worth of over drawn charges to be applied just as my 1st wages of the year went in. So after the docs I popped into the bank. The bank where quite helpful and reduced the damage on my account to under £10 so unauthorised charges did not apply. ( I went from almost floods of tears to joy in a nano sec- and still think banks are a bit twatty- I have another account that does not let me go overdrawn at all at all so does not charge for returned dds)
I left the bank with joy in my heart and set off in the direction of my home. My parish church and bank are almost next door. I looked into the car park and saw a couple of cars. (normally tis all locked up, i like to pass thru and light candles but never can)
I skipped down the path and entered to find a sort of mass without the consecration thing going on. There were only 6 people there, they told me they were having a prayer afterwards and I was welcome to stay. So I did. It was quite nice really. I just watched the candle burning and made rays come out of it. Honestly, it was quite nice. I'm going to do it like a muslim from now on and do me prayers and church visiting on a friday. (I work sat night n sunday morning)

Which brings me onto another point. I really still don't like religious rammers or damners whatever their faith or lack thereof. The arrogance of the Iam right does annoy me.

I love that Phil Collins song. I've been talking to Jesus. I do like the idea that a nun brought up today that you will only get a cross that you can carry. You won't get anything thrown at you that you can't cope with. I like those metaphors.

I'm not too confused. since the death of my uncle I do believe that a bit of faith is good for those who want it to be good for them
tis a private thing. I know I'm not following religion in the way that the religious leaders want it to be followed (the evangelical spread the good word stuff) coz that's the bit I'm uncomfortable with. I'll spread good, and use metaphors and parables to people to give them comfort n that but no way am I saying "thou shalt blah blah" or "your religion is shite, mine is right" (even if I think it is. (actually, I might if some one is spouting out n out shite)

I also love the way that so many names do come from the old book. I love translating names. Transfigure or disfigure? That is the wuestion.

(I do go on....watched that magdelane laundry film yesterday too. That is certainly the bad side of religion. some twisted bitches end up nuns alright)

 

[NightsEpiphany]

(I do go on....watched that magdelane laundry film yesterday too. That is certainly the bad side of religion. some twisted bitches end up nuns alright)

It came on the telly behind me and I switched it off. Too dark! They were twisted you're right. Religion, any religion, becomes demonic when its legalistic. Its exactly the kind of pharasaical behaviour Jesus came to liberate us from. God is Love there was no love with those people. They practiced blind hatred and oppression. Thats the devil not God.

It sounds like the world gave you a break this morning Pink..and that prayer group sounds lovely. Actually, I've been going to a new church the last few weeks. Its so soothing and peaceful. The incense smoke mingles magically with the candle light and kind of wafts up with the prayers. I've come out every time feeling spiritually nourished and restored. I'm sure if I decide to become a permanent member of that church there will be challenges. There always are when you join any kind of community but i'm glad I found it. Its precious.

I think the verse you was talking about might be this one from Corinthians:

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Or
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.Mat 12.20.

I often lean on those verses too. Sometimes saying 'lord I cant take too much more bending I'm going to break!'.. but I'm still here bruised but still standing. ( Is that a Phil Collins song as well ? :D )

I'm not too confused. since the death of my uncle I do believe that a bit of faith is good for those who want it to be good for them
tis a private thing. I know I'm not following religion in the way that the religious leaders want it to be followed (the evangelical spread the good word stuff) coz that's the bit I'm uncomfortable with. I'll spread good, and use metaphors and parables to people to give them comfort n that but no way am I saying "thou shalt blah blah" or "your religion is shite, mine is right" (even if I think it is. (actually, I might if some one is spouting out n out shite)

I havn't followed in the way the rest of the fold have either... and a few have bleated that I'm back sliding or not doing christianity right. I might have made some horrendous mistakes and gone down some wrong roads but in my heart of hearts i've wanted to follow God and know his will and do it. He moves in mysterious ways sometimes. I don't think i'm fantastic publicity.. I wouldn't put a fish sticker on the back window of the car. I'm too road ragey. Maybe in time by the grace of God i'll be fit to bare the fish.

Theres no right or wrong way of being a Christian anyway. Some are called to preach and some quietly minister healing verses, like you, when moved to do so.

Edit: Btw Pink.. How did it go at the docs? Are you alright?

 

[Shambles]

At the time Christian texts were rife. Whether or not Constantine thought disseminating a closed canon was a prudent political move is crucial, it was a move that ossified the lack of integrity of the bible.

Its collation was a panicky rushed job under the direction of some fearsome Roman Emperor. The church as a whole had begun to dictate a list resembling the final bible as early as the second century with the Muratorian Canon.

Eusebius doubted several of the books but the final decision was made by some blokes not an individual bloke.

Fix'd