EADD Benzo Discussion V. Waking up in a Wakefield skip

[Bleaney]

Exercise does very little for my anxiety, unless it's something like hill walking to give views of wide open spaces, which does provide some kind of benefit and perspective for a time. The better the view the better the benefit. But it's only a temporary sticking plaster kind of solution ime, as it doesnt deal with the core issues, and I cant go mountain climbing every day before or after work.

A couple of things that I did find helpful for my anxiety and stress was cutting out coffee and nicotine. I probably got roughly a 25% improvement of symptoms doing that, with about 25% of the anxiety and stress being replaced by calmness. This move also helped a great deal with my problems with falling asleep.

But I still need something for the other 75% that remains untreated, unless I treat it myself.

Antidepressants for anxiety seem extremely hit and miss by most accounts, many people say things like they had to try several different types before they found one that helped them slightly. Lots of people say that none of them even touch the sides. Myself included in that.

It seems to me that the whole class of SSRIs are much of a muchness, with only slight variations between the different types, just as all benzos are broadly similar, with only relatively slight variations in their effects profiles. If one of each does or does not work for you, you're probably going to have similar results from all of them.

It just feels like people with anxiety are being fobbed off with SSRI crap that wont work most of the time. And that also has w/d syndromes just as bad as benzos, by most accounts.

The result of all that being that lots of people turn to the black market for solutions that they know are effective. It's a completely ridiculous state of affairs.

 

[LoginNotSecure]

Exercise does very little for my anxiety, unless it's something like hill walking to give views of wide open spaces, which does provide some kind of benefit and perspective for a time. The better the view the better the benefit. But it's only a temporary sticking plaster kind of solution ime, as it doesnt deal with the core issues, and I cant go mountain climbing every day before or after work.

A couple of things that I did find helpful for my anxiety and stress was cutting out coffee and nicotine. I probably got roughly a 25% improvement of symptoms doing that, with about 25% of the anxiety and stress being replaced by calmness. This move also helped a great deal with my problems with falling asleep.

But I still need something for the other 75% that remains untreated, unless I treat it myself.

Antidepressants for anxiety seem extremely hit and miss by most accounts, many people say things like they had to try several different types before they found one that helped them slightly. Lots of people say that none of them even touch the sides. Myself included in that.

It seems to me that the whole class of SSRIs are much of a muchness, with only slight variations between the different types, just as all benzos are broadly similar, with only relatively slight variations in their effects profiles. If one of each does or does not work for you, you're probably going to have similar results from all of them.

It just feels like people with anxiety are being fobbed off with SSRI crap that wont work most of the time. And that also has w/d syndromes just as bad as benzos, by most accounts.

The result of all that being that lots of people turn to the black market for solutions that they know are effective. It's a completely ridiculous state of affairs.

You say it remains untreated unless you treat it yourself, but have you gone 3 plus months sober without anything to "prop you up" or 6 months even? That therein lies your answer. You're making a rod for your back and excuses. Cut out any kind of nicotine, sugar, energy drinks, get out and do more, be more active, eat healthily and regularly, try clean and sober living.

People that do, and stick to it, do find dramatic changes. Those that try it for a week, or are half arsed about it see very little to no changes, as is to be expected.

Easy for me to say siting here in my ivory tower, I'm well aware. But the data doesn't lie and I've seen it and experienced it in my working profession.

Continue with the illicit usage, of unknown drugs at unknown dosages and it'll never end well. Not only may you have an adverse reaction, but poly drug use will always lead to more drugs or higher dosages - or both.

Bit of a tough love approach with no condescending undertones, I know that can sometimes be hard for it to come across when it's just a wall of text and no emotive speaking/face behind it. Nor am I trying to be preachy, just wishing you well and healthy.

PLUR

 

[Bleaney]

You say it remains untreated unless you treat it yourself, but have you gone 3 plus months sober without anything to "prop you up" or 6 months even? That therein lies your answer. You're making a rod for your back and excuses. Cut out any kind of nicotine, sugar, energy drinks, get out and do more, be more active, eat healthily and regularly, try clean and sober living.

People that do, and stick to it, do find dramatic changes. Those that try it for a week, or are half arsed about it see very little to no changes, as is to be expected.

In fact yes I have, and I have posted about my long taper and 6 month abstinence (from everything black market) several times.

I only used Valerian root for sleep. Also phenergan and dyphenhydramine. But I stopped using them also, and my sleep eventually restored itself after a couple of months into the abstinence.

That was around the time I left this board for some time. (When I began my taper.) I eventually re-appeared under my current alias some time after I'd fallen off the wagon.

The whole abstinence thing was excruciating.

After 6 months things had improved substantially for me, but things were still a nightmare. That's how things were before I ever started using benzos, and I don't think I had much more recovery or improvement left to happen. Maybe just a little bit.

I've since leanred that it can take up to 5 years in the worst cases for the brain's GABA to restore it's natural balance, following a heavy or prolonged benzo habit.

But as I say I think I'd done most of my healing after the 6 months abstinence, and long taper, and I don't believe there was any huge amount of further improvement left.

My social anxiety has now seemingly long since become an intractable conditioned response. That's not an excuse. It's just the way it is.

If I'd discovered my Autism and learnt to work with it decades earlier than I did I may have been able to act before the anxiety became ingrained.

Although I think I had it from birth, alongside my Autism. But it just got worse because I didn't know the cause.

I know you meant well, but the usual advice doesn't always fit or work for everyone.

 

[Survival0200]

Go running? IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD!?


:backintothebushes:

Yeah, going to the outside world doesn't really feel appealing when you're really anxious.

If you’re in the UK, getting anything for anxiety these days is being pushed to antidepressants, even privately - you’ll struggle.

And running, don’t dismiss it without trying it. It’s free and it won’t hurt.

Maybe I could ... I just felt like the doc was just fucking with me with this kind of advice. My friend who has similar issues calls this kind of advice "shit advice".

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong way wanting a simple solution for anxiety - a pill that I could take when I need it? But I know there are meds that would help.

 

[sadasaulna]

I wouldnt put too much faith into the validity if you just get the 10 pointer. I looked into it myself properly and did the 50 point AQ (Autism Quotient), along with loads of other reasearch.

By that point I was open to the possibility that I probably was on the spectrum. It has helped knowing and understanding many reasons behind things once you go down the rabbit hole of learning about it.

If you do have Autism, it's very likely to be the main driver of your Bz use, as it is my case, with all the sensory issues, and the social anxiety, and awkwardness.

It was the AQ50 (done by CMHT) that resulted in the GP referral. The GP will not be assessing just being asked to refer onto a specialist.

 

[LoginNotSecure]

In fact yes I have, and I have posted about my long taper and 6 month abstinence (from everything black market) several times.

I only used Valerian root for sleep. Also phenergan and dyphenhydramine. But I stopped using them also, and my sleep eventually restored itself after a couple of months into the abstinence.

That was around the time I left this board for some time. (When I began my taper.) I eventually re-appeared under my current alias some time after I'd fallen off the wagon.

The whole abstinence thing was excruciating.

After 6 months things had improved substantially for me, but things were still a nightmare. That's how things were before I ever started using benzos, and I don't think I had much more recovery or improvement left to happen. Maybe just a little bit.

I've since leanred that it can take up to 5 years in the worst cases for the brain's GABA to restore it's natural balance, following a heavy or prolonged benzo habit.

But as I say I think I'd done most of my healing after the 6 months abstinence, and long taper, and I don't believe there was any huge amount of further improvement left.

My social anxiety has now seemingly long since become an intractable conditioned response. That's not an excuse. It's just the way it is.

If I'd discovered my Autism and learnt to work with it decades earlier than I did I may have been able to act before the anxiety became ingrained.

Although I think I had it from birth, alongside my Autism. But it just got worse because I didn't know the cause.

I know you meant well, but the usual advice doesn't always fit or work for everyone.

So no, you haven’t tried clean and sober living is what I’m reading.

 

[Bleaney]

You obviously didn't read my post.

 

[Bleaney]

Thank you for the replies folks.

Cold turkey is not the way, certainly not from a few years sustained dailly dosing.
I ended up in that position myself earlier this year and fell apart mentally.
Far too many symptoms to cope with, i live alone and won't be found if i have a serious seizure.
I dropped last time and wet myself, that may have been fainting as i did'nt eat for a couple of days.

My plan after re-instating was to get the year over with whilst saving and buying my whole taper amount in one purchase and go for it next year.

Now i'm going into a wanted change of career, but i can't do it whilst in withdrawals.
So i'm trying my best to ration and stay sane at the same time.

Apologies if it reads like a ramble i've only slept for two hours, i've had a bad back and finding a comfortable position to lay down is difficult.

Always appreciated folks, take care yourselves.

Completely agree, as would anyone who knows anything about quitting a sustained benzo habit that has ran for several years.

Unless your a sado masochist, or being treated by a sadist. Although I suspect LNS was just trolling / taking the piss with that post.

I'm sure you know that it's all about getting the brains GABA to re-upregulate itself, after this down regulates itself in response to continual benzo use.

It can be a very long and slow process, but according to at least one credible source, everyone can and does recover, in time. I've seen many people say that a full recovery is not possible, and that a person will never be the same again following benzo use. But that does not seem to be true, and I don't believe it. It can take anything from weeks to months to up to 5 years in the worst case!

I certainly sympathise with anyone who has to endure a 5 year recovery. I've been through roughly a 12 month very gradual taper, but it was still awful even at the end of such a gradual taper, and then this was followed by 6 months of abstinence. Things were mostly back to normal for me by then, but the problem for me is that my 'normal' nervous system makes me a mal-adjusted fucked up, massively over stimulated nervous wreck of a misfitted weirdo. It seems like a no brainer to me, that I would chose not to live my life in such a state. Seeing as I do have a choice.

I'm not sure I understand what your current issue is, is it financial? If so, that's going to be stressful, but could you not get some kind of loan or overdraft to bridge any shortfalls until you get established in your new job, and once your re-stabalised on a specific dose in your new job, at that point you could then consider starting a very gradual taper.

Ashton Method all the way.

 

[50shadesofDave]

Thanks Bleaney, i am cutting it fine but should be ok fingers crossed, i'm well into my overdraft and credit card already, i found three strips that must have dropped behind my stash place, so those and the rationing should see me over the line touch wood.

And yea, i've read various threads on timelines and watched many vids on tapering taking a long time as you said, i've planned 12-18 months to drop 20mg as i'll be happy to get to 10mg and maintain or even stick at 10mg as i don't think i can live life totally sober, i'd rather be on 10mg diaz than fall off the booze wagon, i don't want to drink again but with it being in nearly every shop you go in i'd crumble one day.

So i'm going to take it nice and slow, no pressure also, i'm not going to punish myself for it, so if it takes two years then so be it.

I've been exercising as much as possibly, i want to go into next year in better shape physically and mentally.

Got to fight the fight so i'll be as positive as possible heading into it.

Take care Bleaney, and the rest of you.

Dave.
Oh and thank you.

 

[LoginNotSecure]

I only used Valerian root for sleep. Also phenergan and dyphenhydramine. But I stopped using them also, and my sleep eventually restored itself after a couple of months into the abstinence.

So I reiterate again, no sober/clean living.

You obviously didn't read my post.

I did, see above.

Clean and sober living means exactly that, nothing extra. Not even multivitamins. Which I may add, unless you've been told you need additional vitamin(s), then there is no reason to be taking a multivitamin - if you're getting a balanced, well rounded diet.

You've literally nothing to lose by trying to, except better health.

But, you do you.

 

[Bleaney]

So I reiterate again, no sober/clean living.

I did, see above.

Clean and sober living means exactly that, nothing extra. Not even multivitamins. Which I may add, unless you've been told you need additional vitamin(s), then there is no reason to be taking a multivitamin - if you're getting a balanced, well rounded diet.

You've literally nothing to lose by trying to, except better health.

But, you do you.

Yes I only did the valerian etc at the beginning, and then I did 6 months with no psychoactive substances.

It did not work out for me.

As you say, I will do what works for me. You know you're not going to change my course. If there's consequences to pay months or years or decades down the line, then so be it. I guess that's kind of fatalistic, but at this stage I don't really care.

The improvements in the here and now make it worth it for me.

Apparently Autism is linked with reduced / impaired GABA functionality, so that would explain why anxiety is an extremely common co-morbidity.

I forgot to mention previously that I also did another complete reset on my substance use during 3 or 4 months of furlough during the Covid lockdown. Unfortunately that did not include abstinence from alcohol as well, but it was a very useful opportunity to reset my benzo tolerance. IIRC, at that time I didnt even need to taper as my usage was still so minimal. Following on from a couple of years of almost micro-dosing and taking days off.

Admiteddly things arent going so well since then. But to use a phrase that I hate so much when other people say it "It is what it is".

 

[Tranced]

So I reiterate again, no sober/clean living.

I did, see above.

Clean and sober living means exactly that, nothing extra. Not even multivitamins. Which I may add, unless you've been told you need additional vitamin(s), then there is no reason to be taking a multivitamin - if you're getting a balanced, well rounded diet.

You've literally nothing to lose by trying to, except better health.

But, you do you.

When you get bollocked off your gp.

(many times)

 

[sadasaulna]

It's all relative.

If I do 5/mg day unprescribed diaz its "abuse" but when when my ex who has more scripts than hollywood has her *long term* 20mg/day is purely medicinal because her GP prescribes. You see how this game works!?

What I know for certain at the moment is which of those two drugs is going to kill me faster. And that is Alcohol. No ifs, no buts. What I also know is the benzos have literally made it possible to

a) CT from Alcohol
b) Do things in my life that wouldn't have been possible otherwise due to crippling social anxiety. I recently took an online social anxiety test and the results were off the chart - it rated me as having "extremely severe social anxiety". And yet I went to a gig for the first time in about 20 years. How? Diazepam. I was too scared to see my dentist. When I did - How? Alprazolam.

So clean sober preachers can go preach somewhere else.

 

[axe battler]

Exercise does very little for my anxiety, unless it's something like hill walking to give views of wide open spaces, which does provide some kind of benefit and perspective for a time. The better the view the better the benefit. But it's only a temporary sticking plaster kind of solution ime, as it doesnt deal with the core issues, and I cant go mountain climbing every day before or after work.

A couple of things that I did find helpful for my anxiety and stress was cutting out coffee and nicotine. I probably got roughly a 25% improvement of symptoms doing that, with about 25% of the anxiety and stress being replaced by calmness. This move also helped a great deal with my problems with falling asleep.

But I still need something for the other 75% that remains untreated, unless I treat it myself.

Antidepressants for anxiety seem extremely hit and miss by most accounts, many people say things like they had to try several different types before they found one that helped them slightly. Lots of people say that none of them even touch the sides. Myself included in that.

It seems to me that the whole class of SSRIs are much of a muchness, with only slight variations between the different types, just as all benzos are broadly similar, with only relatively slight variations in their effects profiles. If one of each does or does not work for you, you're probably going to have similar results from all of them.

It just feels like people with anxiety are being fobbed off with SSRI crap that wont work most of the time. And that also has w/d syndromes just as bad as benzos, by most accounts.

The result of all that being that lots of people turn to the black market for solutions that they know are effective. It's a completely ridiculous state of affairs.

Hey man, do you find modafinil less anxiety inducing than caffeine? I've heard not to mix but my friend likes the odd cuppa. She takes diazepam and trying to cut down, but needs coffee to function. Is modafinil a good replacement? Dose?
Oh and.can she still drink tea or should she switch to caffeine free?
I've used it recently but was up all night. Fell asleep for an hour and was ok but needed an early night.

 

[Bleaney]

These things affect everyone differently, but I've seen several times that coffee is known for increasing anxiety and stress.

Definitely did in my case.

Coffee is addictive, but not extremely so, so a taper down over a week or so should be fine. And your friend could switch to any alternative caffeinted drink (barring energy drinks.)

There's many other caffeinated drinks, apart from the obvious range of teas you can get in British supermarkets, there's teas like Matcha and Yerba Mate which have higher caffeine than the teas on the UK market, but they are generally much smoother and dont tend to produce as much anxiety, jitters, or tremor, as coffee. These are also meant to be very healthy, especially Matcha which is very high in anti-oxidants.

I dont find Modafinil causes much anxiety. It can cause stress though if the dose is too high. Around 100mg is a good dose ime, though tolerance develops rapidly. That kind of dose used to last me 6 hours or more, now I need to re-dose more often and with higher doses.

Coffee plus modafinil tends to be too much ime, but any other caffeinated drinks go OK with it I'd say.

This is just my personal experience obviously I'm not a medical professional or anything like that.

 

[sadasaulna]

Bleaney, have been meaning to ask for an age is your profile pic you, or a pic of some really cool rockstar I don't know? Not kidding.

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

@axe battler I find modafinil less jittery than caffeine if taken in doses to produce simliar stimulation

I'd advise going for a 50mg modafinil dose at first, no re-dose, just see how 50mg affects. I honestly thing less-is-more with this sunstance and that people dose too high due to trying to get a high out of modafinil that just isn't there

My sweet spot with it is 70-80mg which will give me a good 8 hours of focus and mild stimulation.

A couple of mugs of tea through the day with it, no worries. I'd avoid coffee personally

edit - just read Bleany's post abovem looks like we have almost identical modaf thoughts/experiences

 

[Bleaney]

Bleaney, have been meaning to ask for an age is your profile pic you, or a pic of some really cool rockstar I don't know? Not kidding.

It's Jim Reid, from The Jesus and Mary Chain.

 

[sadasaulna]

Ah cool! I was gonna say, if that's you, you're the coolest looking dude I ever met.

 

[sadasaulna]

Just had a triage phone call with alcohol services. They couldn't have been more cool! The woman was really, really nice with me, great advice, loads of options, wasn't pushing me into some horrible 3 month rehab, I can do "inpatient detox" but its not a full rehab, just you'll be somewhere safe for like a week while you do CT and they script you some diazepam or chlordiazepoxide she said. Totally optional.

Didn't bat an eyelid about my diaz use, and even said they'll give me some strips for testing my benzos that will show if they're contaminated with anything like nitazenes. She said was previously on the opoid team so she seemed really knowledgeable, she knew about WEDINOS, about nitazene contamination in the supply chain, and they have their own testing services they can use in house.

Total opposite of when I dealt with them a few years ago when they treat me like I was something the cat dragged in.

Looking forward to working with them now! Onwards and upwards!