Drugs of the Far Future

[indelibleface]

I was reading through an article in a magazine that basically said that, eventually, we'll be able to have drugs that have a very complex method of action on our brains, to the point where we can modify very specific things. The article used the example of having a drug that makes you better at gambling. Is this complete bullshit?

I was thinking the other day (and mind you, I have no pharmacology or chemistry background beyond the basics, so the following may seem incredibly noobish), that proteins can be incredibly complex and can have incredibly complex methods of action on the body. Could an artificial protein-based drug be the wave of the future, basically having a method of action that is specific enough to cause extremely precise changes in brain chemistry without causing the damage that our current recreational drugs cause? It's like instead of using a large hammer to get the job done, you use a precise laser. Maybe you could design a highly complex molecule that could change personality traits, or make people better at certain skills, like analytical thinking, for one?

Of course, it's possible that eventually, nanotechnology will be what this requires. If anyone's read The Singularity Is Near by Ray Kurzweil, he basically predicts that we may one day be able to program nanobots to do basically anything within the body, everything from non-invasive surgery to artificial immune systems to creating "virtual reality" by affecting the sense centers of the brain. We could also possibly program nanobots to cause recreational drug-like effects very precisely with minimal or no harm to the body, and have them self-terminate after a certain amount of time (i.e. they go dormant, and you essentially piss them out). It sounds like a scary idea at first, but I really believe that, if the technology gets that good, they will be incredibly safe to use.

I think the far, far future of "getting high" will eventually land in the world of nanotechnology (like everything else), but in the "less" far future, do you think it'd be possible to design highly complex molecules that have very, very complex properties, like I described? Or does it not work that way? School me if it doesn't, since I'm pretty much a beginner at this stuff.

 

[drklnk]

I've imagined that in the future nootropoics will play a larger role in 'getting high' similar to how you describe proteins, but through alteration of genes themselves. It also makes me think that you could create permanently altered states on consciousness, or precision controlled actions. Think the trip is going bad? You can stop it immediately then and there.
Nanodrugs would be insane, you could take one specimen and it could get you messed up and then also have the ability to deter any neurotoxicity. Like MDMA nanos that replenish serotonin after the high wear off.

 

[indelibleface]

I've imagined that in the future nootropoics will play a larger role in 'getting high' similar to how you describe proteins, but through alteration of genes themselves. It also makes me think that you could create permanently altered states on consciousness, or precision controlled actions. Think the trip is going bad? You can stop it immediately then and there.
Nanodrugs would be insane, you could take one specimen and it could get you messed up and then also have the ability to deter any neurotoxicity. Like MDMA nanos that replenish serotonin after the high wear off.

One step further than that: you could completely deceive your higher reasoning centers into thinking that you're actually rolling on ecstasy, but it's really just feeding direct input into your sense centers. No serotonin used up, no damage to any receptors -- essentially it'd be direct virtual reality on your brain. You'd feel like you're rolling, but it'd be a completely safe mechanism. Not only that, but you could basically roll for as long as you wanted, since we're basically bypassing your neurotransmitters and providing your brain with direct sensual input, and you could terminate the nanobots whenever you felt like. Wild!

 

[indelibleface]

Of course, this form of nanotechnology assumes that we'll eventually be able to understand fully how we process sensual data so we can mimic it. I do believe this isn't beyond our grasp. It's just a question of how long it will take to achieve. When we're able to have technology like this, it'll be the holy grail of recreational drug use. I mean, really, we could have a "designer drug" tailored to each individual. And it'd be perfectly safe, as long as the technology is advanced enough.

 

[haribo1]

How long will it take for such technology to be controlled? That's the sad part. This 'harm' stuff gets old. The powers that be want busy unquestioning bees, not happy people who arn't interested in consumer products because without those urges, where does the money come from?

 

[kidamnesiac]

Seriously, this is at least 100 years off. We are just now figuring out some of the things LSD does and it has been studied for 40+ years.

From:
Charles D. Nichols, Elaine Sanders-Bush (2004)
Molecular genetic responses to lysergic acid diethylamide include transcriptional activation of MAP kinase phosphatase-1, C/EBP-β and ILAD-1, a novel gene with homology to arrestins
Journal of Neurochemistry 90 (3), 576–584.

Abstract:
We recently demonstrated that the potent hallucinogenic drug lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) dynamically influences the expression of a small collection of genes within the mammalian prefrontal cortex. Towards generating a greater understanding of the molecular genetic effects of hallucinogens and how they may relate to alterations in behavior, we have identified and characterized expression patterns of a new collection of three genes increased in expression by acute LSD administration. These genes were identified through additional screens of Affymetrix DNA microarrays and examined in experiments to assess dose–response, time course and the receptor mediating the expression changes. The first induced gene, C/EBP-β, is a transcription factor. The second gene, MKP-1, suggests that LSD activates the MAP (mitogen activated protein) kinase pathway. The third gene, ILAD-1, demonstrates sequence similarity to the arrestins. The increase in expression of each gene was partially mediated through LSD interactions at 5-HT2A (serotonin) receptors. There is evidence of alternative splicing at the ILAD-1 locus. Furthermore, data suggests that various splice isoforms of ILAD-1 respond differently at the transcriptional level to LSD. The genes thus far found to be responsive to LSD are beginning to give a more complete picture of the complex intracellular events initiated by hallucinogens.

The brain is millions of times more complex than we can currently comprehend and people who babble on about the wonders of nanotech are mostly doing it for money.

 

[haribo1]

50 years ago would you have believed people landing on the moon?

 

[drklnk]

Technology and science do seem to move at more that a simple linear pace.

 

[kidamnesiac]

60 years ago the germans were more than capable of putting a rocket into a neighborhood in London from over 1000 miles away.
50 Years ago we had the simplest ICBMs.
Today over 90% of the human proteome is unknown.
There is a LOT of work to be done.
Off topic, I picked up a Newsweek someone had left on my table with an article about exercise and the mind. It mentioned the need for pills that mimic effects of exercise on the brain. Because we, as a society, have become too lazy to generate our own endorphins.
My point is, and pardon my inner hippie coming out, what goes up must come down. That is, I think the idea of a endless MDMA high (Huxley's Soma?) is impossible. The human brain obeys the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology and it would most likely be impossible to circumvent it's natural steady-state and regulating mechanisms.
For instance, look at any serious tweaker.
But yes, science does obey parallel computing-type progression. We will have better drugs and better ability to work at the genomic level of the brain, but the recreational potential is still, and probably will be, in the small molecules. Especially because it is so easy for plants and people to make small molecules. Everything else is a pain in the ass.
On the other hand, I want to order some enkephalins and try some subcutaneous delivery.

 

[indelibleface]

60 years ago the germans were more than capable of putting a rocket into a neighborhood in London from over 1000 miles away.
50 Years ago we had the simplest ICBMs.
Today over 90% of the human proteome is unknown.
There is a LOT of work to be done.
Off topic, I picked up a Newsweek someone had left on my table with an article about exercise and the mind. It mentioned the need for pills that mimic effects of exercise on the brain. Because we, as a society, have become too lazy to generate our own endorphins.
My point is, and pardon my inner hippie coming out, what goes up must come down. That is, I think the idea of a endless MDMA high (Huxley's Soma?) is impossible. The human brain obeys the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology and it would most likely be impossible to circumvent it's natural steady-state and regulating mechanisms.
For instance, look at any serious tweaker.
But yes, science does obey parallel computing-type progression. We will have better drugs and better ability to work at the genomic level of the brain, but the recreational potential is still, and probably will be, in the small molecules. Especially because it is so easy for plants and people to make small molecules. Everything else is a pain in the ass.
On the other hand, I want to order some enkephalins and try some subcutaneous delivery.

What I mean is, our natural chemicals have a specific effect on our system. They generate a signal (electrical signal?) that is transmitted somehow to our sensual centers in our brain, and produce an effect that we sense. Now, say we were able to transmit that signal directly without the use of a neurotransmitter or affecting receptors. Say we were able to interface with our sensual centers directly, and feed them whatever information we choose.

In this case, we'd be able to trick the olfactory center into thinking you're smelling a big vat of chocolate ice cream. We could trick your tactile center into sensing yourself holding a spoon and the sensation of you eating the ice cream. Same would go for the rest of your senses, and voila, you're eating a pretend tub of ice cream. Basically, a series of nanobots programmed to do a specific task in your brain should be able to accomplish this kind of fully immersive virtual reality by substituting the natural signals heading to your sensual centers for its own special programming. It'd be like the holodeck on Star Trek, except all within your head.

Supposing all of this could be possible, you could take that a step further and basically recreate, say, the MDMA experience just by somehow recreating all the sensations that accompany the high. Essentially, you aren't really rolling, but you're tricking your brain into thinking it is. Think about it -- you've probably had dreams in which you've ingested a drug. It feels like you're on the drug completely, but there's no comedown, no after-effects, no damage, since it's "all in your mind", and you wake up in the morning. You've taken no drug, but you felt the effects, because your sensual centers were tricked by whatever mechanism causes dreaming. Tap into that, and there's your perfect drug. If you can dream it, you can experience it without going through the normal mechanisms. In this way, you could indeed experience an MDMA high, or any sensation you can possibly imagine, that could last forever if you wanted it to. Not that I'd want it to, but it'd be nice to roll a bit longer than four-ish hours, and of course without a killer comedown.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ Find the film 'Brainstorm' and give it a watch...

 

[haribo1]

I've had dreams of tripping and so on, but of course I've tripped. So it's memory->prefrontal cortex happening there. Now, you would still need to experience the experience (wow, what a vocabulary) and a GOOD one. Then figure out where the memory was stored, then seperate the feelings from the total immersion aspect (so you can do what you want ON the drug) then figure out how to, on command, get those filtered memories through the brains filters into the prefrontal cortex...

It DOES sound an awful lot of work....

 

[indelibleface]

I've had dreams of tripping and so on, but of course I've tripped. So it's memory->prefrontal cortex happening there. Now, you would still need to experience the experience (wow, what a vocabulary) and a GOOD one. Then figure out where the memory was stored, then seperate the feelings from the total immersion aspect (so you can do what you want ON the drug) then figure out how to, on command, get those filtered memories through the brains filters into the prefrontal cortex...

It DOES sound an awful lot of work....

It doesn't have to work through memory. We would just need to understand the mechanism behind the feeling of the MDMA high, an acid trip, a walk on the beach, whatever. Then you just need to transmit those signals to the correct area of the brain. If we can decode how dreams work, it would definitely help us to understand how to create a virtual reality within our heads, but I don't think we would have to do anything with the memory centers of the brain to accomplish this.

We're dealing simply with the sensual centers. They have to receive input somehow from the rest of your body. And, during dreams, they're receiving some kind of "fake" input gathered from, yes, your memory. But, there's no reason why you couldn't transmit a signal to your sensual centers directly, bypassing your memory. I'm no theoretical brain researcher, but logically, your sensual centers process information from somewhere, and if we learn how to decode that information, we could send them data directly.

 

[indelibleface]

I agree that this stuff sounds way far off in terms of feasibility, but it might be possible much sooner than we think. Due to the nature of the way technology is advancing (it's not a linear progression, it's exponential), we can't even fathom the kind of stuff we'll be able to achieve in forty years, let alone a hundred. Between now and forty years from now, our technology level will skyrocket much, much faster than in the period of time between forty years ago and today.

 

[kidamnesiac]

I guess the most significant difference is that a joe-beans in his bathroom can't make nanobots. therefore, the recreational potential is minimal because there is not a lot of funding to be going into mimicking the effects of an illicit drug via nanotech.

 

[haribo1]

They have already got little motors and stuff working on a nano-scale, but I wonder just how it would be made to work to get you high. I guess you could put in a serotonin/gaba agonist/endorphin releaser or stop the reuptake...

 

[MattPsy]

I guess the most significant difference is that a joe-beans in his bathroom can't make nanobots. therefore, the recreational potential is minimal because there is not a lot of funding to be going into mimicking the effects of an illicit drug via nanotech.

Until nanobots that can make other nanobots to order become avaliable .
(But then, we'll probably be fucked anyway, because they'll be used as weapons, and the world shall be overrun with the Gray Goo (tm) .

 

[haribo1]

Yes, weapons seems to be the chosen sphere. Imagine a gaba antagonist! Not fatal (well, maybe) but you would not function. An acetyl chloline antagonist would be like nerve gas except you could control just how much antagonism it produced and for how long so you could keep someone near death for weeks...
All nasty stuff.

 

[indelibleface]

Yes, weapons seems to be the chosen sphere. Imagine a gaba antagonist! Not fatal (well, maybe) but you would not function. An acetyl chloline antagonist would be like nerve gas except you could control just how much antagonism it produced and for how long so you could keep someone near death for weeks...
All nasty stuff.

It's stuff like this that will make it necessary for nearly everyone eventually to have some sort of artificial nanobot-based immune system. Basically, a software firewall or antivirus program for your own body, programmed with all the latest updates. It would end the scourge of natural pathogens, everything from strep throat to antiviral-resistant Ebola, and it would also (hopefully) protect humans against unwanted nanobot attacks. As long as, of course, you keep updating your "virus definitions" regularly. :D

Edit: whoops, Ebola is a virus, so it would be "antiviral", not "antibiotic", technically

 

[theWorldWithin]

Its cool to think about but I doubt any govt. will ever allow nano technology to be used for recreational drug highs. We don't tolerate it now and doubtfull that it will change.

For example: methadone, a highly potent opoid with a long half life. Cheap and relatively easy to produce with legit equipment. There would be no issue suplling methadone to anyone who would like to be addicted to opiates right now. Yet we disallow it because its obviously a bad choice to allow entire segments of society to be high all the time.