Drug sentencing vs. Other Crimes

[drug_mentor]

^ Funny you are correct. I guess I was a tad slammed and them comments last night slightly irrelevant. Its just both amusing and shocking to me how many atrocities Western society can ignore out of pure convenience/economic factors yet we will use the same moral basis to demonise criminals? I honestly believe that if we knew the total suffering in the world caused by legitimate business that it would pale in comparison to the unwaranted suffering inflicted upon some of the pawns of the drug game.

 

[Busty St Clare]

The fact of the matter is that most people in source countries are happy as larry to produce drugs because if they didn't produce drugs they would be worse off, I almost question how many more Colombian or Afghan farmers would of starved to death if they had never implemented our ridiculous drug laws. Coercion does happen but to me it makes no sense to blame the majority of people involved in drugs who aren't using violence on others for creating some of the horrible situations that came about due to the current laws.

I don't really see how it is less moral of someone to continue operating in the drug trade, knowing to some extent they are financially supporting and/or gaining from some of the negatives created by it, than it is for someone like Mushi (I hope you don't feel singled out, I don't actually take issue with what you said I just see a double standard) to talk about exploiting cheap Asian labour for the sake of the prosperity of a legal business?

I agree, unless you are living in a self sufficient existence it is near impossible to be more than 6 degrees of separation from some form of exploitation. Reality is without these jobs a lot of families would have o other way to support themselves. We would all like to think that children should have childhoods but in many communities there are no schools, there are no play grounds, it is accepted that when you reach a particular age you are expected to work for your family, something that has gone on for hundreds of years. Perhaps drug cartels could set up schools, provide medical care, paid holiday leave or any number of perks the West takes for granted but the truth is a few dollars a day makes a bigger difference to their lives than a few dollars does to us. It could be argued a child picking coca leaves in a jungle village setting has a far better life than the child at the end of the drug chain living in an addicts house in Melbourne despite running water, electricity and access to doctors and an education.

 

[SoWhat!]

I have nothing but Good things to say about drug crime sentencing when the crimes are small, like possession of a couple ounces of weed, small scale growing or a couple dozen pills for example. Regarding these sorts of crimes our legal system has far less harsh penalties than most other places. Infact I feel blessed to have grown up here, In a place where cops and our legal justice system in general will always treat you right if they find you to be a good bloke and not just some scumbag.

like watch a couple episodes of Cops for some laughs man

You feel blessed that the government can impinge on our civil liberties as adults and tell us what substances we can and can't consume? I love Australia, however i ask myself how long is it going to take before people realise that the majority of drug users are harmless, but that the war on drugs is so unsuccesful im beginning to think its just a media stunt.

I don't know about any of you, but every bust they announce they claim that they've significantly disrupted supply. I've never noticed this happen. The reason the war goes on is because the $XXXX i pay for a pound of weed is money that the government has no control over, no ability to tax. Add to that the drugs themselves make the majority of users realise that the current political climate is a joke and that radical reform of current government is required.

In saying that, despite the law i'll consume whatever substance i want. If i take drugs and don't impinge on the rights and freedoms of others, then there is really no argument for the war on drugs. I have a drug conviction. Is it a deterrent? Absolutely not as i believe the substance in question is extremely beneficial and has been shown as such in studies by qualified researches. Somehow this research doesn't get into the heads of idiots like Gillard and Pyne.

 

[spacejunk]

^ even if it does get into the heads of our elected representatives (the research or the drugs themselves!) they are so restricted by the whole system (law enforcement, conservative media, lobby groups) that any mention of liberalising drug laws - or taking a more reasoned approach - is condemned as "soft on drugs"
i agree that it is fucking sad how many people buy that line. even drug users. especially drug users!

i think we all need to work together to change public perception. where appropriate, let people know how you feel.
it's hypocrisy, right? we can all agree that the contradictions in the "war on drugs" (specifically in relation to alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceuticals) render it useless and offensive, so lets stop being so meek about it.
we usually keep our mouths shut because we've been taught to.
if we say "actually, i think the only sane option is to legalise and regulate drugs" we think that we'll be judged a junkie by our family, friends and/or co-workers.
this internal censorship (imposed externally with very effective propaganda) is something you and i have control over.
we need to stand by our convictions, spread the word and change the way the general public think about this. the mainstream media aren't going to do it. our "leaders" sure as hell won't do it (too politically risky) but increasingly we are all able to have our say and spread our beliefs to a larger audience than ever. the mainstream press is losing its monopoly on the messages put out there - we need to grab hold of that.
as soon as the people start questioning this bullshit, saying "enough of victimising the victims" it will be possible for some populist politician to use the public sentiment for their own gain. this is cynical, but it is how "democracy" (ahem, whatever the fuck that means any more) is meant to work. but until we change people's minds, we won't get anywhere - just more prudish "just say no" bullshit.
talk to your friends, talk to your family, talk to your online networks, your social circle, your drug contacts, your fucking kid's soccer coach. spread the word - the war on drugs is over (if you want it).

 

[SoWhat!]

our "leaders" sure as hell won't do it (too politically risky) but increasingly we are all able to have our say and spread our beliefs to a larger audience than ever..

Is it really that politically risky? Maybe amongst the parties themselves but if someone in power stood up and took a mature view on the matter i think they'd gain massive support throughout the country. They need to have plastered on the wall "EVERYONE TAKES DRUGS". Despite the legal status, does it stop people using? Absolutely not!

The stereotypical drug user is changing, its not just dole bludgers anymore, its professionals, high earners and important voters. We vote for a Government that wastes millions on arresting harmless drug users yet that money could be spent on education and healthcare for people facing a dependancy. Locking someone up for 10 Ecstasy pills solves absolutely nothing. Its so blatantly obvious im simply stunned how the Government continues this pathetic fight.

Add to that the abolishment of the majority of organised crime, no multi-billion dollar drug trademeans a significant blow to their means of income.

Terrence Mckenna sums it up beautifully, not just psychedelics but all drugs that open the mind:

"Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window, psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong, and government and society spend a lot of money educating you into being a loyal worker, consumer, debt payer and citizen." - Terence McKenna

 

[spacejunk]

Is it really that politically risky? Maybe amongst the parties themselves but if someone in power stood up and took a mature view on the matter i think they'd gain massive support throughout the country. They need to have plastered on the wall "EVERYONE TAKES DRUGS". Despite the legal status, does it stop people using? Absolutely not!

The stereotypical drug user is changing, its not just dole bludgers anymore, its professionals, high earners and important voters. We vote for a Government that wastes millions on arresting harmless drug users yet that money could be spent on education and healthcare for people facing a dependancy. Locking someone up for 10 Ecstasy pills solves absolutely nothing. Its so blatantly obvious im simply stunned how the Government continues this pathetic fight.

i think it's politically risky in the sense that if someone with vision actually stands up and questions this insane policy, they'll be crucified by the media. they'll be slagged off by the church, by sporting figures, by all the usual suspects of the status quo.
they'll face pressure from the united states and other international forces, threats of various forms and the risk of exclusion. i think the politics of it is pretty complicated and the threat is multi-faceted. sure, i don't know many people that are in favour of prohibition, but i don't know the people with all the power. not personally, anyway.

i agree that we have an increasing amount of functioning drug users in the population - people who use, dabble, or at least did in their past - who defy the stereotypes and lead successful, healthy, happy lives. it is these people that defy all the propaganda.
yet so many of them are still sucked into the old chestnut of drug-fear.

we are so manipulated into fearing social change and progression, that people honestly believe that the current system is better.
sure, heaps of people take drugs, regardless of how illegal they are.
they risk their health/lives in not knowing the what the substance really is that they are taking, how pure it is, or whether it has been properly synthesised. they risk legal implications for possession, and they are forced to buy from people who are criminally selling/manufacturing/smuggling/cultivating these drugs. these "criminals" are made very wealthy and powerful because of this.

people have been hoodwinked into thinking that this situation is better than any of the alternatives (even if they use drugs themselves) because they've bought into the myth that "i can handle it, but other people aren't as smart/responsible/mature"

while public perception is only part of what needs to change in order for the drug war to be dismantled, it is a crucial first step, and it is within our reach. at the moment, it is still political suicide. a case in point is that only a few years ago, the Australian Greens supported a system of legalisation/decriminalisation similar to that of portugal.

this policy is now nowhere to be seen - it has been sanitised, after much criticism from the corporate media...and this is amongst greens voters. it is still a hot issue that politicians don't want to be associated with. if you stick your neck out, you'll be the subject of bullshit campaigns and dirty smears.
we can't change the media, we can't change the fundamentalist USA's international meddling, and we can't change the fucking church, but once we shift popular opinion, we have the foundations to start changing the other stuff. when the people say 'enough is enough', eventually it falls to some 'visionary' to act on this sentiment.

if a 'liberalisation of drugs' platform became a popular thing for politicians to pursue, we would be taking our first step, rather than floundering in the current slump backwards (with states such as WA and VIC banning cannabis smoking implements). it is time we broke our silence, ignored our fears and smashed some stereotypes.

i've lifted large chunks of this rant from david marr's article promoting his new book that was posted on bluelight the other day. i don't know if you've seen it but it is certainly worth a read.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/600412-NEWS-The-great-debate-that-no-one-s-talking-about

i sincerely believe that if we all start talking in our small spheres of interaction - saying "i believe we need to change" than we can start the process of moving forward. we are living in a new age of communications - never before has one person's word been able to reach so many, without being a professional journalist, writer or political figure. it can be done.
it is hard to feel anything but defeating when you're up against the press and the institutions and the propaganda machine - but we have truth, we have honesty, we have integrity and that is some powerful shit.

 

[Busty St Clare]

The main problem with "professionals, high earners and important voters" is even with legalisation there are plenty of reasons not to have their drug use out in the open. These groups of people also have compulsory private health insurance, usually have income protection insurance, life insurance policies to provide for their families or belong to professional organisations such a the AMA or Pilots Association. Any one of these organisations would be more than happy to penalise drug use, even if it was legal. Have any of you tried to get car insurance after a drink driving conviction or a string of speeding fines or life insurance if you are a sky diver? Insurance companies in particular assess risk, legal or not, and will increase premiums accordingly. Some will simply refuse to cover drug users.

If drugs are legalised it is extremely unlikely they will be sold over the counter at the corner store. There would be regulation, at the very least you would have to show identification to purchase scheduled medications. You could argue that it should be illegal to discriminate but they already do to people whose houses are in flood zones or who own highly desirable cars. Most professionals are hardly going to sign up as a drug user if they are going to be stung with thousands of dollars or further risk their livelihoods. A black market will still exist to supply these people regardless of legalisation, so what benefit is it for these people to campaign for legalisation?

Plenty of these people indulge on a weekly basis with no hassles from police. Why? Because they don't do stupid shit like heading to festivals with pockets of drugs when they know there will be police dogs. They don't frequent night club areas and choose to drive home. They don't get into fights or drive unregistered cars. Believe it or not that most people in society are able to fly under the radar without any problems so you will have to convince these people if you desire any chance of change.

 

[spacejunk]

for once i agree with you, busty.
i think though, that advocating liberalisation of drugs laws and being a drug user are different things. i mean, it would be nice if society made moves on what was right and what was just rather than whether or not 'important' people can personally benefit from it or not. decreasing the influence of organised crime is a good thing for society generally, but i suppose the status quo is the status quo, regardless of what part of it you fit in to.
but i think you make a good point.

 

[SoWhat!]

The government should fear the people, not the other way around. We need a politician who is willing to become a castaway due to their soft views on drugs. Even if they were expelled, i suspect millions of people would support the cause and give the politician a voice. The problem is the large majority of society are sheep, who despite their own views comply anyway. I will smoke a joint walking down the street and walk past cops without batting an eyelid. If im stopped i simply say im smoking Marijuana and that i personally dont declare it illegal. As expected i have to dick it, so to show that i oppose the legality of pot i immediately pulled a pre-rolled trumpet out of my coat pocket and blazed it. The cops made their way back towards me but were stopped when 2 drunk blokes started a brawl right next to us. It was bitter sweet, me smoking an illegal substance completely content watching two people punch on after being legally intoxicated by Alcohol, probably the most harmful drug to the body. I took another hit of my doobie, smiled at the two cops who were dealing with the drunk morons and off i went.

The Government's response to talks of lenient drug laws force them to spread propaganda and absurd scare campaigns. If MDMA, Cannabis and Ice were that bad, why would people consume them in vast quantities. Apparently, according to the Gov't LSD causes panic attacks and an intense state of fear. Say im wrong but LSD for me is full of beautiful sensory enhancements and a feeling of inner peace....and this is illegal! Same with MDMA, dehydration, heat exhaustion, unknown contents within the pill. Firstly the latter is solely due to the Gov't banning pill testing at venues, and im sorry but MDMA for me causes unique feelings of wellbeing, feelings of contentment and an ability to bond with others like i couldn't do if i was sober. Why would people risk prosecution in buying and consuming a drug that the Gov't tells us has nothing but negative side effects? It boggles my mind. A friend who was done with 5g of MDMA found out the arresting officer was later charged with trafficking. In the interview when asked if he had a licence to import the 5g, he responded by saying that not only should a licence not be required, but it should be available for anyone to experience (the detectives weren't impressed) and why would they be, they're losing a battle so vast that in 20 years people will be buying a bag of pills for a social BBQ instead of 6 beers.

These anti-drug politicians are supposed to represent the people, not take away civil liberties in the belief that they're protecting the community,i just can't fathom how a bunch of morons in suits can over ride medical research into a drug like MDMA saying the Neurotoxicity is neglible. An MP by the name of Christopher Pyne went as far as saying that over 50% of Ecstasy pills has rat poison in it. Now correct me if im wrong, but which dealer wants their customers dead? Something is drastically wrong when a Master in the field of Drug research and addiction is over ridden by a Governing party for no plausible reason. I guess they're afraid of people opening their eyes and realising everything they've been told is a lie, and the Government works hard to keep us all in place, paying our taxes.

On that note, im gonna go smoke a joint and enjoy every puff knowing that the Authorities spend millions in stopping someone like me smoking a psychoactive plant, not caring for one second that im breaking the law. The law applies to those who don't want the people to gain momentum and force change, laws need to keep us in order, and they're failing at an astronomical rate.

Sorry for the rant but its a touchy subject for me.

 

[losthippy]

I was around in the early 70's when JJ McRoach and the Australian Marijuana Party polled as the nation's 4th most popular political party. From memory there were a few well-established parties left well behind when the dust settled. JJ was called a lot of things by a lot of people but the bloke had charisma and pushed the pot agenda into every household. He was the public face we don't seem to have three decades on to fight the good fight. It's a big ask.

 

[Maniaz]

Well if you're dealing meth ( street dealing and shit ) think about the damage that that person is doing to the people who he/she is selling to? think about the damage to the community? some of the people may have to resort to crime to get the money ( which is a result of the addiction ) . think about the way hard drugs can destroy people and the people around them. im not saying this is for all people but for a lot of addicts iv seen. i know this can be applied for alcohol and cigarettes as well but there isnt much we can do about it . im only applying this though to 'hard' drug dealers

inb4 i dont support the shitty war on drugs

 

[Africanus]

Footscrazy and Mr Blond: Sorry I'm not very good at explaining myself sometimes. I mean it's the sick fuckers who watch, make and distribute that disgusting material. Of course those kids are getting abused have no say. I agree 100% People involved in child porn are satisfying their desires through the exploitation of kids. As I said I'm not good at explaining myself. Those sick fuckers that watch that shit honestly believe they are doing nothing wrong. Some sex offenders actually try and justify themselves.

Mr Blond: I totally disagree with your comment Quote 'People who buy drugs know they are taking part in a crime, but the only person whose suffering they are supporting are themselves.'

Sorry mate I respectfully disagree. When looking at the big picture there are so many people effected by drugs, not just the consumer. Do you think the poor peasant in Columbia/Bolivia enjoys picking Coca leaves for some cartel who have threatened to kill his children if he does anything else? Do you thing the poor Vietnamese farmer who needs money so badly they agree to smuggle a couple of Kg's of Heroin into Australia? Or that Australian / Vietnamese kid who got hung in Singapore for smuggling Heroin to pay off a gambling debt to drug dealers. What about the poor addict (and I say poor addict, because I genuinely believe they have a sickness) who breaks into someones home or robs some pharmacy worker who now suffers anxiety from when someone held a knife to their throat.

The user may be the only person 'committing the crime' at the time. But think of all the possible people who have been exploited manufacturing that drug, bringing the drug into Australia and how they got their money to buy the drugs.

Sentencing 'big' drug dealers I can't see an issue with. I agree maybe all rape, child abuser, violent offences also need to have there sentences increased.

For christ sake everyone stay safe out there. Don't come into possession of that much drugs that if you get caught you will go to prison. Don't be that person who agrees to buy the gear for everyone before new years in bulk to save cash. If you are the one who gets caught with that 1/2 oz of gear and 30 pills (for example). Well I have some news for you. You will go to prison. Your life goes on hold and you sit there wasting away some years of this short fantastic life. Forever wondering what your missing out on outside. Prison is the last place you want to be. No Freedom = No life.

Work hard/play hard but play safe.

If you saw child porn, looked at it, not for sexual purposes, would you be doing something wrong?

I would say no.
You cant do something wrong by merely looking at something.

So what about if you enjoy looking at that child porn, just because you had a different state of mind while looking at something, how would that make it wrong?

So what actually do viewers of child porn do wrong.

Well nothing, unless they purchase it or otherwise create demand for it.

If its already there, and their viewing wont make a difference to its continued production, then surely looking at a few glowing pixels on a screen cant be wrong just because of the patterns those pixels make, regardless of our state of mind.

In fact its illegal to even DRAW a picture, of child porn, no real child involved.
_______

Criminalisation of drug use possession and dealing, is illegitamate law.
Just because something is law, doesnt mean its a good law, or a legitimate use of power by the state over the individual.
Only where our actions harm another is the state justified in usings its position of power to force our compliance through law.

Regardless of laws, we all have rights, that bad laws cannot take away from us.
The right to self determination as long as we do no harm to others.
Any law that contradicts this right, is invalid, illegitimate, a bad law.

Drug users definately should not go to jail.