Drug-Free Ego Loss. Looking For Feedback.

[Qwick]

Sorry this is so long. Bear with me.

I recently went through a few experiences during the last few days that resulted in substantial ego loss. Or what I would call substantial. From what I've read on here it could've been a lot crazier. But for me the total experience was extremely terrifying and the thoughts are still lingering in my head to some degree.

I realize that people tend to exaggerate, or misuse the term ego loss, but I know it's what happened to me. When it happens, you really do know it.

The disintegration of my identity and sense of self was not an enjoyable experience. The feeling of revelation was rather painful. There were positive feelings afterward, but the experience was not fun. And it happened more than once over the last few days. I believe I could induce it again if I started thinking about it but I'm not going to do that.

What I should mention about this is that I was not under the influence of any drugs at the time. This experience was not related to any drug use or even meditation. It resulted purely from thinking essentially, albeit very deep, ceaseless thinking over about a week. That may be why it hurt like it did. Also, I wasn't prepared for it since it happened spontaneously from me examining certain things. As you might expect I'm not someone with rigid belief systems or anything like that. But still it was very scary for me to feel that way. It felt like I was dying inside.

I've tripped a handful of times but I never took very much. Those experiences were enjoyable and not problematic. Also, I haven't tripped in several years and I don't use drugs regularly. I have no history of mental illness or anything like that by the way.

I guess I wanted to ask some questions to people who do a lot of psychedelics and have experienced this, perhaps to even more extreme levels than I did. I do imagine that having it happen on drugs is a lot different from having it happen organically.

Here's a few questions. By the way, I appreciate responses from people who have experienced the real thing because it's a very unique experience and it's obvious when the person you perceive yourself as crumbles into the environment.

1) Do you think there are people in the world that go through this experience and erase their ego permanently and continue to live their life? From what I've experienced it seems like this would lead to suicide or serious mental illness. It's a terrifying prospect in my opinion.

2) Is it wise to continue to pursue the trains of thought that led me to that place? I sort of always knew about our shared consciousness, but I never thought about it much. And I also kind of knew that exploring in that direction wasn't necessary.

3) Does anyone have a friend, or acquaintance, who tries to explore these things? And have they ended up insane or extremely dysfunctional? I don't intend to go further with this, but I'm just wondering.

4) Has anyone had this happen without using drugs?

Sorry some of these questions are kind of rhetorical but it was a very strange experience and I guess I'm just looking for some kind of feedback or something. I have more respect for people who use psychedelics now than I did before. Knowing that at least some of what they're seeing is actually real.

Digging under the hood of reality can be compelling (or very scary). But I don't feel like it's something I'm required to see. I think I can live just fine without exploring that.

Thanks in advance for any feedback. It helps to read stories about people who have had the same thing happen. Seeing the true nature of reality, even a brief glimpse, is a mindfuck beyond imagination. I'm just glad my brain is able to snap back after something like that. Hopefully I can slowly ease back into the way things were before. I don't need them to be exactly the same. But that experience was a lot to handle.

 

[Jesusgreen]

Ego loss is much more than a loss of personal sense of identity. I don't see it as "you lose yourself", but rather, you find your true self, the self that all of us share beneath this all. Just my 2 cents.

What you experienced sounds more like derealization or depersonalisation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization

That said, ego loss without drugs is possible, but your experience sounds exactly like my experience of derealization/depersonalisation, and nothing at all like ego loss.

Also although ego loss is common with psychedelics, I think this should really be in the Philosophy and Spirituality forum.

 

[Qwick]

Hm. I just figured people here have experienced it more. It could be derealization. But I kind of doubt it...

I don't think derealization is as traumatic really. And it seems like it happens to people who aren't delving into the things I was. I mean, what happened to me was something I brought on myself by examining certain aspects of our reality. There's no way I could've gotten to that point without forcing myself into some scary places.

I've never experienced derealization so I can't say for sure.

But feeling like I was seeing reality for what it truly is combined with the disintegration of my individuality, leaking into some kind of singularity is what I felt. Like I was losing myself.

Also, derealization is watching yourself act? That didn't happen. I didn't feel like I was far from my body or anything like that.

I mean I can handle this. But it's a life changing type of experience. I'm sure I'll go back to normal to an extent, but this is not something one does flippantly for fun. That's for sure. It was very terrifying for me.

 

[whynaught]

your experience sounds superficial and nothing like ego loss. Maybe you could elaborate on what aspects of reality you are examining so fully? Was it some kind of break through in string theory? Maybe you're examining your OWN consciousness and have made assumptions on the ego and singularity coupled with an anxiety problem that's making you worry about some impending doom of not being normal again or a disintegrating image of yourself. "Anxiety is a thin stream of fear trickling through the mind. If encouraged, it cuts a channel into which all other thoughts are drained." Arthur Somers Roche.

 

[Qwick]

Heh. I'm not actually worried about any impending doom as you say. The fear was what I experienced when it actually happened. You could certainly be right though about it all being in my head. No doubt that's possible.

 

[Jesusgreen]

Hm. I just figured people here have experienced it more. It could be derealization. But I kind of doubt it...

I don't think derealization is as traumatic really. And it seems like it happens to people who aren't delving into the things I was. I mean, what happened to me was something I brought on myself by examining certain aspects of our reality. There's no way I could've gotten to that point without forcing myself into some scary places.

I've never experienced derealization so I can't say for sure.

But feeling like I was seeing reality for what it truly is combined with the disintegration of my individuality, leaking into some kind of singularity is what I felt. Like I was losing myself.

Also, derealization is watching yourself act? That didn't happen. I didn't feel like I was far from my body or anything like that.

I mean I can handle this. But it's a life changing type of experience. I'm sure I'll go back to normal to an extent, but this is not something one does flippantly for fun. That's for sure. It was very terrifying for me.

Derealization is VERY traumatic. When I experienced it I really considered getting myself locked up in a mental institute, not fun, not fun at all. Probably the worst couple of weeks of my life. I really thought I'd lost "myself" and just generally felt messed up and mentally distraught. Nothing seemed quite right about me, and I really thought I had gone insane or something.

Depersonalisation is watching yourself act, but not necessarily from an "out of body" perspective. It feels more like when you're playing a video game and you get one of those ingame movies where your character moves without your control - it's like everything in front of your eyes is a movie with taste touch and smell added in, but you're not controlling it. It also doesn't happen constantly, but usually in short bursts.

 

[jaurk]

I've had mild 3 days Depersonalization/Derealization attacks, and fucking STRONG 5 minute ones.
The 5 minutes ones are so overwhelming I can't move my body, and I become completely disconnected and do not recognise myself to the body I was in.

Whereas the long ones are just like walking through a dream world, not knowing if you're their, or if any of your actions will create an effect in that world..
I always find myself staring at someone, not knowing if they can see me or not :s

Anyways, I just felt like babbling some sheith

 

[Qwick]

Another long post, sorry. But this topic is interesting. Especially when it happens to you.

It's kind of unclear how derealization differs from so-called "ego death." These terms are pretty hard to nail down. I guess "ego death" is supposedly more extreme, and more likely to be positive. I've read that they could both be related to the part of the brain dealing with anxiety, whether you're on psychedelics or not. Also, it's not surprising that the pleasurable experiences like this that people report tend to occur on drugs. You don't often read about anxiety-induced derealization that's a fun experience. Also, a lot of people say that when derealization lingers after a trip it's not enjoyable. I'd probably understand this a bit better if I had tripped more lol. There might be something in the brain that changes it from being a positive experience to a negative one, I don't know. As someone who meditates (although I haven't recently), I could see a much more tolerable and realistic (if that makes any sense) form of this happening that wouldn't be scary in the least.

In retrospect, even though the short-term experience of this was really awful, the lingering effects aren't anywhere near as bad as some people report. What happened to me is more along the lines of a really strong 5 minute experience, rather than a 3 day mild one.

From what I've researched, it definitely seems like all of this just occurs along the same continuum. Derealization / depersonalization / "ego death or loss" are all just varying degrees or versions of the same mechanism in the brain.

So it's not so much that I didn't experience ego loss, it's just that I experienced it off drugs and it was like a mutated version of what people get while tripping, just my opinion.

Another thing is that my anxiety level dropped heavily after these experiences. I mean it dropped to a level that was really abnormal. And I've read a lot about how this can be related to anxiety, on and off drugs, as I said. But I can validate that part because my anxiety really did drop a ton after these experiences. But now the anxiety is back to "normal." Also, I can see how if I spent the day knowing I was going to trip and was prepared for it, this experience would feel a lot different. Tripping feels good, what I experienced was nothing close to good.

You also hear about people with like bad depression who go through some awful episode, experience painful derealization, and then are somehow "reborn" afterwards. I can see this happening because after the experience you really do feel a sort of high following the event. For some people this could be the catalyst to make some major change in their life.

I can see how certain thought patterns I've been working with led me to this result. And if I wanted to I could definitely bring on obsessive thoughts again that would make me have another one of those experiences. It seems like the more you feed it, the longer the lingering feelings will take to go away though.

Ultimately, I think you're right that what I experienced was derealization without depersonalization. However, I think derealization is the same thing as ego loss it's just they occur to varying degrees under different circumstances which makes them seem very different.

In the end I have to remember that the brain is a crazy instrument capable of producing bizarre states of consciousness. And that you shouldn't believe everything your brain shows you.

 

[Jesusgreen]

Actually my derealization was personally caused by strong Cannabis, and still wasn't a pleasant experience. I think in general it is never a pleasant experience as it can truly feel like you've broken something in your head and you're never going to return to normal.

Having had a 2 week long experience with it, and having experienced ego loss several times (both with and without drugs) I tend towards the theory that they are two very different things, and that derealization is always unpleasant, and ego loss is always pleasant. However ego dissolution, which comes on the way to ego loss, can be quite unpleasant, as the ego tends to "fight back" before letting go completely, and the fight can be very unpleasant, you can feel like you're dying, losing everything, and like you'll never be able to communicate or be a part of society again. After that transition, ego loss has always been complete utter bliss for me, like no other, all of my ego loss experiences were the very happiest moments of my life so far.

I think maybe then we could argue that there is ego dissolution involved in derealization/depersonalisation. I'm curious, did you experience any memory loss during the experience? I believe that's associated with depersonalisation rather than derealization, but I had that big time, completely forgot my entire life and had to remember it bit by bit over the coming weeks, very traumatic, but my memories actually felt fresher when they returned, so there were two sides to the coin.

That said, I'm no doctor, and I could be completely wrong about my "diagnosis", I mainly offered it because I've had a lot of my friends experience the same thing (I think it's more common in drug users for obvious reasons) and I shared my experiences and eventually found out many of them had undergone the same thing. I don't think derealization is really linked to ego loss at all, depersonalisation maybe to ego dissolution though I've never seen anyone experience true ego loss with it - but it's entirely possible that you actually experienced both somewhat, or that you're right and depersonalisation can lead to ego loss when severe. It would make sense, and as for why it wasn't enjoyable, that could be explained by the duration. It's your description of feeling like you were dying that leads me to believe you didn't quite get there, as that generally continues for a while (very unpleasant), and then you die, and you awaken in utter bliss, contentedness, and oneness with all.

 

[Qwick]

Thankfully, it seems like my experience could have been a lot worse. I don't have any memory loss but I can see how going deeper into it would result in that. Ego dissolution could be related but I don't know. I've experienced a lessening of the ego on mushrooms I guess but nothing too extreme. And it was very positive. But it seems like with ego dissolution you can sort of tolerate it as long as you know not to fight it or know that your self is still going to be intact.

What I experienced... no amount of letting go or surrendering would've made the situation better I don't think. It's too extreme and grating. You just feel like something breaks inside you. I agree, I don't think derealization can be positive. On the other hand, with ego dissolution how you react probably has a lot to do with how it makes you feel.

Your definitions seem pretty accurate. From what I've experienced with meditation, those states seem a lot closer to what ego loss would actually feel like if I had to guess. And that's a lot different from derealization.

Also, there's a feeling of going crazy with derealization that really messes with your perception of reality. It feels closer to psychosis than any sort of enlightening experience. Even though when you're inside it your perception is crooked enough that you can't really see that, which is pretty scary in retrospect. I imagine people with schizophrenia experience something along these lines.

The reason I felt really good immediately after the experience was probably because when you go through something like that you're really happy when it's over. And your perception gets altered enough that it produces a weird brief sort of high.

Despite being pretty sure this was ego loss in my original post (lol) it seems it's more like derealization. I get the feeling with ego loss, and even ego dissolution, that there's a feeling that everything is going to be alright as long as you're open to the experience. I didn't feel that at all. And it's not so much that I felt like I was dying, more like my grip on reality and my identity was dying. It's that feeling of something breaking inside your head, that you're going to lose touch with reality forever basically.

Luckily I don't have any history of mental illness really (besides anxiety of course, which is what led to this) and I don't have any family members with schizophrenia. Honestly, I would've been open to the experience of ego loss if that's what this was. But it was pretty clear that no amount of acceptance would have made it tolerable. Because like I said, I think it's a lot closer to psychosis, which I haven't experienced, but I'm pretty sure isn't fun.

After consideration, I think derealization / ego loss are two different things, but it's easy to get them confused. Derealization is like a disconnect from reality. It's more like "going crazy" and losing touch. Ego loss is more of an enlightening experience. And you can return to your day to day life without dysfunction, and likely your life will be much better. I haven't experienced ego loss but I assume that's how it is.

Another thing is that I don't think anyone with schizophrenia is able to transcend the illness simply by accepting what's happening to them. The acute experience of derealization isn't really something you accept or not. It's just bad, period.

After doing some reading, in my (reformed) opinion, true ego loss and derealization are like night and day. It's like bliss versus psychosis. Opposite ends of the spectrum. It's scary stuff though. People should probably be careful with the idea that they "didn't go far enough" or that they should attempt to induce derealization in order to experience ego loss. Because all you might end up experiencing is psychosis or more extreme derealization.

In my opinion, in general, if you're trying to experience ego loss without drugs or meditation chances are you're going down a dangerous path. Not that derealization isn't a valuable learning experience, but it's not something anyone should ever want to have happen.

And for some kinds of people, like me, it's easy for derealization to get wrapped up in existential thoughts which can make it a lot worse and put you on the path to losing touch with reality.

Anyways, this is a long post but maybe someone will find it useful when searching for information on this topic in the future. Thanks for the feedback so far by the way. :D

 

[Jesusgreen]

I'm not so sure about aiming to induce ego loss without drugs being a dangerous path, in my experience it's just as temporary then as it is with drugs, though, I admit - you do lack that little mantra of "I'm on a drug, this will all end soon" if things go awry, so it's easy to assume you'll be stuck that way forever. Yours was probably caused by the stress of over-thinking, it's amazing how easy it is to send our own brains into a state of temporary psychosis, scary, but amazing nonetheless. For me it was a potent Sativa when I was very new to Cannabis.

I always enjoy reading about these sorts of experiences so it's great you posted this. If it wasn't for posts like these, those weeks I underwent a similar experience would have been horrible - it was only reading similar experiences that calmed me and made me realise it might pass with time.

 

[Qwick]

Yeah, it's crazy how my perception of derealization changed after this experience. Reading about it is one thing, but having it happen is completely different. It's so much more extreme than I would've predicted. I'm feeling better today than yesterday though, so I'm sure it will continue to get better.

I also wanted to mention that derealization / depersonalization may be, on some level, a defense mechanism to control stress in one's environment. I notice that I'm really detached from things going on around me and I can see how being in this state could be advantageous on some level. You just get completely walled off.

I have to say though, I'm starting to feel a greater appreciation for certain things in life coming out of this. That's one upside to the experience.

Heh, some aspects of my original post are a little bit out there...

 

[Psychodelirium]

it's obvious when the person you perceive yourself as crumbles into the environment.

This definitely sounds like some kind of ego loss and not at all like derealization. Did you feel like your environment was unreal or emotionally muted in some way? Derealization and ego loss are really opposite sorts of experiences. Derealization is a feeling of increased distance from the environment. In ego loss that distance collapses entirely and you feel like you are merging with the environment. It sometimes feels to me as though there is a "reality dial" which in ego loss is turned all the way up, and in dysphoric states like derealization/depersonalization it is turned down.

Also what were you thinking about and why? And how did this experience impact on your behavior?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I've had some sober identity disturbances. Not lately (well, they seem to have coincided with my periods of frequent dissociative use, and could take a while to clear up), but the world would look sort of different, I felt as though there were no center of my 'self', that there was no concrete "I" to grab on to and thus I was a vague confluence of processes that blended with environment. A hollow sort of feeling, like the normal forces of the world and people's attempts at communication would pass right through me. Sometimes my mental reconstructions of past events would start to feel sort-of-real, and the real world sort-of-dreamlike. It sucked, but it seemed to cause a lower base level of anxiety than when I'm normal.

 

[Qwick]

I didn't really mean merging with the environment. I just meant that my identity kind of cracked. Like all my experiences got sucked down a hole. I don't believe that's as bad as derealization experiences can get though. I think it could happen to a degree where you forget your name and go into like full on amnesia and just end up staring at a wall in a kind of daze. Or perhaps eventually have a psychotic episode.

I agree that derealization is a disconnect from the environment, and ego loss is a merging with it. That's basically the conclusion I came to. One is a very positive experience, the other is a negative traumatic experience where you lose your grip on reality. Although again, I've never experienced ego loss, it's just my opinion. But the place I was in was definitely a removal from reality. It's like there's a wall between you and everything else and your perception of yourself is kind of blurry. Like you're not you anymore.

An important point is that when it happened, I didn't know what's going on, I thought that a permanent change was occurring in my mind. That's where all the fear comes from basically. You feel like your identity is going away and not coming back. I mean I legitimately thought that my brain had undergone a permanent change and that my new existence would be within that disconnected state. I thought I had permanently lost a huge chunk of my ego or identity, and that was my new life. That's the part that really fucks you up. It seems kind of ridiculous if you're not in that state but logic and reason go out the window and your perception is very crooked.

Also, derealization can come in a lot forms I think. Some people have more acute experiences, others have more blunted longer term experiences. For me it was just brief and really overwhelming. It happened 2-3 times and then there's a lingering feeling afterwards that I still have.

While my memory about myself is totally intact, my memory of the last week is pretty blurry which is why I can't even tell you if this happened 2 or 3 times on the acute level because my memory surrounding the last few days isn't great. It all just kind of blurs together. And I still have slight feelings of my life not being real, etc. But it's getting better.

One thing that's extremely noticeable is how your anxiety drops, as mentioned above. I mean, for me, it almost completely went away following each event, which is not something I've felt in a while. That's what makes me think it's some kind of defense mechanism. And it tricks you into thinking that the state is useful because it lowers your anxiety levels but actually you're just losing touch with reality. And the lowered anxiety state is temporary.

The state is really heavily influenced by how you think about it. Some people just ignore it probably and so it never gets that crazy. While others feed it by over-thinking which makes it worse. I've stopped over-thinking and so I'm on the way to being relatively normal again.

 

[jaurk]

I've only had 2-3 really intense ~5min ones,
One experience when I was in juniour high, I was sitting in assembly/parade and the dude talking goes

"So, who here has work experience?"
And just as he opened his mouth to say that, it hit me.

I instantly went, woah.. where the heck am I.
I see everyone put their hand up in the air, and I wonder.. does my body have work experience?
And I sit there wondering.. if I try to put my hand up, will it actually go up in the air.. and will other people see it?

Or do I not exist, at some points I felt asif I was watching my body for 1 meter away, I could see my body sitting there emotionless, yet my conciousness was in deep thought, and I could see the difference between physical reality, and our conciousness's reality.

Very odd, other really long lingering ones always get me scared, as I forget what feeling real feels like, and I spend lots of time hoping it will go away, as I walk around and I go around no being noticed by anyone, and I stare at people because I think to myself that I'm not real.. so I stare without realizing.

I have many many memories of walking to my classes in senior high whith mild/strong derealization, pain is dimmed, and everything is dreamy.

I got my first few after surgery, and some others after a nights of heavy drinking.

---I hope this makes sense, I don't have enough time to read over my text.. I'll fix it up later ---

 

[steve022]

Derealization, depersonalization, dissociation, psychosis, mania, chronic depression, etc. are all just psychiatry's labels for these sorts of transpersonal experiences that CAN happen with or without drugs either suddenly or gradually. If you feel that you experienced ego death then you most certainly did. I'd be willing to bet that if you spoke to a mental health professional about this they probably would say you had something like depersonalization probably with some derealization. However, all it takes to see the experience as beneficial rather than pathological is belief. If you know you experienced ego death and not something pathological then you have experienced ego death. I think it's kind of messed up that stuff like this gets diagnosed as something pathological when some people probably benefited from their non-drug induced spiritual, transpersonal, or even hallucinatory experiences. Also, OP, derealization/depersonalization rarely, if ever induces a psychotic episode and if it did it would usually be very short lived and mild. However, from what I have heard derealization can get quite scary to say the least and I would not wish it on anyone. I believe that I suffered from derealization for a while when I was younger and it really can put a damper on your life and can be very difficult to really control.

 

[Solipsis]

Reintegration is a key step in the process of many of these phenomena if it is to be processed mentally in a healthy way and serve a therapeutic purpose. There may be a number of things deep and repeated meditation (like on a retreat), transient drug-induced ego loss / death, depersonalisation and derealisation have in common.

Realising your deeper self or a spiritual connection with the world IMO should not prevent you from aligning it with your superficial self. Which serves a purpose and probably helps a person stay grounded.

If any trigger causes a dissociation from your identity as a person always be careful not to let it turn into fragmentation and loss of coherence. Don't neglect parts of your self and certainly don't deny anything as false. I've read plenty of accounts (even ones reported in very current PD thread(s) ) where someone reports (a part of) his/her self or the world as being fake and unreal. If there even is a more ultimate reality, that does not render the more mundane manifestations pointless or dangerous. The solution is not to reject that part of how you interface with the world, but rather to learn to maintain an abiding realisation that helps you from confusing those mere manifestations as ultimate truth or reality. Clinging to something as real over other things is dangerous, just like 'killing off part of yourself' or making your very existence dependent on other aspects of the world, like the ackowledgement of another person, all of which is a psychotic thing to do.

Integrate all of that for the sides of our selves, the world, and reality as we experience it... then just keep it in the back of your mind but leave it be. Be careful digging around if you are not comfortable about your state of mind. Sure, sometimes we can have very profound realisations about something only after having let go temporarily of it... but that should ultimately only show you what it's place in the your reality is and its impermanence. But then you come back from it, give it meaning and a place and start using your mapping of your world again.
I've been through an identity / existential crisis for years and fortunately I no longer feel the need to find answers and am satisfied with much (re)integration. Don't mess around too much with things that you are not recognizing for what they are (yet).

 

[TwistafleX]

The battle of the ego's is constant. Awake, Asleep, whether you realize it or not. You can't simply abandon the ego, never to be seen again. Even under psychosis like you're talking about, Even then the Id and super-ego wage war. No matter the mental state. You can however temporarily lift the influence of the polar ego's and look at the ego from another perspective. Bridging the gap between our consciousnesses and the hyper-dimensional plane no doubt propelled the catalyst that led to the expanding brain and unique consciousness of our primitive ancestors. The ego is being suppressed and the political and media agendas are using the battle of the ego's to their advantage. The same agenda the government uses to forbid anything that bridges the gap of consciousness. What I'm getting at is you are caught in the same battle, Try not to lose it!