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RCs Drug (dissociative, opioid) use exacerbated ADHD?

plumbus-nine

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
3,653
Anybody else having to deal with exacerbated ADHD after abusing dissociatives and/or opioids? More possibly the dissociatives (been extensively using them, almost daily, from 2016-20 and morphine/methadone from 2018-21).

I've been off any recreational drugs besides kratom (off that for 2 months) for a year now with one 'relapse' around half a year ago.

I was diagnosed with adult ADD before but stuff is on a new level now. I can't focus on anything which doesn't really interest me and with motivation also down the toilet there's little which really interests me here and now. Also I'm in quite a lost situation because of no job, no real future, overwhelming debt in my original country why I'm living abroad and struggling with learning the local language. Also a new factor is hyperactivity, before I had primarily problems directing my focus but could sit still for hours on e.g. coding stuff or engaging in conversation but now even active stuff like writing this posting requires a great deal of forcing myself to finish it instead of switching to something else, like watching a movie for 15min, then switching again ... it's really bad and doesn't improve with time. Time feels so awfully slow now and like said even movies etc. can't distract me for long anymore. One dose of a dissociative and it'd be gone for some hours to days but that's not an option anymore, no availability.

Other thing are ruminating, intrusive thoughts primarily about failures during my adult life which I just can't change anymore. Oh, forgot to say, I was on SSRI until 2 months ago, tapered down and quit. would say they were almost a plain dependence which I just thought to not rush into withdrawal but no more benefits. Possibly did the ADHD worsen a bit, but only a bit, upon quitting. Was on venlafaxine for 10+years and on fluoxetine for 3 months as a taper aid.

Will using stims (lisdexamph or methylphenidate) make stuff worse or help, given that I could get a script here which isn't sure for now? I think whether there's a difference between drug-induced vs. natural ADHD like it is with psychosis where in drug induced cases the therapy options mostly fail (been there as well, it resolved without treatments upon abstinence, Idk I'm wary with the term brain damage but probably I'll have acquired some).
 
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100% yes, although I never used them daily - at least, not for extended periods, USUALLY not simultaneously. My opiate of choice was kratom so, perhaps, a minor one, however I'm still convinced my existing problems began to fall off a sharp cliff once I began using kratom and became addicted to it a few times. I believe I first tried kratom in 2019 ish... initially I had few issues, would go through a 50 gram bag or so for a week and not notice much different when I stopped. By 2020, I was beginning to notice negatives from overuse, feeling like shit waking up in the morning, etc... coincidentally, perhaps not so helpfully, although, honestly, in retrospect I had a pretty chilled year it was the beginning of the first COVID lockdowns, I went from working from home pretty often to ALL the time, I had a lot of shit to do, and where kratom used to be motivating I now found it motivated me mainly to sit around watching TV shows endlessly. When I'd start to feel stressed about my apparently invisible handcuffs that bound me and kept me from the shit I really could have been doing - and for which that year was, in some ways, a golden opportunity - I'd read it as a kratom rebound moreso than a building psychological pressure to actually apply myself to the kind of tasks that were actually important to my life. By the end of 2020, I'd been fully addicted to and gone through full blown withdrawals at least twice, the second time culminating in about 60 days of absolute sobriety where I even went to some goddamn zoom AA type meetings, swallowing my pride even though I do think that whole movement is a sadly dysfunctional cult which persists moreso because of it's lack of catastrophic failings that can't just be ascribed to substance issues moreso than any real benefit in the program. But I digress...

Dissociatives, I used more sparingly, but despite my best efforts I wouldn't be surprised if over a 3 or 4 year period... I'd used maybe at least a gram of ketamine, on average, every 2 or 3 weeks. This is interspersed with periods of heavier usage when I had time off, as my permatolerance grew, and accumulating stress from seemingly going nowhere in improving my life and an increasing inability to actually make myself DO ANYTHING or even WANT to do anything except continue to binge on ketamine (I also did a bunch of other dissociatives during this period, but ketamine was and remains my Disso of choice, despite it's many shortcomings).

Complicating things further was the fact that I was using both modafinil and phenibut on and off during weekdays in an effort to just squeeze some goddamn productivity out of myself. This worked, maybe for a few years with diminishing returns. Eventually, as you might imagine - it was no longer enough to curb my rapidly cratering ability to take executive action in any area of my life without, basically... at least a week or 2 just lying around doing fuck all, and I mean fuck all, mostly lying on a sofa with my phone in my hand or staring catatonically at a show on a laptop - followed by some heavy doses - well, 150mg armoda, phenibut maybe, 1g-2g, tianeptine sulphate, ~40mg ish as needed. I forgot about that, I guess tianeptine counts as an opiate too. Actually tianeptine I credit with keeping me going longer than I reasonably should have been able to - but anyway, this polypharmaceutical self-medication would at best give me a few days of hard work followed by a crash where I was, again, useless, unmotivated, unable to even care about that fact but continuously agonising over how little I was getting done, nonetheless.

Fortunately modafinil, phenibut, tianeptine - in reasonable doses - and, honestly, I really never had any desire to increase the dose in years of use - are fairly forgiving substances. But combined with the slightly too frequent opiate and dissociative use to chill out, being artificially and unproductively wired but looking kinda busy through the week - I mean, I do not think I was doing myself any favours.

Beginning of 2021 following maybe 4-5 months of total sobriety I was put on an SSRI for Generalised Anxiety Disorder - sertraline. The diagnosis, I think was accurate - but not the whole picture. It maybe did something but did nothing to quell my now constant feelings of overwhelm, disinterest in doing anything to improve my life, and shortly after I thought, fuck this, and started using ketamine again occasionally. Finding that modafinil and phenibut were no longer doing the job, I "upgraded" to straight amphetamine and clonazepam/diazepam, in alternating cycles just to keep functioning which essentially abandoning sertraline after maybe a couple of months. I was not able to use speed consistently without a painfully obvious feeling that it was really gonna fuck up my brain, but I did develop a fairly low key clonazepam addiction which waxed and waned but took maybe 8 months to kick entirely.

Throughout this - while drugs were probably an unhelpful factor - I maintain that I was just doing what I needed to do to survive. I was in an extremely stressful job with a lot of responsibility which didn't always mean a large workload, although if I'd been more with it, I could for sure have taken on more work and made myself more useful than I did. I most ended up doing the bare minimum for months at a time interspersed with a few weeks of high intensity busywork to burnout - unfortunately not the way to actually finish anything properly, but somehow, enough - these periods inevitably would be the ones following periods of abstinence when I would just be like christ... I guess my brain is permanently broken.

Right now - actually since the beginning of this year - I'm now unemployed, have close to zero true responsibilities, set my own schedule, and yet I have not yet got over the constant feeling that I should be doing MORE, no matter what it is I'm doing. The net effect is that I'm mostly doing nothing but I try to take comfort in the fact that I am obviously, doing SOME things, if very slowly... this is just time I need to heal.

I've also been diagnosed with adult onset ADHD - I was as honest with my prescribing doctor as I felt was prudent, which is to say, I did not lie, but neither did I elaborate as I have done here to the full extent of my attempts at self medication. I've been prescribed ritalin / methylphenidate, both the IR and XR versions - they helped, SOMEWHAT - but ultimately just give me more physical energy but have close to zero impact on my "cognitive energy" which is close to nonexistent, I'd say, 70% of the days. I'm about to be prescribed lisdexamphetamine instead - I am, honestly, looking forward to this - amphetamines do make me functional - to an extent, despite my many mistakes - I know my own mind, by now. However, I am not expecting miracles. I've come to realise that there is simply no purely pharmacological intervention to undo the situation I've got myself into, and am thus receiving therapy to augment the impact of the medication. Basic stuff - write a list in the morning of a few things to do that day - not too much! Try to do them. Rinse, repeat. Every time I get into some kind of light mania from feeling that I'm finally getting myself back on track, the result is the same - a few days of intense focus on a multitude of projects, then a week to recover where I just don't even have the inclination to do much except get out of bed and wrestle with my intrusive thoughts about how much of my life I'm wasting, what a lazy, useless waste of space I am, etc... maybe you know the drill.

On that note - I don't expect that medication is going to be a panacea which solves all my problems. I need to keep trying at the nonpharmacological routes. BUT, I do want that prescription and official diagnosis because in my country it is EXTREMELY difficult to get prescribed a prescription stimulant, most people think ADHD is just laziness, as far as I can tell. I mean, they're progressive enough not to say it - but if it hasn't affected them in such an intense way - my impression is that they think it. Most of my family for example have been very skeptical of my efforts to get my condition recognised, although they are, again, kind enough to mostly keep their thoughts to themselves - even as they directly witness my obvious despondency, apathy, and endless frustration, I think there's a part of them that still thinks I just don't try hard enough - or - I love this one - "I just haven't found something that interests me yet!" - well, no shit. Nothing interests me, really.

I have no doubt that my condition is at least partly drug induced, however it's also stress induced, and my drug use was a survival mechanism in response to that stress. As far as I'm concerned, whatever the origin, the result is the same - and some drugs do help, but rather than relying on illicitly acquired shit while I work through my issues and all the potential need to hide my usage, stigma, uncertain purity, etc, I'd prefer to be in the system, with access to pharmaceutical grade dopamine agonists and professionals who actually do appear to acknowledge that my situation is possibly not something I'm going to get out of without help on a few fronts - both pharmacological and therapeutic, and of course whatever will I can muster on my part to keep trying to do things I know are good for me...

Damn, sorry, didn't mean to give you my life story almost, but I guess I had a lot to say about this topic.
 
My ADHD (only discovered and diagnosed last year) got a lot worse as well as I grew older, didn't do much dissos and no opioids though. It's obviously hard to quantify or anything but I think worsening ADHD is uncommon but still fairly normal.

Methylphenidate for me works okay-ish, it's a pretty miserable drug but I need it to work. I also take Strattera which works amazingly for me, it luckily also lacks the typical stimulant (side)-effects profile and is almost fully transparent. For me at this point in my life it would be impossible to function without these two, and I for sure couldn't have crawled out of all the holes I'd been digging for so many years. Definitely worth a shot imo, it seems unlikely that it'd make things worse.
 
00% yes, although I never used them daily - at least, not for extended periods, USUALLY not simultaneously. My opiate of choice was kratom so, perhaps, a minor one, however I'm still convinced my existing problems began to fall off a sharp cliff once I began using kratom and became addicted to it a few times. I believe I first tried kratom in 2019 ish... initially I had few issues, would go through a 50 gram bag or so for a week and not notice much different when I stopped. By 2020, I was beginning to notice negatives from overuse, feeling like shit waking up in the morning, etc... coincidentally, perhaps not so helpfully, although, honestly, in retrospect I had a pretty chilled year it was the beginning of the first COVID lockdowns, I went from working from home pretty often to ALL the time, I had a lot of shit to do, and where kratom used to be motivating I now found it motivated me mainly to sit around watching TV shows endlessly.
wow man, I could have written that except for TV shows, in my case it's youtube or music (I play piano, at least is something creative...)
I'm trying to stop kratom but I'm kinda stuck, mainly because I don't feel like having 2 not-so-good weeks of dopamine replenishing would do me any good when I need to start a very serious project that I don't want to start.. is a nightmare honestly, I wake up every day thinking about doing that (today is the day!). I'm still undiagnosed but it's so incredibly clear taht I have it, I realized a year ago, reading stuff about ADD. Normally in our case (early onset diabetics type 1) it's the innatentive type, but it doesn't change so much, it's just harder to diagnose when you're a child.
I'm quite sure that since I use kratom my adhd has gone worse and worse, specially after starting use daily, before that it seemed to be positive on my symptoms. I think it just help you to feel "ok" with the symptoms so it's more difficult to really address the problem seriously and willingly.
 
>Anybody else having to deal with exacerbated ADHD after abusing dissociatives
Yes
>Will *amphetamine/*phenidate help
Yes
>Is this a proper long term solution
????
Probably not
 
If you want something that could seem a "long term solution" (which would be changing your brain network...) some things come to my mind, you could use these nootropics, just to try:
bromantane

9me-bc

and daily sabroxy (oroxylin-a)
 
Bromantane I've tried - arguably, perhaps, not under controlled conditions. My verdict right now is... dubious. I know that's not a real verdict. It does.. something.

The other 2 look interesting although I have no experience or knowledge, really, of them.

There are a few others, P21, posssibly BPC-157 (not up to date on how reliable reports of this being an almost [maybe implausible] total-brain-tolerance-renormalizer are) administered via nasal spray.

I'm tempted to include things like Semax and Selank but, although they are both fascinating substances in their own right, evidence of their role in any kind of "long term solution" is lacking.
 
Thanks for your answers guys!

Do you think it is a problem of receptor dysregulation due to artificially increased dopamine? Interesting that you seem to say that it might be as well the opioids and kratom as the dissociatives. Because of all the rumor about NMDA antagonist induced neurotoxicity I just assumed they would have been the culprit and I can't completely uncouple one from the other as I slipped into a deep, two substance addiction at roughly the same time. Before I was using dissociatives maybe from once a month to twice a week but never daily, and besides from sometimes feeling a bit weird on the day after I had no problems. Opioids I also did methadone and tramadol every now and then but was always wary about using them too often and resulting addiction. I only started using them daily when I was already on dissos daily and went into the opioid maintenance program in the hope of getting something legal on Rx which would satisfy my cravings and needs for altered state after my first long term gf kicked me out to street from one day to the next (longer story but that's what triggered my reckless substance use).

Now as said I've been off morphine for a year, dissos around 2 years with one relapse, and kratom for maybe 6 weeks. The ADHD stuff didn't resolve much, rather I think with some substance I could concentrate better ... now recently I found some leftover morphine pills and decided to use them, sparingly, well it would have been a waste to flush them I thought, and I can't get more here and now anyways, so.. Now just 60mg of morphine not only do they feel good but also greatly enhance my ability to concentrate. Less inner jitteriness. I assume this is due to more dopamine in some relevant parts of the brain, and might answer my question about amphetamine to which I feel @H3N is right though - that it would be a short term but not necessarily a long term fix.
BUT many people with natural ADHD, adult onset or childhood one, live a good life with therapeutic amphetamine. Guess I have to try harder to find a doc who might provide me with a script, as I am in MX and don't speak enough Spanish yet, this isn't the easiest task and my gf who usually helps me translating stuff isn't so fond of me using amphetamines (primarily because of all the bad rumors about controlled substances) but she'd accept it if I had clear benefits from it.

Interesting @Vastness and @Neuroborean , I've read about P21 before and bromantane as well as selank were in my focus.. just that here and now there's exactly one nootropic shop which is seriously overpriced and not the friendliest person to communicate with. I've tried to import from the states but parcel got intercepted and returned to the vendor who then began to ignore me despite having promised a refund. It sucks that this country is so strict about importing stuff when they're one of the worlds largest and most famous drug trafficking corridors. But it is how it is and I have to accept it. They have selank and semax (I think to remember you wrote me in my other thread about being too 'associated' - this was before I realized that my condition resembles ADHD pretty much - about selank and semax and that their activity on NMDA is oppositing, that selank decreases and semax increases NMDAr activity) for quite a heavy price, P21 unfortunately not and BPC-157 neither. I guess they won't import for a single customer on wish, and I guess their prices are so high both because they're the only source here and that they need to bribe customs.

They also had some prolintane, unfortunately it's gone now and no restock, but it was great. As you will know it is the desbetaketone-variant of alpha-PVP and exactly so did it feel. Finally I could concentrate and focus again, and with a good feeling underneath instead of the chronical dissatisfaction I am living with usually atm.

They have 9-Me-BC though, maybe I'll sample this, but I need to think about it as the prices are too high to justify daily or regular use I don't want to experience a new chemical which helps me just to have abstain from it like with the prolintane.

@Buzz Lightbeer Also interesting, wonder how prevalent it is for adult ADHD to grew worse as age increases.
I might give Strattera a try, it's OTC here but I'm wary of anything overly norepinephrinergic, as I'm very sensitive to it and e.g. DXM as being a SNRI gives me panic attacks when dosed too high as did quetiapine at above 400mg (it metabolizes partly into a pretty strong NRI compound). Read that atomoxetine is a low-strength NMDA antagonist which might be promising but I guess its affinity compared to the NET one is too low for real benefits.

I did give memantine a few tries in different dosages but usually ended up taking too much of it and being unable to sleep for two nights which scared my gf and caused some symptoms of sleep deprivation to reappear which isn't what I want. Might try it again strictly sticking to 20mg/d or max. 30mg/d and if possible together with methylphenidate (which might be easier to get as it doesn't have amphetamine in its name). I feel it's better in low dosage together with a stim, in higher dosage on its own it is kinda dirty and comes with at least as much adverse effects than positive ones.
 
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Anybody else having to deal with exacerbated ADHD after abusing dissociatives and/or opioids? More possibly the dissociatives (been extensively using them, almost daily, from 2016-20 and morphine/methadone from 2018-21).

I've been off any recreational drugs besides kratom (off that for 2 months) for a year now with one 'relapse' around half a year ago.

I was diagnosed with adult ADD before but stuff is on a new level now. I can't focus on anything which doesn't really interest me and with motivation also down the toilet there's little which really interests me here and now. Also I'm in quite a lost situation because of no job, no real future, overwhelming debt in my original country why I'm living abroad and struggling with learning the local language. Also a new factor is hyperactivity, before I had primarily problems directing my focus but could sit still for hours on e.g. coding stuff or engaging in conversation but now even active stuff like writing this posting requires a great deal of forcing myself to finish it instead of switching to something else, like watching a movie for 15min, then switching again ... it's really bad and doesn't improve with time. Time feels so awfully slow now and like said even movies etc. can't distract me for long anymore. One dose of a dissociative and it'd be gone for some hours to days but that's not an option anymore, no availability.

Other thing are ruminating, intrusive thoughts primarily about failures during my adult life which I just can't change anymore. Oh, forgot to say, I was on SSRI until 2 months ago, tapered down and quit. would say they were almost a plain dependence which I just thought to not rush into withdrawal but no more benefits. Possibly did the ADHD worsen a bit, but only a bit, upon quitting. Was on venlafaxine for 10+years and on fluoxetine for 3 months as a taper aid.

Will using stims (lisdexamph or methylphenidate) make stuff worse or help, given that I could get a script here which isn't sure for now? I think whether there's a difference between drug-induced vs. natural ADHD like it is with psychosis where in drug induced cases the therapy options mostly fail (been there as well, it resolved without treatments upon abstinence, Idk I'm wary with the term brain damage but probably I'll have acquired some).
100% yes. imo it's either from direct structural damage, or upregulation of glutamate over time from NMDA abuse. but yeah, my ADHD is out of fucking control. I also have dissociative PTSD and man, after decades on opes / gaba drugs / NMDA antags I will get catatonically agitated for hours like, twitching/lost time/staring at the damn wall. Tasks are super hard to follow through. It's been difficult.
 
They have 9-Me-BC though, maybe I'll sample this, but I need to think about it as the prices are too high to justify daily or regular use I don't want to experience a new chemical which helps me just to have abstain from it like with the prolintane.
but 9-me-bc it's only till you feel "ok" with it,
as it "upregulates" long term the dopamine receptors, regenerating them, afaik
 
How much and for how long would I need to take the 9-Me-BC approximately? Local vendor sells it but very expensive as most nootropics here. But it sounds promising, to help upregulating dopamine. Wonder if this effect is related to the MAO inhibition or an independent one.
 
How much and for how long would I need to take the 9-Me-BC approximately? Local vendor sells it but very expensive as most nootropics here. But it sounds promising, to help upregulating dopamine. Wonder if this effect is related to the MAO inhibition or an independent one.
As far as I remember it wasn't because of MAOi stuff but different, more complex and perhaps long term mechanism.
here you have some info:


"The number of differentiated dopaminergic neurones was significantly increased and a wide array of neurotrophic/transcription factors (Shh, Wnt1, Wnt5a, En1, En2, Nurr1, Pitx3) and marker genes (Th, Dat, Aldh1a1) decisive for dopaminergic differentiation was stimulated. Consistently, the dopamine content was slightly, although non-significantly, increased and the dopamine uptake capacity was elevated."


"First, tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) expression was stimulated in pre-existing dopa decarboxylase immunoreactive neurons and several TH-relevant transcription factors (Gata2, Gata3, Creb1, Crebbp) were up-regulated. Neurite outgrowth of TH immunoreactive (THir) neurons was likewise stimulated. The interaction with tyrosine kinases (protein kinase A and C, epidermal growth factor-receptor, fibroblast growth factor-receptor and neural cell adhesion molecule) turned out to be decisive for these observed effects. Second, 9-me-BC protected in acute toxicity models THir neurons against lipopolysaccharide and 2,9-dime-BC(+) toxicity. Third, in a chronic toxicity model when cells were treated with 9-me-BC after chronic rotenone administration, a pronounced regeneration of THir neurons was observed. Fourth, 9-me-BC inhibited the proliferation of microglia induced by toxin treatment and installed an anti-inflammatory environment by decreasing the expression of inflammatory cytokines and receptors. Finally, 9-me-BC lowered the content of alpha-synuclein protein in the cultures. The presented results warrant the exploration of 9-me-BC as a novel potential anti-parkinsonian medication, as 9-me-BC interferes with several known pathogenic factors in Parkinson's disease as outlined above. "

So, being a bit gross and super simple: it makes a lot of different changes, in cells and surroundings that makes Parkinson very complicated, I mean, it creates the perfect conditions on which dopaminergic neurons and dopaminergic activity it's promoted, specially chemo-genetic transcription factors and other biochemical parameters.
 
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