Heroin does snorting #3 heroin work? and--iD'ing heroin base v. heroin salt

[waldo777]

Got dope on a french island in the caribbean, it was a darkish tan-brown color and a gram was a mix of small very soft rocks, pebbles and chunky powder. One junkie called it "brown sugar", but I was assured that it could be snorted. Having been in w/d b4 scoring even loaded up with codeine, I got relief and high after snorting a line.
SO I know it worked, def not a placebo, but I'm guessing that it was #3 heroin base, the stuff xommon to europe, and that it wouldn't work if snorted b/c it isn't water soluble, just like crack cocaine. Assuming it was #3 Heroin for arguments sake....
1) Does snorting #3 heroin work? And
2) If so, then why?

Also 3) are there any ways to tell the diff btwn #3 v #4?-----(I tried dissolving a little bit in water and some dissolved and other portions, 10-40% being a crude estimate, didn't dissolve in room temp water)

 

[amapola]

Assuming it was #3 Heroin for arguments sake....
1) Does snorting #3 heroin work? And
2) If so, then why?

Once in the nose the drugs dissolve in or mixes with your snot. They then can cross the nasal membrane by one of two paths: by transcellular transport where they go into the epitheal cell through the mucus membrane and then back out the other side through the other named membrane, or by paracellular transport where they go in between the cells in tight spaces.

Small water soluble things go via paracellular and larger hydrophobes go via paracellular. There's a lot more to it than that with lipophilicity, contact with the membrane, and look up the BBB if you are interested.

Also 3) are there any ways to tell the diff btwn #3 v #4?-----(I tried dissolving a little bit in water and some dissolved and other portions, 10-40% being a crude estimate, didn't dissolve in room temp water)

If the water gets you high it's a salt if not it's a base.

 

[waldo777]

So are you suggesting that drugs almost if not completely insoluble in water will still get one high if snorted? I didn't think that was possible...I.e; why snorting crack / cocaine freebase doesn't work, and why snorting many benzo's is considered by many BL's to be a wasteful practice? I'm always happy to learn new things, I just don't see the differance...

--btw, I never snorted the water mixture, simply dropped some water onto the surface with the remaining bits of H on it to see if it would dissolve or not. But the amount of H I tested, combined w/ the fact that a base could be cut with salts that do dissolve made it a very non-scientific and rather useless test....

 

[OntarioGuy]

^Benzo's aren't wasteful snorted because they aren't water soluble,its because most common benzos have an oral b/a close too 100% anyways.and since pills like xanax have say 1 mg of active drug,and lets say 100 mg's of filler,its just not practical to snort it with all that powder hindering the absorption of the alprazolam.I would snort pure benzo powders for a more rapid onset for sure.

To the OP,Im sure heroin base can infact be snorted...I wouldn't be able to tell base from salt....I'd try the water test again,then add some vinegar or ascorbic acid powder and see if it dissolves.if it goes into solution then its probably base.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ drugs DO need to be water soluble to be effectively absorbed via insufflation and heroin base is not water soluble so unless an acid was added, snorting is not an effective route.

OP, why do you think it was #3 (base) and not #4 (hydrochloride)?

Also, the only way those non-water soluble benzos are going to work insufflated are when they drip down into your stomach.

 

[OntarioGuy]

^Sorry if I was mistaken,I was under the impression that more factors then water solubility came into play when it came to nasal drug absorbtion.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ There are other factors that come into play in determining absorption, however solubility (and therefore membrane permeability) are the major factors when you're talking about a recreational dose of something.

Here is a pretty interesting (pdf) piece on the subject if anyone is interested.

 

[waldo777]

I thought it was #3 b/c I was in a European country (in the caribbean but the place is technically a part of France), it was called "brown sugar" by a local junkie--a term I've only heard used to describe heroin base, and it had a color and consistency I haven't seen before and I've ONLY ever gotten #4 NJ/NY dope. Also this place is an established staging area for cocaine and heroin to be shipped to the Netherlands and other parts of europe.

I did however get rid of all my w/d symptoms and even got me high, but it also left big sticky brown clumps of w/e in my snot. Lastly, I read an archived BL thread where many claimed that snorting european #3 heroin base works just fine, so I'm genuinely confused.....

 

[amapola]

drugs DO need to be water soluble to be effectively absorbed via insufflation and heroin base is not water soluble so unless an acid was added, snorting is not an effective route.
...
There are other factors that come into play in determining absorption, however solubility (and therefore membrane permeability) are the major factors when you're talking about a recreational dose of something.

This is how I always though it was.

Chemicals need to be non-polar/fat soluble to cross the membranes via transcellular transport. They also need to be in solution and ideally equally spread out throughout the nasal cavity.

When it comes to drugs you can snort, for example heroin, the reason it is effective is because the heroin base is lipophilic and therefore easily passes through cell membranes. The only reason you want to snort the salt instead of the freebase is because the salt will dissolve in the mucus fluid better and therefore get into solution and spread out while more of the free base will stay solid.

For something like morphine free base which is more polar (i.e. water soluble) morphine is less able to cross the nasal membrane via transcellular transport and it has a much lower nasal bioavailability.

As an aside since heroin freebase is more lipophilic than morphine it is able to cross the BBB better which is why it is more potent.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ thanks for correcting that. I asked someone who I thought knew what they were talking about but apparently not (you know who you are!) so my apologies.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I was under the impression "brown sugar" referred to Mexican powder heroin, occasionally good #4, but oftentimes dried tar that's been cut with an inert powder, when re-exposed to moisture it might gum up a bit.

a mix of small very soft rocks, pebbles and chunky powder
but it also left big sticky brown clumps of w/e in my snot.

That makes it sound like the second option is quite possible, but maybe it's freebase, I don't know shit about #3 so it beats me.

 

[waldo777]

Yeah having never seen or even heard of someone else seeing black tar heroin, let alone #3 heroin base, I had, and still have, no reference point...

-Amapola, I'm still a bit confused:
Do #4 heroin and cocaine HCL get absorbed via transcellular or paracellular transport?
Also, you said that #3 heroin is absorbed via transcellular pathways, but that it also tends to be more "solid" in the nasal cavity than #4 heroin...does this mean that #3 does get absorbed when snorted, but not as efficiently as #4 or am I not understanding correctly?

Thanks

 

[amapola]

Do #4 heroin and cocaine HCL get absorbed via transcellular or paracellular transport?

Transcellular. Any drug that acts on your CNS (central nervous system) has to cross the BBB (blood brain barrier) and to do so it has to be lipid soluble as the BBB does not allow any paracellular transport.

Also, you said that #3 heroin is absorbed via transcellular pathways, but that it also tends to be more "solid" in the nasal cavity than #4 heroin...does this mean that #3 does get absorbed when snorted, but not as efficiently as #4.

Yes. The reason it doesn't get absorbed as well is because mucous fluid (mostly water) coats your membranes and heroin base won't dissolve in it while heroin salt will.

edit: I'm really not 100% positive about this stuff and haven't actually read up on it that much just drew bits and pieces together from other knowledge sources so you should read Cane's link. I shall when I get the chance but skimmed it and it looks like it covers everything.

 

[Sociable]

I've snorted heroin out of a fucking spoon it works trust me

 

[Corey9430]

Tar can easily be snorted cook it in some water as if you were going to bang it, and snort it.

 

[phr]

This is how I always though it was.

Chemicals need to be non-polar/fat soluble to cross the membranes via transcellular transport. They also need to be in solution and ideally equally spread out throughout the nasal cavity.

When it comes to drugs you can snort, for example heroin, the reason it is effective is because the heroin base is lipophilic and therefore easily passes through cell membranes. The only reason you want to snort the salt instead of the freebase is because the salt will dissolve in the mucus fluid better and therefore get into solution and spread out while more of the free base will stay solid.

For something like morphine free base which is more polar (i.e. water soluble) morphine is less able to cross the nasal membrane via transcellular transport and it has a much lower nasal bioavailability.

As an aside since heroin freebase is more lipophilic than morphine it is able to cross the BBB better which is why it is more potent.

Good post. I was just about to reply that yes, heroin base can be snorted.

Anyone interested in a more detailed description should check out the pdf cane linked to.


Oh, and you guys are talking about heroin #2. I don't know why so many people want to use the numbering system instead of just spelling out which form they have.

 

[walterdini]

Sounds like the OP didn't know what type of heroin he had, and the number system is the only "universal" refrence ppl have. My question is: what number or type of heroin is the powder heroin commonly found in europe, the stuff that needs acid to breakdown?
- is that #2 or #3? Is it freebase?

 

[Where Wolf?]

European heroin is almost exclusively No. 3. It can be snorted, though insufflation's a less efficient ROA than with either East Coast No. 4 or Tar - considerably so. Hence the popularity of smoking No. 3 on foil ('chasing the dragon') - it's heavily cut with caffeine to facilitate smoking, and needs to be cooked with citric acid in preperation for IV. I recently started a thread about this in EADD: having used on both sides of the Altantic, American H is far superior, through the nose, and I'm not clear on the science of why snorting No.3 works - but it does. However, the low BA and need to snort small bumps in order to avoid any drip/oral consumption makes snorting a fairly wasteful and frustrating method of ingestion, especially as most European heroin has been low quality in recent years.

Frankly, it's a hassle for those of us who don't shoot - smoking on foil's unpleasant, and apparently increases the risk of developing Alzheimer's, while shooting just doesn't appeal to some of us. This, combined with our inferior range of pharms (much less oxy, no hydrocodone, no dilaudid or oxymorphone - just dhc, morphine ER and IR pills, morphine linctus methadone, occasional rarities like pethidine/demerol, subs are hard to come by, the much-loved though vein-destroying diconal has pretty much vanished), makes the US a much better location for opiate lovers. That said, high grade No. 3, when it's around, is far superior to a lot of street tar I did in the SF Bay Area years ago - but we don't, or hardly ever, get anything that compares to East Coast Powder.

Our coke's gone to shit in the past few years, too - but the penalties for possession are at least a lot less draconian in most of Europe, and there's decriminalisation in Portugal.

 

[walterdini]

Where wolf-

You seem to have experience snorting european dope. Is the small bumps to help it absorb better? What about waterlining or plugging? And what about doing those routes (waterline and plug) with a solution of water + dope + citric acid?

If absorption is the issue, then it should work fine if its compleyely in solution thanks to the acid, no?