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does roa affect quality of experience as well as quantity?

alasdairm

alasdairm

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it's a simple fact that the bioavailability ("the rate and extent to which a drug reaches the systemic circulation") of mdma is different depending on the route or administration: insufflated; oral; rectal; sublingual.

for example, most people would agree that insufflated mdma is quantitatively faster to hit, given the quick absorption of the drug into the bloodstream through the soft tissue in the mucous membrane. agreed?

so, do you find that different roas have a qualitative effect on your experience (e.g. during and after onset, the effects feel different if you plug it than if you swallow it)?

alasdair
 
One way drugs could conceivably give a different qualitative experience via a different ROA is if one route bypassed first pass metabolism where as another did not - so insufflated/plugged/IM/IV vs oral. If active metabolites play a role (and have different effects to the initial drug) then the overall experience could potentially be different if those metabolites are produced faster. Equally, if the main drug is the cause of the effects rather than it's metabolites, metabolising it more quickly could lead to a different qualitative experience in the same way that a low dose psychedelic or dissociative has different effects to a high dose. The latter theory would be no different to the effects caused by varying bioavailability however and I don't think it is relevant in the case of MDMA.

I don't know if any of this applies to MDMA or not but I was debating the same thing with a friend the other day - I have to admit I have in the past found that insufflated MDMA feels qualitatively different to oral MDMA but it has always bothered me and I don't know how much of it is due to the power of suggestion or conditioning. Logically, apart from a differing bioavailability and plasma level curve, first pass metabolism is the only thing I can think of that would cause an objective difference between the ROAs.

This falls down for me when you look at plugging however; the blood supply from the rectum bypasses first-pass metabolism (same as insufflation) yet it feels qualitatively the same as oral MDMA to me. I also freely admit I know very little about the metabolism of MDMA (quick google reveals that it is complicated and is an area of ongoing research, be interested to hear if anyone has anything to say about it) and I have a sneaking suspicion that first-pass metabolism wouldn't have a significant effect - especially given it's duration of action. One point in it's favour however is that MDMA usually metabolises fairly slowly, so if MDMA metabolites do play a role it is not inconceivable that first-pass metabolism could be important.

The other theory we came up with was that we only tended to insufflate MDMA when we were really drunk, so perhaps that has a bearing :D I vaguely remember skim-reading a paper about alcohol's effects on the metabolism of MDMA, but being drunk certainly can subjectively affect the qualitative experience of a drug.

Apart from that.. I am at a loss, sorry ali :\ I spent a long time discussing this with a friend at the weekend and I am interested to hear what others have to say.
 
Well when you snort mdma the experience is less of a duration.

IF your waiting 30 - 90 days like you should be, (I like to wait around 60) then of course, you want the experience to last as long as possible!!!!
This is why i always say weigh your dose of tested mdma and capsule it.

I think that Duration is partly, the quality of your experience right?

I mean, 100mg gives me 4 hours, what more could i ask for?
 
^ duration is quantitative - it can be measured. e.g. a 4 hour experience is longer than a 3 hour experience.

i'm talking about qualitative factors that you often hear people discuss like: "it's better for dancing", "it feels more loved up", etc.

alasdair
 
Well im all for the euphoria of mdma really, I don't care too much for the energy for dancing ill always just capsule it, i hear it burns to hell to snort it anyway
 
It's a relatively common thing to hear - that oral MDMA gives a qualitatively different experience, more "loved up" or "warm" and snorting is more "speedy" or "shallow" - at least amongst the people I know (in various parts of the UK) - hence me discussing this with my friend at the weekend..

We came up with the first-pass metabolism theory and the alcohol theory but I am not convinced by either really. I do wonder if a lot of it has to do with expectations or the power of suggestion. It's something I have heard people talk about as long as I can remember taking MDMA.

Snorting does sting a little, yes, but it's nothing compared to the 2C-x drugs!
 
The only other ROA besides oral I've tried is rectal administration and I found the qualitative experience to be quite the same as oral administration. I think anything that shortens the duration of the MDMA experience will, for me anyways, diminish the overall quality of the experience. I might hit some higher peaks but I will also be coming down from those which I am not a fan of.
 
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I’ve found oral to be the most enjoyable. Snorting and plugging seems to make me more anxious and overwhelms me more, possibly because it hits a lot faster. When taken orally it seems to slowly creep up on me.
 
^ right. so your experience, talking holistically, is qualitatively different but it's because of quantitative effect (i.e. the speed with which the drug hits).
effie said:
I do wonder if a lot of it has to do with expectations or the power of suggestion. It's something I have heard people talk about as long as I can remember taking MDMA.
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i wonder that too, hence my asking.
Damien said:
The only other ROA besides oral I've tried is rectal administration and I found the qualitative experience to be quite the same as oral administration.
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i find the same.

thanks.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
^ right. so your experience, talking holistically, is qualitatively different but it's because of quantitative effect (i.e. the speed with which the drug hits).
Click to expand...

Correct, aside from that and duration I didn't notice much of a difference.
 
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