Does not killing your own meat reduce culpability

[RedRum OG]

I have been strictly vegetarian for 5 years, and in the preceding 20 years probably ate as much meat as your average American does in 6 months . I never bring it up and usually intentionally hide it, but still people drag me into conversations about its moral ramifications. Certain omnivores i know have expressed that because they themselves don't use the methods that cause undue harm to animals, or pollute, they are not as responsible for the moral side of it. Some common things I hear: "it's already in the store, it would get eaten either way" or "i try to buy from "'good' sources but they're hard to find/too expensive"

Because of my love for bodybuilding/weight lifting, I find it very hard to go full vegan. However the arguments for veganism are exactly the same as for vegetarianism, so I am a hypocrite. I feel that I am responsible for pain and pollution I cause just as if I were the farmer him/herself.

I guess it's similar to questions like "how much was a low level Nazi footsoldier responsible for the deaths of the Jews?"

What do you guys think?

 

[JessFR]

I think that if you have an ethical problem with killing animals for food, then you can't eat meat, and if you do you're a hypocrite.

The "it was already in the store" argument is crap.

Now personally I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, I'm sympathetic to the moral issues, but not nearly enough to stop eating meat. And I have no inherent problem with killing animals for food, just with some of the ways we go about it. But if you do have those moral problems, then you can't eat meat and not be a hypocrite.

 

[spacejunk]

I wouldn't kill an animal, so i don't consume meat.
For me it's easy - i've been vegetarian for ~20ish years, and vegan for ~2 years or so - and the idea of eating meat physically repulses me.
There are vegan bodybuilders though - i don't know what they eat exactly, but i can say with confidence that i don't feel i am lacking any sort of nutrients because of my diet. I'm pretty active, and have quite a few vegan friends that are sporty and whatnot - and i think a lot of the myths about vegan diets being unhealthy are just that - myths.
Occasionally i get a vitamin b12 shot, but besides that, i don't think it should present a problem.

As far as ethics go, i just have my own personal view that dead animals aren't food - but that comes as much from the fact that i never enjoying eating meat. The ethical considerations have developed out of that for me.

I think that for me, the ethics of eating wild animals is no different from eating factory farmed animals, although the latter is quite obviously more harmful environmentally and cruel - but i don't really think killing wild animals for food is any less problematic.

Like you though, i'm not terribly interested in discussing it - especially with people who disagree.
There's this belief that vegans are always forcing their diet-related ethics upon others - but in my experience, it's the other way around.
But personally i think vegan food is simply better - and there are a whole range of positive things about reducing (or ceasing) consumption of animal products.

 

[Xorkoth]

I think that if you're going to eat meat, hunting and killing a wild animal is the most ethical way to do it. That way you're not contributing to the meat industry at all, and you're naturally participating in the circle of life. You killed an animal (quickly ideally) that had lived its life until then, a single animal. A deer can feed you for a long time. Additionally, for deer in particular, at least in the USA, are overpopulated due to humans driving out all of their natural predators. We have become their natural predator, and if people don't hunt them to reduce their numbers, they begin to destabilize the ecosystem.

I also think it's a perfectly valid and also admirable decision to not eat meat.

 

[JessFR]

I think that if you're going to eat meat, hunting and killing a wild animal is the most ethical way to do it. That way you're not contributing to the meat industry at all, and you're naturally participating in the circle of life. You killed an animal (quickly ideally) that had lived its life until then, a single animal. A deer can feed you for a long time. Additionally, for deer in particular, at least in the USA, are overpopulated due to humans driving out all of their natural predators. We have become their natural predator, and if people don't hunt them to reduce their numbers, they begin to destabilize the ecosystem.

I also think it's a perfectly valid and also admirable decision to not eat meat.

I strongly agree. I think hunting animals for food, provided you do it competently, is far far more ethical than participating in the industrialized factory meat processing.

While I'm not a vegan, and I do think vegans often believe in and talk a lot of bullshit. I do greatly sympathize with the moral issues of meat consumption. I can't begrudge anyone for having moral issues with how we produce meat for the masses.

When I hear someone's a vegetarian or a vegan, what usually interests me is why they do it. If it's because of moral animal rights reasons, I can respect that. But I can't say I think quite so highly of a lot of the other reasons.

I also agree with spacejunk, that it's a bit hypocritical to eat meat of you wouldn't be willing to kill an animal. I love animals, and have no desire to kill them, but if my options truly were dinner or killing Bambi, Bambis going down.

 

[spacejunk]

I don't necessarly think that - i'm only concerned with my own ethical considerations; i'm not interested in calling people hypocrites or whatever; i'm pretty disinterested in what other people eat, and i don't have any reason to judge people for what they do or don't consume

As i've said before, the reason i originally stopped eating meat (then animal products altogether) is because i don't want to - i don't find meat, eggs or dairy appetising.
I also don't think they're healthy for me - when i went vegan, i had a life-long health condition that went away, after trying to cure it for 30-odd years.
Turns out i am lactose intolerant. I'd given up on ever getting over that, and the fact that it went awa

After a while it became somthing of an ethical choice too, but initially i was introduced to great veg food by lots of people (friends and family) and adapted to it myself.
It seemed that most of the vegetarians i knew in the 90s were happy and healthy, and i'd say the same thing about the vegans i know now.
I've never been interested in it as a "lifestyle" or identity thing - but that's cool if it's what people enjoy.

I have been to a couple of big vegan festivals since i moved to melbourne, and they both had a pretty interesting atmosphere - lots of kind (and beautiful) people.
Why are they beautiful? I guess it's an attitude thing - or a "birds of a feather" thing - but i think the vegans i know are far more attractive than omnivores.
I don't know why - i didn't consciously decide that; i just noticed it.

Maybe i think they are hot because we have shared values or something, but there's a sort of vibe that is unique amongst the vegan people i know - they seem to radiate health and empathy.
That sounds like hippie bullshit - and it is - but lots of the people i'm referring to are a long way from being hippies.

I guess it's just a nice feeling you get when you're amongst "your people" - wherever those people may be.
I'm sure some people get the same feeling in other places/crowds/events - it's something that eluded me in the town i grew up in, which is a conservative shit hole.

As for the whole eating wild animals thing being more ethical - it may well be, but i don't have enough knowledge (or interest, frankly) to make an informed comment.
I do think it's more complicated than the argument that it's ok because they're not factory farmed and presumably have a better life.
That may be true, but i have a friend who was vegetarian, but eats kangaroo meat - claiming that he's an "ethical meat eater".
My understanding of the kangaroo meat industry is that it's pretty brutal and there is a lot of unnecessary cruelty, especially if there are any joeys (baby kangaroos) in the mother's pouch - hunters pull them out of the dead mother's pouch an kill them.

But i don't see any reason to contradict my friend - what he puts into his body (and why) is his business, not mine.
If he's ok with what he eats, then so am i - because really, i don't care.

Of course, if someone has some interest in wholesome vegan food, i'll happily take them to a favourite restaurant, or make them some tasty plant-based grub.

In fact - this offer stands for any bluelighters that want to come round for dinner if you're ever in melbourne

Food is a pretty personal thing, which is why breaking bread with someone can be a powerful bonding experience.

But it's also why i think it is pretty pointless to try to convert people to your eating habits. I fucking love food, and get a lot of pleasure from cooking and eating good stuff, and it can be a good to discuss with people who are interested or on a similar wavelength - but it's pretty tedious discussing these things with people who don't really get it.

I mean - there are so many stereotypes about vegans being preachy and judgemental, but in my experience that's pretty common from meat-eaters when talking (down) to vegans, which is kind of ironic

One thing that i think is kinda interesting is that there tend to be more vegan women than men - so straight vegan women and gay vegan men often have hard time finding vegan guys to date.
I wonder if more guys would go vegan if they were aware of this?

 

[Xorkoth]

As for the whole eating wild animals thing being more ethical - it may well be, but i don't have enough knowledge (or interest, frankly) to make an informed comment.
I do think it's more complicated than the argument that it's ok because they're not factory farmed and presumably have a better life.
That may be true, but i have a friend who was vegetarian, but eats kangaroo meat - claiming that he's an "ethical meat eater".
My understanding of the kangaroo meat industry is that it's pretty brutal and there is a lot of unnecessary cruelty, especially if there are any joeys (baby kangaroos) in the mother's pouch - hunters pull them out of the dead mother's pouch an kill them.

Well when I was talking about eating wild animals, I'm not talking about a wild animal harvesting industry. I'm talking about you, personally, going out and taking down a single animal in a humane fashion. Not murdering its babies, causing it undue suffering, etc. I'm saying this is better even than eating meat from animals raised on a farm who are free range, etc, not just that it's better than factory farming. Said animal is participating in the ecosystem, and so are you. Rather than a wolf or something eating that animal, you're eating it. In fact taking out a deer with a gun is probably significantly less traumatic to it than being chased down and eaten, and killed in a likely painful and certainly terrifying manner.

Trophy hunting, on the other hand, is reprehensible IMO.

I mean - there are so many stereotypes about vegans being preachy and judgemental, but in my experience that's pretty common from meat-eaters when talking (down) to vegans, which is kind of ironic

Yeah, once I got out into the world I started to see that if one side of the fence or the other is more abusive, I definitely notice that as a whole, a lot of meat eaters seem quite threatened by non-meat eaters and will take opportunities to try to ridicule them. Of course discounting groups like PETA who have gone off the rails.

 

[spacejunk]

Well when I was talking about eating wild animals, I'm not talking about a wild animal harvesting industry. I'm talking about you, personally, going out and taking down a single animal in a humane fashion. Not murdering its babies, causing it undue suffering, etc. I'm saying this is better even than eating meat from animals raised on a farm who are free range, etc, not just that it's better than factory farming. Said animal is participating in the ecosystem, and so are you. Rather than a wolf or something eating that animal, you're eating it. In fact taking out a deer with a gun is probably significantly less traumatic to it than being chased down and eaten, and killed in a likely painful and certainly terrifying manner.

yeah, when you put it that way, you're obviously right. i guess i'm very far removed from the culture of hunting animals for food, so i only have an abstract understanding of the realities of hunting, and absolutely no idea of the finer details.
perhaps my views are also skewed by the fact hat i live in australia where lots of our native wildlife are endangered and at risk of extinction, kangaroos may be in abundance, but i still think of native australian creatures as kind of sacred (to me) as well as fragile and threatened by introduced animals (especially foxes and cats) - so i can't even begin to understand hunting culture - it's totally foreign to me; besides fishing, i don't know anyone that eats shit that they kill in the wild.
closest i ever got was picking magic mushrooms in the forest.

i assume that the meat is only one the things that drives a lot of hunters though, right?
i know some people hunt to feed their families and whatnot, but is it fair to say that the act of shooting animals is a big motivation for a lot of people, and all the rest of it?

i suppose an agonising death for a deer shot in the forest probably morally preferable to the lifetime of suffering factory farmed animals have to endure.
but i guess - as i was prattling on about in my previous post -i sometimes wonder if PETA are some kind of meat industry funded campaign to discredit animal liberation movements.
i'm kidding... but weirder things have happened.

 

[Foreigner]

My favourite book about this is "The Compassionate Hunter" by Miles Olson

 

[Xorkoth]

i assume that the meat is only one the things that drives a lot of hunters though, right?
i know some people hunt to feed their families and whatnot, but is it fair to say that the act of shooting animals is a big motivation for a lot of people, and all the rest of it?

I think it depends entirely on the individual (well obviously 8)). Some people hunt for food, and some hunt for sport. Hunting for sport I think is bullshit, I mean if you enjoy hunting but use the animal and don't take more than you need, cool, but to hunt just to mount some heads or whatever is pretty fucked up. The height of that is the rich "hunters" who are allowed to go kill majestic megafauna in African parks designed for the purpose, from the back of a jeep, so they can be like damn I'm so tough, check out this rhino head I got on my wall, yet, I shot that.

But anyway, I would venture to guess that most hunters enjoy the thrill of the hunt. I've never hunted (I've fished plenty though), but I have family and friends and coworkers who do it, either yearly or from time to time. I think people enjoy being the predator, tracking prey, the satisfaction of taking it down and knowing you've got a hundred pounds of venison for the year or whatever. I don't see this as wrong, in fact I can understand the appeal. Humans are predators, from an evolutionary perspective... we are great long-distance runners because we used to get together in groups and chase an animal until it got tired and then kill it. Meat was a very important part of our evolutionary path, in fact I was reading a National Geographic article years ago about how once we began to see evidence of fire as a tool in early human settlements, we began to find cooked meat evidence as well as an explosion in brain growth. It seems likely that this was because as hunter/gatherers, it would have been very difficult to get enough protein, calories and certain nutrients without eating meat. Of course, today we have a global economy and we can go buy whatever food we want, so it's entirely possible to get all your nutrition without meat. But way back then, you were stuck with what was in your environment. The point of that tangent is that I think it's only natural people would find an ingrained thrill in hunting.

i sometimes wonder if PETA are some kind of meat industry funded campaign to discredit animal liberation movements.
i'm kidding... but weirder things have happened.

Heh, stranger things have happened... though I highly doubt it's true.

 

[belligerent drunk]

But it's also why i think it is pretty pointless to try to convert people to your eating habits. I fucking love food, and get a lot of pleasure from cooking and eating good stuff, and it can be a good to discuss with people who are interested or on a similar wavelength - but it's pretty tedious discussing these things with people who don't really get it.

The "converting" part really annoys me. Eating is a very emotional and subjective experience even if we don't admit it. Trying to persuade someone to change their eating habits because of your own beliefs is not only silly, but also rude. I will gladly discuss the environmental aspects of the meat industry, and maybe the ethical ones too. But that's different from someone trying to convince me to eat a fatty pork OR consume a meal with no meat in it if I want to at that moment. So yeah, I second your statement of:

But i don't see any reason to contradict my friend - what he puts into his body (and why) is his business, not mine.
If he's ok with what he eats, then so am i - because really, i don't care.

As for the OP, it doesn't matter who "pulled the trigger" so to speak in order for your meat to get on your plate. If you're against violence towards animals, then buying and eating meat from the store is hypocritical. If you support one way of killing animals (raw hunting for food), but not the other (factory farming), then you have to make the distinction clear and follow it whenever you buy meat should you have the need to. Factory animals wouldn't be there if the consumer wasn't at the store ready to buy their meat.

If you're worried about nutrition while being vegan, you should just research plant-based diets more. It is not impossible to eat healthy by eating plants and shrooms, you just have to research it. And it may cost you a tad more.

 

[Foreigner]

I don't think it's hypocritical to be against meat eating but then eat meat, or be against killing animals but then buy meat. It's possible to be of two minds about it. You might have to do it but not like it. I would fall into that category. I wish I didn't have to eat meat, but it's a protein source I can't live without -- not even out of pleasure, but nutritional necessity. I was a vegetarian for 8 years and despite my best efforts I had health problems. The day I started eating meat again I could feel major life force returning to my body. Ideologically vegetarianism makes sense to me, but my body has other ideas.

That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the plight of animals, the way some suffer for our consumption. I try to minimize it with at least looking at where the meat comes from. Grass red pasture raised is usually more ethical. I have no problem with humans killing animals, if it's done cleanly and ethically. It's part of the cycle of life. Even hunting... it's part of conservation. Humans have messed up the ecological balance so much that we need human hunters to keep populations under control. Plus wild game is awesome -- the best meat ever.

 

[Yourbaker]

I am neither offended by vegans vegetarians or carnivores and I make food for all of them. My summer job includes the task of building meals for firefighters working on wildfires in BC and providing enough calories to sustain them in extreme situations.

Packing a lunch that includes over 2000 calories without meat is a minor challenge, doing it without meat, eggs or dairy is more challenging but still not impossible. The new food fear of gluten however has pushed it into a difficult zone as we now have people expressing a gluten free vegan lifestyle while asking for bagged lunches that have enough nutritional value to sustain them in a high energy job.

This last job I encountered my first carnivore that requested meat only gluten free lunches. Easy enough to do but over the last five years of doing this kind of work the number of "special needs" has gone from about 5% (allergies to nuts and dairy mostly) up to 20%. Most of these are categorized under religious as few people are actually allergic to the food. Regardless of the reasons more effort is required to provide wishes and wants vs needs. The end result is those people without food fears or allergies don't get as good a meal as they could because of the amount of energy that now is being placed on special needs. Secondly the cost of maintaining all these food fears is higher as more time is required and most staff that have better training.

Currently we hire more people with vegan and vegetarian backgrounds, including chefs, it's simply easier to have people who think the same way as the people we are catering too. The difficulty is that we are paid by government funds that are stretched thin already by a pile of well meaning but highly inefficient government employees.

It isn't uncommon to have multiple people who have listed themselves as vegan or vegetarian eat meat for their evening meal as their job is truly difficult and burning 6000 plus calories a day on salad just doesn't cut it. Some struggle with this as we don't have the budget to bring both great food and great vegan food while maintaining the other religious food beliefs for everyone. When you add to this the reality that we have 2 hours to feed 500 people from what amounts to a glorified food truck in the middle of nowhere the task is even more challenging.

I really appreciate those people that see food as fuel for their body and when possible they make ethical choices but also realize beyond health concerns like allergies sometimes you can't have everything your way and to be able to compromise for the sake of the humans dealing with their fears for them.

Some firefighters bring their own food and just pick a few items from the food we provide, for these people I am much more willing to spend time on their needs because whether they are omnivore, carnivore or herbervores they realize it's not always about them.

At the end of the day, beyond salt, everything we eat was or is living (we eat vegetables while they are alive, the part we eat is the seed or young sometimes the leaf) everything has the same DNA connection to us so it's easy to create ethical food fears. If you consider the animal you are eating may have lived a year or two already before becoming food at least it had a chance at life unlike the seeds that we eat preventing them from growing in the first place.as humans we will eat food and it will die for us to do that, choose your food with the consideration of how it lived.

 

[swilow]

^Interesting post there.

 

[RedRum OG]

Wow, thanks for all the replies, guys. Lot to think about. Im glad most of you generally agree.

Packing a lunch that includes over 2000 calories without meat is a minor challenge, doing it without meat, eggs or dairy is more challenging but still not impossible. The new food fear of gluten however has pushed it into a difficult zone as we now have people expressing a gluten free vegan lifestyle while asking for bagged lunches that have enough nutritional value to sustain them in a high energy job.

Currently we hire more people with vegan and vegetarian backgrounds, including chefs, it's simply easier to have people who think the same way as the people we are catering too. The difficulty is that we are paid by government funds that are stretched thin already by a pile of well meaning but highly inefficient government employees.

It isn't uncommon to have multiple people who have listed themselves as vegan or vegetarian eat meat for their evening meal as their job is truly difficult and burning 6000 plus calories a day on salad just doesn't cut it. Some struggle with this as we don't have the budget to bring both great food and great vegan food while maintaining the other religious food beliefs for everyone. When you add to this the reality that we have 2 hours to feed 500 people from what amounts to a glorified food truck in the middle of nowhere the task is even more challenging. .

I agree it's very hard to get a lot of calories as a vegan/vegetarian. Certain parts of the year I eat at least 4500-5000 calories per day for bodybuilding, and it can be tough as a vegetarian, without eating a lot of processed foods to save on time. I get it done, but it's very tiring. I can't imagine how vegans do it.


The gluten free thing annoys the heck out of me. I work in a restaurant too and based on statistics, there is no way more than 10% of people who order it really need it, and it's a pain to make. I also work with meat a lot as a vegetarian, which makes me feel like a hypocrite, even though I don't consume it. It's like "how responsible are heroin dealers for addiction?"... Kind of a complicated subject.

 

[Xorkoth]

The gluten free thing annoys me too. That said I just went gluten free a few months ago, and it's not because it's a fad or because I'm celiac or anything. I hated doing it, but I have psoriasis really badly and it was starting to get into my joints, and my doctor said to try removing gluten and dairy to reduce inflammation. It very quickly started to help a lot, and my skin is slowly clearing up (after 18 years of slowly getting worse) and my joints feel fine. I really miss bread though, and cheese.

In my town there are a lot of people who are like, OMG I can't have gluten, it's evil. A friend of mine is even like, cheese is a gluten, this and that are glutens. Like he associates anything he considers bad as "a gluten". Just the movie "this is the end" where Seth Rogen says exactly the same thing.

 

[JessFR]

They've done studies on people with gluten intolerance. Once you lie about what foods do and don't have gluten they start imagining symptoms where there's no gluten, and showing no symptoms when there is. Whatever they happen to imagine. It's mostly bs.

 

[swilow]

Placebo effect is well known.

I used to feel high before I shot up as I prepping the shot. Just that feeling of reward and focus and knowing the solution is at hand prompted an opiate like slight sedation and dopamine ish euphoria. The shot was the icing.

I can barely even talk about injecting opiates and it's been years since I did it. I guess you never forget.

 

[belligerent drunk]

You used to IV opioids? Never knew nor imagined that.

@Jess: yes, placebo and hypochondria are very real things. That's why we do double-blind studies. Human bias knows no bounds.

 

[swilow]

^Years ago, like 8 years in the dark past. And really only for a relatively brief time but with pretty disastrous health consequences.

Are there any good explanations for the placebo effect?