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Does free will exist?

Delta-9-THC

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Are we just organic machines, our only purpose to survive and reproduce, driven on by our pursuit of enjoyable stimulation and our aversion to pain, hunger, etc?

I wonder if our experience of knowing why we make decisions leads us to believe that we choose them.

Discuss.
 
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Freewill exists, and so does
Pre-destination, and no they so NOT contradict one another...

We had a thread on this not too long ago. At the time I was travelling and not posting alot and did not get to stress some points on this subject.

If G-D did not want to imbue us with Freewill HE would have made Bread Trees. Instead he made yeast, water, wheat and wood. With these things, using our Freeweill we partner with G-D in the act of Creation.

Predestination exists because G-D is THE intellect. HE sees all. Our Freeweill is expressed through our daily choices, but our ultimate existence is predetermined from the dawn of Creation, when ALL souls were created.

As one builds, apparent dichotimies arise and without the foundation (non-Jews lacking it) I might well be talking about physics.
 
Your answer rests on the fact that we assume god exists. For me, the closest definition of god that makes sense is the universe or better yet, all of existence, IS god. Thus we are god becoming aware of itself.

If science is correct in determining that there was a big bang or some kind of "birth" of our universe than from this initial action, if we had complete knowledge of natural laws and properties of this universe and the computing power to do so, we could theoretically simulate every physical action in the chain events that follows this big bang. From this we could predict anything and everything that will happen within the life of this universe, whether it be finite or infinite. Including any of your or my actions, decisions, and thoughts.

Our bodies are made of matter and energy just like anything else, although the interactions and mechanisms within our mind that determines our thoughts and actions are extremely complex and sophisticated.
 
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How would a construction of physical parameters be able to defy a set of laws which determine changes of constituent quanta?
 
There's at least one thread that's already discussing this...

In the other one I posited my "free won't" idea.

Despite the illusion of constant free will, I think we're largely on autopilot; the huge amount of unconscious processing that goes into each simple 'decision' we make seems to support this. We do seem to be able to sporadically interject and arrest otherwise automatic processes e.g. stories of people in India learning to control all sorts of autonomic functions
 
G-D sounds like an STD. That or some kind of High Explosive.

I think freewill, at the very least, is the ability to think about stuff you did in the past that might have been an unthinking reaction and modify your behaviour in the future. It's not always possibly to exert freewill instantaneously (famously with the experiment with the button and light where however hard you try to choose to press the button before the light lights up, the light always lights up first as if it knows you are going to press the button before you do) but you can certainly think about the light and the button and then choose to stop pressing it or leave the room or something else.

Another analogy might be when you are driving a car. You don't make conscious decisions about every single action you take (unless you just passed your test) but you make a conscious decision as to where you are going, which you can change depending on your knowledge of the traffic ahead, whilst at the same time driving 'on automatic' reactions naturally as you've taught yourself without thinking consciously about it too hard.

I think that at the very least our experience of past events allows us to exercise our freewill in regards to future events, if we think about it ahead of time. I don't think it is an illusion - i think the illusion is that freewill happens instantaneously magically inside your brain where your soul is all the time and without error, freewill is imperfect and requires effort and forethought.

Papa said:
Despite the illusion of constant free will, I think we're largely on autopilot; the huge amount of unconscious processing that goes into each simple 'decision' we make seems to support this. We do seem to be able to sporadically interject and arrest otherwise automatic processes e.g. stories of people in India learning to control all sorts of autonomic functions

That's kind of what i was getting at with my car driving example. I would disagree with the idea that freewill is usually absent - i think that when i'm driving my car (or whatever) my freewill is disconnected and i'm usually daydreaming or planning something unrelated to whatever the real world task i am performing with the illusion of freewill is. Maybe some people do just sit there and drive and think about nothing.

Delta-9-THC said:
Are we just organic machines, our only purpose to survive and reproduce, driven on by our pursuit of enjoyable stimulation and our aversion to pain, hunger, etc?

This is a false choice. We can be both organic machines driven by hunger, survival, reproduction etc. and also posses the ability of freewill. The initial unthinking reaction driven by hunger might be to steal the food, the conscious free will decision after thinking about it for a while might be to go hungry (either due to morals or the risk of getting caught - either way free will).

Delta-9-THC said:
If science is correct in determining that there was a big bang or some kind of "birth" of our universe than from this initial action, if we had complete knowledge of natural laws and properties of this universe and the computing power to do so, we could theoretically simulate every physical action in the chain events that follows this big bang. From this we could predict anything and everything that will happen within the life of this universe, whether it be finite or infinite. Including any of your or my actions, decisions, and thoughts.

That was held to be true by scientists up until the discovery of quantum physics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Quantum physics and quantum uncertainty may seem like obscure scientific theories but they are real and have implications in the real world. The reason the hard drive in your computer isn't bigger (in terms of gigabites) than it is is that there is a limit - once they get down to an electron or two for each bit there is a chance they'll start randomly flipping due to quantum instability and your data gets shuffled about. The reason hard drives keep getting bigger anyway is that the scientists/technologists keep finding loopholes and other ways round this fundamental limit (like storing the data parallel instead of in series or was it the other way round?)
 
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That's kind of what i was getting at with my car driving example. I would disagree with the idea that freewill is usually absent - i think that when i'm driving my car (or whatever) my freewill is disconnected and i'm usually daydreaming or planning something unrelated to whatever the real world task i am performing with the illusion of freewill is. Maybe some people do just sit there and drive and think about nothing.

Awareness of an action doesn't necessarily equate with agency over that action. Isn't it possible that what appears as a free decision to drive to the grocery store is in actuality almost a complete product of unconscious processes e.g. hunger, social needs, etc.? And what appears as a conscious decision before the fact is really just a conscious explanation after it?

Unconscious actions are clearly not free choices. But conscious actions don't need to be free either. In a trivial sense at least, *all* actions, even crystal-clear paragons of decisive-thinking are un-free in some ways e.g. bound by physical laws, provenance, etc...
 
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Isn't it possible that what appears as a free decision to drive to the grocery store is in actuality almost a complete product of unconscious processes e.g. hunger, social needs, etc.? And what appears as a conscious decision before the fact is really just a conscious explanation after it?

I wouldn't bother driving to the grocery store if i didn't need to eat so in one respect it is certainly true that the 'decision' to drive to the grocery store is made for you by the necessity to eat.

However i eat every day but i consciously plan when i am going to drive to the grocery store for greatest convenience on a weekly basis. I don't leave it until there is no food in the house and i am forced by hunger and survival to get food.

So in this example i would say that driving to the grocery store to get food seems like a non freewill decision because you have to do it, but it can involve free will in that you can choose to go at your convenience, which store, what you buy etc.

I would like to hear a non free will based explanation for political prisoners who go on hunger strikes due to ideological reasons.

Also in terms of conscious explanations for unconscious events occuring after those events - it would make sense to me that the 'conscious' mind is part of your brain. It doesn't work by magic or instantaneously. Therefore it would make sense that many of the brain processes that go into creating self awareness and free will are going to occur before you experience the awareness or exercise the free will. So in a very real sense 'stuff' is happening in your head before you get to the point where you exercise free will but that doesn't necessarily mean free will is an illusion. It comes back to the idea of Benjamin Libet and the button and light experiment i linked to earlier. The light doesn't preempt your freewill, it just occurs simultaneously with one of the processes that leads up to your free choice to press the button.
 
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Are we just organic machines, our only purpose to survive and reproduce, driven on by our pursuit of enjoyable stimulation and our aversion to pain, hunger, etc?

I wonder if our experience of knowing why we make decisions leads us to believe that we choose them.

Discuss.

ohhh shit, lets hope a war doesn't break out!!
 
So in this example i would say that driving to the grocery store to get food seems like a non freewill decision because you have to do it, but it can involve free will in that you can choose to go at your convenience, which store, what you buy etc.

Well, for the grocery trip, isn't it also possible that the most convenient time, the store, the groceries you buy are all just clockwork calculations maximizing some neural variable? I don't see any reason that these are free choices beyond the fact that they appear to be free. And it's already established that this appearance can be illusory.

I mean, couldn't you have a (highly complex) non-conscious clockword android who behaves like we do? I don't see the case for free will (other than it perceptually appears that way).
 
Well, for the grocery trip, isn't it also possible that the most convenient time, the store, the groceries you buy are all just clockwork calculations maximizing some neural variable? I don't see any reason that these are free choices beyond the fact that they appear to be free.

With the exception of the word 'clockwork' (too deterministic - quantum effects seem quite likely with things as small as neurons and neurotransmitters) I'd pretty much agree with most of that.

Surely when the neural structure of my brain is functioning properly and weighing the various pros and cons of when to go get those groceries and then comes to a decision, that is my will acting freely?

If not, why not? What is your definition of free will? How much more free than my definition of freedom could you be? Feel free to use the groceries example or not.

I mean, couldn't you have a (highly complex) non-conscious clockword android who behaves like we do? I don't see the case for free will (other than it perceptually appears that way).

Possibly. Even if it wasn't perfect you might be able to fool someone for a while. I think this is where an equivelent of 'I think therefore i am' comes into play - whilst it might be possible to fool other people that the android had free will, you couldn't fool the android itself that it had free will as there would be nothing mental to fool.
 
What is your definition of free will?

Heh heh, I don't know. What's yours? :)

"Free", "will", and "free will" are so ill-defined that their semantics are usually pretty central to how debates about free will play out. I'll think about it more tonight, but right now it's movie time...
 
rach' said:
Freewill exists, and so does
Pre-destination, and no they so NOT contradict one another...

This. :)
Also, the two may be reconciled secularly.

Mod note to OP:

If you feel altrustic, you could do a search for free will in the forum and archive and try to pose a sub-question that hasn't been before. :)

Papa said:
Heh heh, I don't know.

We need more of this.
Our reluctance to say so leads to persisting misunderstanding.

I'm as guilty of this one as the next guy. :)
 
^^^ saving me some time :)

i"m convinced that free will at its most basic level exists
ex: lost in space, without any factor influencing yourself, can you decide between 2 random options. yes

but in our lives, we are most of the time influenced to some degree by our experience, preferences and so on

one fact that seems sure however is that at quantum level, free "will" is common place
 
^ By quantum "will" do you just mean quantum "randomness"? I see your point, but I don't think the gap between 'non-deterministic' and 'will' should be jumped so quickly...
 
We exercise both free will as well as we are run deterministicly. How interesting as well as boring it would have been, if we could conrol everything that happens in our life and universe!
In the same way, that if all was deterministic! We would be total victims to our universal fate-that was predetermant for us.
 
I find freewill to be a nonexistant entity if we introduce the idea of God and the consequence of eternal punishment for certain actions. It's like pointing a gun at someone's head and telling them what they can and can't do to stay alive, not much of a choice is it? The notion of God is in effect a celestial dictatorship.

Regarding freewill in secular society, no I don't believe we have that either as the very notion of civilisation is a contract to behave within certain bounds otherwise there could be capital punishment if the behaviour is deemed too severe. I'd say we are more free in a secular society than a religious/God driven society, but neither has a complete freewill.
 
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