methamaniac
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Real quick just jot down observations and experiments that show proof of evolution.
Shouldn't take a sec......
Shouldn't take a sec......
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Does believing in Evolution say a lot about you
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methamaniac
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While were waiting on brainiac to give us list of observations and experiments we can test
(Trust me we'll probably be dead before he/she makes a list)
Lets play a little game of what evolved first.
( something to sleep on)
What evolved first?
The stomach--that digests food
The mouth--that ingests food
or your colon- that gets rid of the food
(freebie alert: I'm not requiring you to explain all the parts that make up these parts)
Seems we got the old chicken/egg/chicken shit combo going on with this one
(Trust me we'll probably be dead before he/she makes a list)
Lets play a little game of what evolved first.
( something to sleep on)
What evolved first?
The stomach--that digests food
The mouth--that ingests food
or your colon- that gets rid of the food
(freebie alert: I'm not requiring you to explain all the parts that make up these parts)
Seems we got the old chicken/egg/chicken shit combo going on with this one
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perpetualdawn
Bluelighter
If you want an answer to how the digestive tract evolved, you're not going to get it here because it takes a very long time to explain. But if you take a university level introductory biology class, you can learn about all the tiny incremental steps that happened to give us our current complex digestive tract. It's well understood and is an amazing story. These tiny steps happened over millions or billions of years, beginning with tiny sea creatures that had only one hole that was basically their bum and their mouth, and whose ancestors include us humans.
swilow
Bluelight Crew
methamaniac said:
But the whole chicken/egg statement is a simplification that doesn't really hold up. Look at marsupials, who seem to form an intermediate between egg-layers and mammals. Evolution does not indicate that at any time either a chicken or an egg spontaneously appeared. Rather, a sequence of life-forms gradually developed into chickens that lay eggs. Maybe their ancestors were using spawning at some point before that, and even prior to that, asexual reproduction. Scientists believe that sexual reproduction appeared about 1.2 billion years ago, yet life had been in existence for almost 2 billion years already. This was before even the concept of egg, and well before chicken.
All life on earth is written using the same code, DNA, which certainly implies that we share some sort of shared ancestor. Plus the fact that humans share much of the exact same DNA with similar primates would imply that we emerged from the same source.
The existence of the modern Dog is ample proof for controlled evolution. Sure, it is catalysed by completely different forces to those that prevail over the natural world (arguably nonsensical word), but the progression and regression of traits in dogs, as selected by humans, hints to the fact that, if humans can induce these changes, why couldn't nature also do so? Bear in mind, modern dogs share DNA with ONLY the
The resistance of bacteria to antibiotics is an example of evolution in progress. If these traits are not evolving, using natural selective pressure, what is happening here? Why are they becoming resistant?
The existence of fossilised dinosaurs and modern birds, direct ancestors yet quite different. I don't know if the world got bigger, or they shrunk...
Food for thought
I don't think you have mentioned what it is you actually think about people with specific views....?
Foreigner
Bluelighter
I think the picture of evolution is actually far greater than human understanding, not less so. This is because it's impossible for us to understand all the variables involved. But as a general law of nature, it's obviously happening. You can see it with something simple like fruitflies. Whenever my home is infested with them, I clap my hands to squish them in the mid air. After about 1-2 generations, natural selection has enabled them to adapt to evade my hands so I can no longer clap to kill them, and have to upgrade to fly tape or spray. It's annoying. Anyway... micro-scale evolution is self-evident. The long-term trends, I dunno. They still have trouble making complete skeletal structures of dinosaurs, and I'm also yet to hear a convincing explanation about where humans came from. We still don't have a clear picture on our ancestral lineage, genetically speaking. I assume that the science is flawed by virtue of knowledge systems being inherently incomplete, but there's no denying the basic premise.
rickolasnice
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I was asleep,
I'm not going to play teacher for you, if you want to learn it's really not hard to find the information IF you bother to look..
Here's one of many experiments that observed evolution in a lab.
http://www.newscientist.com/article...olutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html#.VE9u0fmsVgg
It's clear from you ignorant* questions and ignorant* conclusions that, well.. you're ignorant*.
Here's a good place to start on working on that ignorance.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html
Start at the beginning.. and read slowly.
Here's a question for you..
Why is it we find a certain species in fossil records dated to a certain time and then at a point further in time we find a similar but different one, filling the same niche.. and then when we look at a point in time between those times, we find a species that is a cross between the two?
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/lines/IAtransitional.shtml
Every living thing that is and ever was and ever will be IS a transitional form between it's parents and it's offspring.. There never comes a point when offspring will be a different species to it's parent.. this takes generations.
I forget the place and species but there was (and still is) a species of lizard on an island.. as time went by the population spread around the coast, top to bottom, going both ways round.. Every so often a new sub species evolved, they could still mate and have fertile offspring with it's neighbours.. This happened about 6 - 8 times until the two final groups met at the bottom.. these two groups could not mate and have fertile offspring.. Hence, they had become two distinct species, with a very close and still very living relative.
Here's more evidence of evolution, just to get you going.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)
More observations of evolution.
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2014/10/23/anole-lizards-evolution-florida/
By the way evolution and the theory of evolution are different things.
Evolution is fact. We can see it happening, it's documented, etc etc. The theory of evolution is a theory on the mechanisms by which it works.. There's so much compelling evidence that for all intents and purposes it can also be considered fact.
Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it any less so.
*
As for the question in the OP, you can't tell a thing about someone by their belief in evolution.. in the UK it's accepted fact not just among outspoken atheists, but atheists, agnostics and theists alike.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/21/religion.topstories3
However; you can tell a lot about someone who believes in creationism. They are always religious.. and outspoken creationists are almost always Christian (Americans) or Jehovahs Witnesses.
As for you stomach evolution question, look up these papers:
=
Are you an American Christian, by any chance?
Or did you diesucking off ken ham waiting for my list?
I'm not going to play teacher for you, if you want to learn it's really not hard to find the information IF you bother to look..
Here's one of many experiments that observed evolution in a lab.
http://www.newscientist.com/article...olutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html#.VE9u0fmsVgg
It's clear from you ignorant* questions and ignorant* conclusions that, well.. you're ignorant*.
Here's a good place to start on working on that ignorance.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html
Start at the beginning.. and read slowly.
Here's a question for you..
Why is it we find a certain species in fossil records dated to a certain time and then at a point further in time we find a similar but different one, filling the same niche.. and then when we look at a point in time between those times, we find a species that is a cross between the two?
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/lines/IAtransitional.shtml
Every living thing that is and ever was and ever will be IS a transitional form between it's parents and it's offspring.. There never comes a point when offspring will be a different species to it's parent.. this takes generations.
I forget the place and species but there was (and still is) a species of lizard on an island.. as time went by the population spread around the coast, top to bottom, going both ways round.. Every so often a new sub species evolved, they could still mate and have fertile offspring with it's neighbours.. This happened about 6 - 8 times until the two final groups met at the bottom.. these two groups could not mate and have fertile offspring.. Hence, they had become two distinct species, with a very close and still very living relative.
Here's more evidence of evolution, just to get you going.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)
More observations of evolution.
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2014/10/23/anole-lizards-evolution-florida/
By the way evolution and the theory of evolution are different things.
Evolution is fact. We can see it happening, it's documented, etc etc. The theory of evolution is a theory on the mechanisms by which it works.. There's so much compelling evidence that for all intents and purposes it can also be considered fact.
Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it any less so.
*
As for the question in the OP, you can't tell a thing about someone by their belief in evolution.. in the UK it's accepted fact not just among outspoken atheists, but atheists, agnostics and theists alike.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/21/religion.topstories3
However; you can tell a lot about someone who believes in creationism. They are always religious.. and outspoken creationists are almost always Christian (Americans) or Jehovahs Witnesses.
As for you stomach evolution question, look up these papers:
NSFW:
=
Are you an American Christian, by any chance?
Or did you die
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methamaniac
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Voyage inside the cell: http://youtu.be/Ao9cVhwPg84
wow it seems logical paradox really gets evolutionist thinking.
And a couple of you seem to want to wage a verbal "jihad" to defend your faith.
Lets cool it down a bit.
And btw I took biology 1 and 2 as well as chemistry 1 and 2 for sciences in college, loved the once a week labs. Additionally I took probability and statistics, and business calculus.( some of you could use btw)
First of all, it is a an over simllification?
Lets see if your intelligent enough to figure this out. I didnt ask you how? I asked you what.
Nevertheless the how, the what should be the byproduct. OR are you saying they evolved together. (Huge can-o-worms there)
Nobody has gave me an answer. The answer set is one- this, that, this,or all- it is simple! ( do i need to help you with mathematics)
I purposely took it easy on you by not having you have to have all the mind boggling parts that have to be in place for the whole to function
Also, figured I would get the bacteria example. Its what you guys cling to.
After mutations they do what they have for supposed billions of years, and after antibiotics (which they dont know are artificial), they drift back to what they do best. They are still same species of bacteria, no new species(4.5 billion years and there jus now trying to elvolve?)
On the subject of DNA, I will not introduce irreducible complexity as I know you will not even address it rationally because of your Dogma.( if are rational: see bacteria flagellum---while where on subject of bacteria)
LOL That lizard is not evolving before our eyes.
It is expressing the code it ready has.
if I work out my my muscles and they get bigger am I evolving? ( by the way a salamander would have helped you better but you will have tk find which one on your own--i tell you the ending--- it fails too)
Ps copying and pasting some Wikipedia crap is lazy and weak especially when does zero for your premise---fail
I left a non bias link if you would like to educate yourself and see how astonishing the factory of a cell is on the micro level.
PS No takers on which came first? DNA or proteins?
And are you honest enough to answer my question of what came first above--mouth, stomach, colon, all?
Da- na--na --na--na--na... (final jeopardy theme)
Sorry if I missed something I will read posts again thoroughly.
EDIT: Did somebody with a straight face try to use the fruit fly experiment? They have been nuking them for decades and decades now, with a very fast reproductive cycle---still same old fruit flies--
really an embarrassment
wow it seems logical paradox really gets evolutionist thinking.
And a couple of you seem to want to wage a verbal "jihad" to defend your faith.
Lets cool it down a bit.
And btw I took biology 1 and 2 as well as chemistry 1 and 2 for sciences in college, loved the once a week labs. Additionally I took probability and statistics, and business calculus.( some of you could use btw)
First of all, it is a an over simllification?
Lets see if your intelligent enough to figure this out. I didnt ask you how? I asked you what.
Nevertheless the how, the what should be the byproduct. OR are you saying they evolved together. (Huge can-o-worms there)
Nobody has gave me an answer. The answer set is one- this, that, this,or all- it is simple! ( do i need to help you with mathematics)
I purposely took it easy on you by not having you have to have all the mind boggling parts that have to be in place for the whole to function
Also, figured I would get the bacteria example. Its what you guys cling to.
After mutations they do what they have for supposed billions of years, and after antibiotics (which they dont know are artificial), they drift back to what they do best. They are still same species of bacteria, no new species(4.5 billion years and there jus now trying to elvolve?)
On the subject of DNA, I will not introduce irreducible complexity as I know you will not even address it rationally because of your Dogma.( if are rational: see bacteria flagellum---while where on subject of bacteria)
LOL That lizard is not evolving before our eyes.
It is expressing the code it ready has.
if I work out my my muscles and they get bigger am I evolving? ( by the way a salamander would have helped you better but you will have tk find which one on your own--i tell you the ending--- it fails too)
Ps copying and pasting some Wikipedia crap is lazy and weak especially when does zero for your premise---fail
I left a non bias link if you would like to educate yourself and see how astonishing the factory of a cell is on the micro level.
PS No takers on which came first? DNA or proteins?
And are you honest enough to answer my question of what came first above--mouth, stomach, colon, all?
Da- na--na --na--na--na... (final jeopardy theme)
Sorry if I missed something I will read posts again thoroughly.
EDIT: Did somebody with a straight face try to use the fruit fly experiment? They have been nuking them for decades and decades now, with a very fast reproductive cycle---still same old fruit flies--
really an embarrassment
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rickolasnice
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Childs play compared to http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1...se-the-hidden-life-of-the-cell-720p-hdtv_tech
Not sure where the paradox is.
You started it.. brainiac.
Good for you..
One step at a time, mayor.. One step at a time. What evolved first? The iris or the lense? It does not go from fully functioning human like mouth to fully functioning digestive system to fully functioning anus.. yes they evolved along side eachother
Again you seem to be ignorant as to what the theory of evolution entails.. They have been evolving.. you know.. by survival of the fittest (defined by the ENVIRONMENT), ie, the strongest variant of the genome will inevitably survive generation after generaion while the weaker co;nfiguration will cease to exist. Bringing in an antibiotic is to force it to evolve to survive (as nature can and does do).. Their DNA is now different. No?
Really? How so? It's genome is different.
Wow..
And my links were biased, how?
And I don't know.. haven't looked into it but even if nobody knew, it doesn't mean shit.. it means we don't know yet, or we might never know, this, on the contrary to what you creationists believe, does not equal GOD.
OH NOS! YOU PROVED EVOLUTION WRONG (impossible because, like i pointed out, evolution is different to the theory of evolution)! YOU DESERVE A NOBEL PRIZE.
You missed a lot, btw..
Your argument comprises of nothing more than ignoring evidence while shouting "Yeah! But!" and then using God of the gaps as an attempt to rebuttal..
An almost equivalent imo would be refuting someones answer of 2 * 2 being 4 on the basis that they couldn't answer what 2 * 2 to the power of 56.4 is.. even when showing the person two sets of two beads and then putting them together.. counting them one by one for the benefit of the other.
How about you read the berkley link i provided.. Not going to? Surprise surprise.
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methamaniac
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Ok, your answer is all.
They evolved together.
Each for the benefit of other? Do you know what your saying?
ps never said your links were bias, I said I was giving non bias link so you wouldn't say I was being bias. That's why I kept it vanilla. There are much better videos for factory of cell
They evolved together.
Each for the benefit of other? Do you know what your saying?
ps never said your links were bias, I said I was giving non bias link so you wouldn't say I was being bias. That's why I kept it vanilla. There are much better videos for factory of cell
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rickolasnice
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And your answer is enough.
You cannot logically rebuttal any evidence provided.. So you cling to the unknown or not well understood (personal knowledge of my own) as proof of your claim. Again.. using God of the gaps.
Bravo.
Did you read those papers I recommended you look up or?
Didn't think so.
You cannot logically rebuttal any evidence provided.. So you cling to the unknown or not well understood (personal knowledge of my own) as proof of your claim. Again.. using God of the gaps.
Bravo.
Did you read those papers I recommended you look up or?
Didn't think so.
methamaniac
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So is your answers to my questions are either
I cant answer or
I wont answer
good answers....
I gladly read your links, but why cant you summarize and give forth your premise?
Got gaps? You mean logical paradox.
I am using logic
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rickolasnice
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No.. you're not. There is no logical paradox here.. Care to show me where it is?
I answered.. I said I don't know.. Does that therefore equate to God? No.
You are ignoring all evidence of evolution and the theory of evolution and trying to rebuttal by using god of the gaps.. Standard.
But here's an idea.. Early life with a mouth ate what it did.. Only being able to digest a small amount.. the gut the evolved to digest more of what was being eaten.. That variation of genome meant more energy from less food.. Ipto facto.. more likely to survive.
Phew that sure was hard coming up with a plausible hypothesis to your oh so impossible to answer question.
But.. as always when arguing with a creationist.. Information and evidence for evolution and even proving evolution is ignored..
Jolly good ol chap.
I answered.. I said I don't know.. Does that therefore equate to God? No.
You are ignoring all evidence of evolution and the theory of evolution and trying to rebuttal by using god of the gaps.. Standard.
But here's an idea.. Early life with a mouth ate what it did.. Only being able to digest a small amount.. the gut the evolved to digest more of what was being eaten.. That variation of genome meant more energy from less food.. Ipto facto.. more likely to survive.
Phew that sure was hard coming up with a plausible hypothesis to your oh so impossible to answer question.
But.. as always when arguing with a creationist.. Information and evidence for evolution and even proving evolution is ignored..
Jolly good ol chap.
perpetualdawn
Bluelighter
Methamaniac (and other creationists): I have a few questions for you:
Do you believe that humans have been able to breed plants and animals into different varieties ie. maize, or dogs? Or do you think a deity created those in their present form?
Do you understand how selection is used in agriculture to select the strongest, largest seeds, and that when these are planted in the following year, it tends to produce crops with bigger, stronger seeds?
Do you believe that humans have been able to breed plants and animals into different varieties ie. maize, or dogs? Or do you think a deity created those in their present form?
Do you understand how selection is used in agriculture to select the strongest, largest seeds, and that when these are planted in the following year, it tends to produce crops with bigger, stronger seeds?
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
^^Good post
Evolution is gloriously simple, really, it's just that it has, over billions of years, produced incredible complexity one tiny step at a time. Since you mentioned bacteria and antibiotics, we actually see antibiotics force evolution of bacteria all the time. In fact that's the very reason that using antibiotics too much is dangerous. Some of the bacteria survive and their successive generation will be resistant to or immune to that antibiotic. It has happened many times. This is literally evolution in action because their genome has changed as a result of an introduced challenge to their survival. This is something we can and do measure now that we are able to do genetic sequencing.
It's the same process that caused some bacteria to evolve into multi-celled creatures billions of years ago. Some of a population of bacteria, perhaps because they drifted to a separate physical location, were introduced to different threats, predatory strains of bacteria maybe, or some chemical in the environment as a result of volcanic gas, or any number of other things. Many of these bacteria would have been killed, but the ones most able to survive these new challenges would have survived, and over many generations, their particular qualities and genetic would pass on. Over a very large timespan, the fittest to survive accumulate slow changes that build upon one another. At some point a gene happens to turn on which causes the development of a light sensing protein or area on the body. This gradually turns into an actual eye over millions of years, as the creatures able to sense light, then shape, then color are better able to survive in their environments. It's natural selection.
We have even seen modern humans evolve from the fossils we have found of early modern humans. We have even seen humans evolve since medieval times: we have become substantially taller on average. If evolution didn't exist, we'd be the same now as we were then.
If you don't believe in evolution, then how do you explain the way things are? How do you explain how we have seen changes in species, including ourselves, over time? Was that god too? Did god guide our hands in breeding all the multitude of dog species we see from wolves? Just made us think we did it but really he was doing it all along? We SEE evolution in action. We USE it to alter species of plants and animals. It's concrete, if it didn't exist we couldn't have bred optimal species of crops or bred different dog breeds.
Evolution is gloriously simple, really, it's just that it has, over billions of years, produced incredible complexity one tiny step at a time. Since you mentioned bacteria and antibiotics, we actually see antibiotics force evolution of bacteria all the time. In fact that's the very reason that using antibiotics too much is dangerous. Some of the bacteria survive and their successive generation will be resistant to or immune to that antibiotic. It has happened many times. This is literally evolution in action because their genome has changed as a result of an introduced challenge to their survival. This is something we can and do measure now that we are able to do genetic sequencing.
It's the same process that caused some bacteria to evolve into multi-celled creatures billions of years ago. Some of a population of bacteria, perhaps because they drifted to a separate physical location, were introduced to different threats, predatory strains of bacteria maybe, or some chemical in the environment as a result of volcanic gas, or any number of other things. Many of these bacteria would have been killed, but the ones most able to survive these new challenges would have survived, and over many generations, their particular qualities and genetic would pass on. Over a very large timespan, the fittest to survive accumulate slow changes that build upon one another. At some point a gene happens to turn on which causes the development of a light sensing protein or area on the body. This gradually turns into an actual eye over millions of years, as the creatures able to sense light, then shape, then color are better able to survive in their environments. It's natural selection.
We have even seen modern humans evolve from the fossils we have found of early modern humans. We have even seen humans evolve since medieval times: we have become substantially taller on average. If evolution didn't exist, we'd be the same now as we were then.
If you don't believe in evolution, then how do you explain the way things are? How do you explain how we have seen changes in species, including ourselves, over time? Was that god too? Did god guide our hands in breeding all the multitude of dog species we see from wolves? Just made us think we did it but really he was doing it all along? We SEE evolution in action. We USE it to alter species of plants and animals. It's concrete, if it didn't exist we couldn't have bred optimal species of crops or bred different dog breeds.
rickolasnice
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Silly me.. my hypothesis was to a question not asked..
What came first?
OK.. Let me hypothesise..
A cell was able to bring in outside sources of energy (food) through it's "skin"..
Harder, less penetrable skin meant more protection from unwanted external sources, but it also limited it's ability to bring in enough energy.
An opening, or a mouth, would have allowed it to have a more protective skin while being able to maximise intake of energy (food).
Millions of years, replications and offspring later, both the cells responsible for digestion and the means of getting food to those cells evolved into a digestive system we could relate to.
Therefore.. GOD.
These incredibly simple "mouths -> gut" exist in some life forms today.
What came first?
OK.. Let me hypothesise..
A cell was able to bring in outside sources of energy (food) through it's "skin"..
Harder, less penetrable skin meant more protection from unwanted external sources, but it also limited it's ability to bring in enough energy.
An opening, or a mouth, would have allowed it to have a more protective skin while being able to maximise intake of energy (food).
Millions of years, replications and offspring later, both the cells responsible for digestion and the means of getting food to those cells evolved into a digestive system we could relate to.
Therefore.. GOD.
These incredibly simple "mouths -> gut" exist in some life forms today.
methamaniac
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RICO, First you say you dont know.
Then you attempt to answer by giving some half but explanation without even noticing what you stepped in. So do you know or not?
On paradoxes, see the chicken and egg is a paradox because you need chicken for egg but egg for chicken. I dont understand how to make this clearer.
Let me see, you need sperm to fertilize and egg butyou first need egg(fully formed) to have something to be fertalized. Which was first? Do you see a pattern?
Sorry if I not answering your questions fast enough, I'm debating more than one person
( winning I might add)
I will do best to get to them
Ps I Rico I never said that evolution not being true equates God. CLASSIC evolutionist dogmatic claim on your part.
My premise simply is evolution isnt true.
Then you attempt to answer by giving some half but explanation without even noticing what you stepped in. So do you know or not?
On paradoxes, see the chicken and egg is a paradox because you need chicken for egg but egg for chicken. I dont understand how to make this clearer.
Let me see, you need sperm to fertilize and egg butyou first need egg(fully formed) to have something to be fertalized. Which was first? Do you see a pattern?
Sorry if I not answering your questions fast enough, I'm debating more than one person
( winning I might add)
I will do best to get to them
Ps I Rico I never said that evolution not being true equates God. CLASSIC evolutionist dogmatic claim on your part.
My premise simply is evolution isnt true.
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methamaniac
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Perp,
You don't get to turn this back on me to have me explain my belief of questions because your theory fails. My premise on how it happens bears no weight on yours
fail
Ps, your example of seeds is like breeding slaves to get bigger stronger ones....still seeds and people
You really starting to sound like Darwin now
You don't get to turn this back on me to have me explain my belief of questions because your theory fails. My premise on how it happens bears no weight on yours
fail
Ps, your example of seeds is like breeding slaves to get bigger stronger ones....still seeds and people
You really starting to sound like Darwin now
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Got an answer for my post? Specifically about the evolution we have seen happen before our eyes? How do you explain that?
methamaniac
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X,
If evolution is so " gloriously simple" answer my questions above. DNA or proteins, egg or sperm
take a stance my friend
Do you if understand that mutations are almost always harmful. Just because a breakdown in code keeps something from dying dont make it more fit when threat is removed ie sickle cell anemia
Does a down syndrome baby become more "fit"
If evolution is so " gloriously simple" answer my questions above. DNA or proteins, egg or sperm
take a stance my friend
Do you if understand that mutations are almost always harmful. Just because a breakdown in code keeps something from dying dont make it more fit when threat is removed ie sickle cell anemia
Does a down syndrome baby become more "fit"
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