Opioids does anyone else think opiates have other health benefits besides just pain relief

[deficiT]

Waaaahhh I want some now, why did I click on this thread while going through benzo withdrawl and like opioids lol

Sorry dude :/ bummer. I know how cravings can be. Good luck in your wd

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I think everyone else pretty much nailed everything.

Opioids use to be treatment for mental illness back in the day. They can help bring down a psychosis, relieve anxiety, relieve depression (with or without physical pain) and even stop somebody who is suicidal.

I found a variety of them excellent for me in all those regards, some better than others. It's unfortunate they're so highly stigmatized. An opioid dependence is a hell of a trade off when you deal with those kinds of issues, provided you have a steady supply. Otherwise withdrawal will just exacerbate it.

Plus opioids are a hell of a lot better on your body & organs than say... adderall.. or alcohol.. or shit like antipsychotics. Yet here we are, still living in the age of prohibition. You can thank endless propaganda and myths for that one. Now you're lucky if you can get an opioid even if you're in severe pain. Can't have people feeling good or treating their ailments with a cheap, easy medicine, now can we?

I found heroin (yes, heroin) highly therapeutic. Most would think I'm crazy and they're entitled to their opinion, just as I should be entitled to take whatever I want if it makes me feel normal & isn't hurting anyone else. But I digress.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Opiods are rather well known by many for their anti-depressant qualities, for sure, which has much to do with their MOA. But, there is no getting around the physical dependence aspect of using them regularly and the pending nightmare that will eventually be presented to you if you use them regularly. So regardless of their perceived utility, it becomes a risk-reward equation, like anything else. Working with people suffering with issues related to opiate use, and knowing that getting dependant on them leaves no one unscathed, I would always recommend to folks that avoiding them is a far better option. I understand the desire to diminish depressive symptoms, but again, a cost-benefit analysis demonstrates the rather significant risks associated with using opiates for such relief. In the end, it becomes about supply, for example. At some point, you will be faced with having no access or reduced access to such compounds, which is when the nightmare really begins in earnest. There is no such thing as a lifetime supply, of course. That is just a fantasy.

The same could be said about SSRI's, benzos, gabaergics, etc... which all cause dependence and are handed out like candy. What will people do when they can't get their zoloft and xanax? Or their baclofen & pregablin? Hell even blood pressure meds can cause a discontinuation syndrome. Withdrawal from gabaergic drugs can also be deadly. The only thing really stopping people from having access to them is prohibition. Otherwise it would be no different than the hundreds of other dependence forming drugs on the market.

Can totally understand your sentiment though. I wouldn' t recommend anyone get hooked on opiates to treat their mental health, but it would be nice if that option could be there (other than just bupe or methadone) for people who already are opioid addicts/dependent. Having a dependence to opioids (as long as you have a supply) isn't too bad of a trade off versus living a depressed/suicidal life. Having that option might also keep somebody from self medicating with more hazardous substances, like alcohol & various other street drugs. At least for those who don't respond to SSRI's, like myself.

I've never understood why "feelings of well-being", "contentedness" and "euphoria" were demonized as unwanted side effects in our society. I think those states of mind can be very helpful to people who are severely depressed or going through trauma.

That reminds me, opioids are also good for combating addiction (lmao). Kinda joking but not really. Being on buprenorphine has kept me away from alcohol for 5 years. I've never had the desire to drink while on an opioid (while not on them is a different story tho). After my oldest sister died of liver failure from a life time of alcohol use and watching a friend go down that same path, I'd say you're more likely to keep your liver being on opioids long term than on alcohol. So sure, I may have swapped out addictions, but at least the one I have now isn't going to make my liver fail & I don't need a babysitter or some one to tell me the previous night's events all the time.

 

[deficiT]

The same could be said about SSRI's, benzos, gabaergics, etc... which all cause dependence and are handed out like candy. What will people do when they can't get their zoloft and xanax? Or their baclofen & pregablin? Hell even blood pressure meds can cause a discontinuation syndrome.

Can totally understand your sentiment though. I wouldn' t recommend anyone get hooked on opiates to treat their mental health, but it would be nice if that option could be there (other than just bupe or methadone) for people who already are opioid addicts/dependent. Having a dependence to opioids (as long as you have a supply) isn't too bad of a trade off versus living a depressed/suicidal life. Having that option might also keep somebody from self medicating with more hazardous substances, like alcohol & various other street drugs. At least for those who don't respond to SSRI's, like myself.

That reminds me, opioids are also good for combating addiction (lmao). Kinda joking but not really. Being on buprenorphine has kept me away from alcohol for 5 years. I've never had the desire to drink while on an opioid (while not on them is a different story tho). After my oldest sister died of liver failure from a life time of alcohol use and watching a friend go down that same path, I'd say you're more likely to keep your liver being on opioids long term than on alcohol. So sure, I may have swapped out addictions, but at least the one I have now isn't going to make my liver fail & I don't need a babysitter or some one to tell me the previous night's events all the time.

I pretty much agree with all of your points. Truthfully the only problems with opioid addiction are withdrawal, and the possibility of overdose. Otherwise they are pretty benign drugs. I spent two years of my life using heroin nasally every day. I got up, went to work, and lived a normal life. Not saying I was healthy, but I didn't engage in any destructive behaviors (beyond spending too much money), and I didn't have any mental health issues due to my addiction, like can happen with methamphetamine for example.

Opioids are very unfairly stigmatized, and ironically it's this stigma and prohibition that makes them so much more dangerous. If people just had access to pharmaceutical grade morphine/oxycodone/etc there would be a lot less overdose deaths.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I pretty much agree with all of your points. Truthfully the only problems with opioid addiction are withdrawal, and the possibility of overdose. Otherwise they are pretty benign drugs. I spent two years of my life using heroin nasally every day. I got up, went to work, and lived a normal life. Not saying I was healthy, but I didn't engage in any destructive behaviors (beyond spending too much money), and I didn't have any mental health issues due to my addiction, like can happen with methamphetamine for example.

Opioids are very unfairly stigmatized, and ironically it's this stigma and prohibition that makes them so much more dangerous. If people just had access to pharmaceutical grade morphine/oxycodone/etc there would be a lot less overdose deaths.

I couldn't agree more!!!

We wouldn't have people dying from fentanyl and it's analogues right now if it weren't for prohibition.

I had friends who had been heroin addicts since the 80's and were still alive and kicking, all the way up until around 2017-present, when they were given fentanyl. Then they finally overdosed and died. Not saying there's no risks of overdose with heroin, but from my personal experience, when it comes to pure diacetylmorphine, the risk has been largely exaggerated. Especially for some one who already has a tolerance & knows their limits.

Some countries have already legalized them and allowed addicts to use them. They discovered that overdoses, crimes and even new addiction rates plummeted. Why we are still in a drug war in the US, I have no idea, but it certainly isn't to "protect" anybody.

I have been and always will be highly vocal around this topic. Opioids in the grand scheme of things have high medicinal value and less toxicity than many other common things found in our society. Always good to see another like minded person who know's what's up!

Cheers deficiT!

 

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

find that physical exercise helps more than anything else, including drugs

Excercise makes me worse the next day, I don't get anything for it unless I self medicate as antidepressants give me side effects and my doctors say painkillers don't work for fibromyalgia

 

[polarthedog]

Excercise makes me worse the next day, I don't get anything for it unless I self medicate as antidepressants give me side effects and my doctors say painkillers don't work for fibromyalgia

i use kratom, it really helps as well, have you tried that?

gabapentin/lyrica would probably work well as well

 

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

i use kratom, it really helps as well, have you tried that?

Yes tried it 2 different types of red vien made me feel like I'd drank to much coffee, no pain relief

gabapentin/lyrica would probably work well as well

I was bad on pregabalin, turned me into a different person so didn't stay on it long, I can't touch the stuff again and gabapentin made my insomnia worse only took it few times

I legit get side effects on so many things, I'm tried almost all antidepressants for my anxiety, sleep, on off depression etc so already knew I couldn't use them for the fibromyalgia, although I tried amitriptyline yet again and had nightmares and really bad cotton mouth so once I finally fell asleep I'd wake up 20-30 times for water and getting woke with nightmares, not worth the bit of relief I had for fibromyalgia pain, that's how bad side effects are I'm littrally not allowed them, my doctors won't let me have any antidepressants after I got serotonin syndrome again

Pain clinic phone appointment next month

 

[polarthedog]

Yes tried it 2 different types of red vien made me feel like I'd drank to much coffee, no pain relief



I was bad on pregabalin, turned me into a different person so didn't stay on it long, I can't touch the stuff again and gabapentin made my insomnia worse only took it few times

I legit get side effects on so many things, I'm tried almost all antidepressants for my anxiety, sleep, on off depression etc so already knew I couldn't use them for the fibromyalgia, although I tried amitriptyline yet again and had nightmares and really bad cotton mouth so once I finally fell asleep I'd wake up 20-30 times for water and getting woke with nightmares, not worth the bit of relief I had for fibromyalgia pain, that's how bad side effects are I'm littrally not allowed them, my doctors won't let me have any antidepressants after I got serotonin syndrome again

Pain clinic phone appointment next month

that sucks, i really don't know what to tell you if all that didn't work

 

[Dextro .45]

Ketamine is such a valuable drug to have on hand. Blasting small lines were Sooo freaking Euphoric, happy drunk + dopamine release. In the wrong hands it can be dangerous, a 1,000 pound grizzly bear defending its territory could be rapidly turned into a drooling pile of useless jelly.

back before COVID…..Guvernment night club in Toronto, lots of Asian guys there, hi purity Ketamine was everywhere. On a medical standpoint it’s nearly invaluable, as an antidepressant, analgesic, disassociative anaesthetic

 

[polarthedog]

Ketamine is such a valuable drug to have on hand. Blasting small lines were Sooo freaking Euphoric, happy drunk + dopamine release. In the wrong hands it can be dangerous, a 1,000 pound grizzly bear defending its territory could be rapidly turned into a drooling pile of useless jelly.

back before COVID…..Guvernment night club in Toronto, lots of Asian guys there, hi purity Ketamine was everywhere. On a medical standpoint it’s nearly invaluable, as an antidepressant, analgesic, disassociative anaesthetic

Yes tried it 2 different types of red vien made me feel like I'd drank to much coffee, no pain relief



I was bad on pregabalin, turned me into a different person so didn't stay on it long, I can't touch the stuff again and gabapentin made my insomnia worse only took it few times

I legit get side effects on so many things, I'm tried almost all antidepressants for my anxiety, sleep, on off depression etc so already knew I couldn't use them for the fibromyalgia, although I tried amitriptyline yet again and had nightmares and really bad cotton mouth so once I finally fell asleep I'd wake up 20-30 times for water and getting woke with nightmares, not worth the bit of relief I had for fibromyalgia pain, that's how bad side effects are I'm littrally not allowed them, my doctors won't let me have any antidepressants after I got serotonin syndrome again

Pain clinic phone appointment next month

that made me remember, dxm works for me too, maybe you should try that?

 

[The Shadow Self]

For whatever it's worth, I am absolutely aware of the pros and cons of all the classes of drugs used to treat things like depression, and I am not saying that opiates could not be a better option than some drugs like SSRIs, but that would require a paradigm shift in the medical community which I would not expect to happen any time soon due to the radical demonization of opiates in general. So at this moment in time, you would be dependent on the black market for opiates which is precarious to say the least. Back in the 90s, on the heels of the Oxycontin crisis, you could get mass quantities of opiates.

Now, prescribers in ERs and clinics treat many patients like drug addicts and med seekers, which certainly can be true but is secondary to the opiate crisis in large part anyway. Getting opiates, even when indicated, is orders of magnitude more difficult than it was even a few years ago, and many doctors avoid prescribing them altogether, even in pain clinics. It has become too obvious of a liability issue for them, so opiates have become the hot potato of drugs in that world. I know because I happen to know many prescribers and have worked with them for many years. Benzos are a little easier to get by comparison, but I will tell you that in the future acquiring them will get increasingly more difficult. It is already happening out there, which again, I can speak to because I am in those places and had these discussions with MDs on many occasions.

Having said all that, I do know of at least one case in which a psychiatrist does prescribe hydrocodone to one patient, who was elder in years, and was resistant to all other interventions available over a long course of treatment, including ECT. One thing that I believe made a difference is that the person being prescribed the meds was a rather widely known artist who the prescriber treated for almost two decades, unsuccessfully, but after he discussed it ad nauseum with the prescriber he relented. This is an anomaly, but in that case, it was rather effective. So there's that...

 

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

that made me remember, dxm works for me too, maybe you should try that?

Tried it when I was on K tolerance break, well wasn't allowed it by orders of my ex and both times DXM gave me the shits, and when I say the shits I mean water, never ending water coming out my ass lol, it's full of sorbitol a laxative I do not know how people robo trip on that I really don't

 

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

lots of Asian guys there, hi purity Ketamine was everywhere. On a medical standpoint it’s nearly invaluable, as an antidepressant, analgesic, disassociative anaesthetic

Yep helps my pain actually, but if I do K and then go for a walk or something I don't realise I'm over doing it and wake up in fibro flare for days

 

[polarthedog]

Tried it when I was on K tolerance break, well wasn't allowed it by orders of my ex and both times DXM gave me the shits, and when I say the shits I mean water, never ending water coming out my ass lol, it's full of sorbitol a laxative I do not know how people robo trip on that I really don't

you got the wrong brand, theres brands without the stuff that makes you shit and puke everywhere

 

[Pickledlemons]

Bupe can be a pretty good antidepressant. Though I kind of doubt the long term effectiveness of any anti-depressant. Your body just pushes back and back until years later you are emotionally, right where you started.

 

[Pickledlemons]

For whatever it's worth, I am absolutely aware of the pros and cons of all the classes of drugs used to treat things like depression, and I am not saying that opiates could not be a better option than some drugs like SSRIs, but that would require a paradigm shift in the medical community which I would not expect to happen any time soon due to the radical demonization of opiates in general. So at this moment in time, you would be dependent on the black market for opiates which is precarious to say the least. Back in the 90s, on the heels of the Oxycontin crisis, you could get mass quantities of opiates.

Now, prescribers in ERs and clinics treat many patients like drug addicts and med seekers, which certainly can be true but is secondary to the opiate crisis in large part anyway. Getting opiates, even when indicated, is orders of magnitude more difficult than it was even a few years ago, and many doctors avoid prescribing them altogether, even in pain clinics. It has become too obvious of a liability issue for them, so opiates have become the hot potato of drugs in that world. I know because I happen to know many prescribers and have worked with them for many years. Benzos are a little easier to get by comparison, but I will tell you that in the future acquiring them will get increasingly more difficult. It is already happening out there, which again, I can speak to because I am in those places and had these discussions with MDs on many occasions.

Having said all that, I do know of at least one case in which a psychiatrist does prescribe hydrocodone to one patient, who was elder in years, and was resistant to all other interventions available over a long course of treatment, including ECT. One thing that I believe made a difference is that the person being prescribed the meds was a rather widely known artist who the prescriber treated for almost two decades, unsuccessfully, but after he discussed it ad nauseum with the prescriber he relented. This is an anomaly, but in that case, it was rather effective. So there's that...

Yeah good point. My dad got leukemia and shingles at the same time with pain so bad he couldn't get off the couch. And it tooks months for the doctors to finally give him some opiates. I had to score pills off the street for him, when the man had fucking cancer!! Even the people who really need the medication can't get it. Ridiculous. Lucky there's is a street supply. But who wants to deal with people like that? certainly not me

 

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

you got the wrong brand, theres brands without the stuff that makes you shit and puke everywhere

Don't think there are in the UK

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

For whatever it's worth, I am absolutely aware of the pros and cons of all the classes of drugs used to treat things like depression, and I am not saying that opiates could not be a better option than some drugs like SSRIs, but that would require a paradigm shift in the medical community which I would not expect to happen any time soon due to the radical demonization of opiates in general. So at this moment in time, you would be dependent on the black market for opiates which is precarious to say the least. Back in the 90s, on the heels of the Oxycontin crisis, you could get mass quantities of opiates.

Now, prescribers in ERs and clinics treat many patients like drug addicts and med seekers, which certainly can be true but is secondary to the opiate crisis in large part anyway. Getting opiates, even when indicated, is orders of magnitude more difficult than it was even a few years ago, and many doctors avoid prescribing them altogether, even in pain clinics. It has become too obvious of a liability issue for them, so opiates have become the hot potato of drugs in that world. I know because I happen to know many prescribers and have worked with them for many years. Benzos are a little easier to get by comparison, but I will tell you that in the future acquiring them will get increasingly more difficult. It is already happening out there, which again, I can speak to because I am in those places and had these discussions with MDs on many occasions.

Having said all that, I do know of at least one case in which a psychiatrist does prescribe hydrocodone to one patient, who was elder in years, and was resistant to all other interventions available over a long course of treatment, including ECT. One thing that I believe made a difference is that the person being prescribed the meds was a rather widely known artist who the prescriber treated for almost two decades, unsuccessfully, but after he discussed it ad nauseum with the prescriber he relented. This is an anomaly, but in that case, it was rather effective. So there's that...

Yeah I can understand all of that too.

I've actually talked to doctors who had no problem with me using opioids for mental health reasons. In fact, i've had some tell me I should move to Switzerland where diacetylmorphine is legal. So I think some doctors are smart enough to know that some people benefit from opioids, but they just don't' want to get involved in situation like that. I think if enough trust is developed between the doctor and patient, it certainly is possible.

But you're right. Due to unfair stigma, I don't see it happening any time soon. One can dream though right?

I found tramadol, buprenorphine and heroin all effective for my depression. But due to bupes pharmacology, long half life and partial agonism/antagonism, it loses it effectiveness as an every day med. It was no cure by any means, but it certainly kept me from other self destructive behaviors and from feeling neurotic. A slightly shorter acting full agonist would retain it's positive benefits longer IMO, cause you'll actually feel relief when you dose, rather than having your receptors constantly saturated, such as the case with bupe.

Honestly, I think adults should be able to purchase opiates just like people do alcohol. One can just as easily become addicted to alcohol, overdose on alcohol, etc... Yet society is alright with that. To me, that's total hypocrisy. I'd imagine a lot of alcoholics could probably put the bottle down if they had another option like an opioid too. Pure product, some education and a less stigma could go a long way in saving lives and helping some live better quality lives.

In some places, the stigma is gone & society is better for it. Dunno if we'll ever see that here, but it'd be nice.

 

[The Shadow Self]

All points taken, and I agree. It does not need to be this way, but alas, here we are.