Do you believe “addicts” can ever use again in moderation / safety?

[OpiateKiller]

First of all I don’t want this thread to trigger anyone whose sober to think they can use safely because in my personal experience the answer has been no thus far in my life.

—

So do you believe someone whose “diagnosed” or “self diagnosed” to have substance abuse disorder in the DSM-5 can ever not use drugs or alcohol in excess?

I do believe I’m “different” like many other addicts. Every member of my family tree has had or has a problem with alcohol, Irish roots.

In my experience I have never successfully relapsed from a period of sobriety and maintained a healthy life. For brief periods I’ve stayed away from heroin and drank alcohol and lived successfully but even alcohol eventually tolerance and use becomes problematic.

So in your experience, if you are or are not an addict, what do you think? (This really isn’t even for me I don’t plan on relapsing I’m almost 3 months sober it’s just something I think about from a science and logical standpoint and wonder if I could ever drink occasionally or take molly once a year, things of this nature. Thus far I have failed greatly. But I definitely have become more responsible and conscious of life and my purpose in general and drug addiction is not in line with my goals these days)

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

Theoretically yes, practically no. Has the rare person pulled it off? Sure, but old habits blah blah

 

[negrogesic]

Sort of.

I use opioids occasionally maybe 2x to .25x a week. And i used to be a fiend amongst fiends.

But id rather not. And these days i can only keep a very limited supply or ill use it all with little self control. So i suppose the real answer is probably not. What im able to do however is avoid serious physical addiction. Ive become very good at that. Ive haven't exceed mild physical addiction for perhaps 8 years now. And in the past i have been extremely physically addicted. Hopelessly even.

Playing with fire.

Benzos are another story. I can't go more than 1x every 30 days without a nasty rebound. Ive been seriously addicted to benzos a few times so i get serious rebound from just a single large dose. Benzo withdrawal puts the fear of god in me. Opioid withdrawal isn't a fraction as bad in comparison thus my hubris insofar as me fucking with them.

 

[Brendan12]

The only problem with addictions is negative health consequences..

If you are healthy of mind and body, then why the need to quit?

 

[burn out]

Yes it's possible but it's not advisable because there is a very high chance their use will increase again or cause problems.

 

[cduggles]

Not for long. Addiction will creep up again imho.

 

[TheAcetylationGame]

I think it depends entirely on the person and the exact nature of their relationship with each substance.

I know from personal experience that I can use both alcohol and cannabis in a way that doesn’t detract or possibly even benefits my life as a whole.

I can use methamphetamine (even IV) in moderation with ease but that is more because I was never particularly fond of it in the first place.

I can use opioids in moderation but only because I am maintained on methadone so I can have something on top every now and then and go back to my maintenance dose usually with the feeling that it just isn’t worth it.

If I wasn’t on methadone I am certain that it would be impossible to use opioids occasionally and would need to stay away entirely.

I cannot use Benzos in moderation but because I do not have a steady supply of them it has not been an issue. I will buy a stash of them to use when I have particularly severe anxiety symptoms but just end up taking them almost constantly till I run out

I think more often than not it’s a pipe dream if we are talking about your main DOC

 

[Nurse Ratched]

First of all I don’t want this thread to trigger anyone whose sober to think they can use safely because in my personal experience the answer has been no thus far in my life.

—

So do you believe someone whose “diagnosed” or “self diagnosed” to have substance abuse disorder in the DSM-5 can ever not use drugs or alcohol in excess?

I do believe I’m “different” like many other addicts. Every member of my family tree has had or has a problem with alcohol, Irish roots.

In my experience I have never successfully relapsed from a period of sobriety and maintained a healthy life. For brief periods I’ve stayed away from heroin and drank alcohol and lived successfully but even alcohol eventually tolerance and use becomes problematic.

So in your experience, if you are or are not an addict, what do you think? (This really isn’t even for me I don’t plan on relapsing I’m almost 3 months sober it’s just something I think about from a science and logical standpoint and wonder if I could ever drink occasionally or take molly once a year, things of this nature. Thus far I have failed greatly. But I definitely have become more responsible and conscious of life and my purpose in general and drug addiction is not in line with my goals these days)

Congrats on your continuing recovery.

 

[Twackademy]

I also think it depends on the individual, their overall lifestyle and how they use substances.

I hold a personal belief that too much of anything is bad for overall well being. I can't play World of Warcraft anymore because every time I do I get sucked into the world and always need to create "just one more alt". lol

If a person can be honest with themselves and actually maintain discipline then it's theoretically possible.

I'm also a bit of a hypocrite in my philosophy because I can abstain from any of my drugs for extended periods of time and not worry, except for Tobacco.
I always fall back on cigarettes because if I can't/won't use Alcohol, Cannabis, or Meth then at least I can stop, smoke a cigarette, and keep it moving to the next activity in my day.

I'm also a big believer in "Time and Place" and if the puzzle pieces don't fit, drugs aren't my answer.

Lastly, in my experience it is impossible to further develop my self-awareness and philosophies without spending time with myself completely sober.

Maybe I learned something from a trip, but I can't tell if it was a real lesson or not until I analyze it using my sober brain.

 

[jamesBrown]

Personally, my experience is that it all depends on the individual and if you're talking about the addicts'/ex-addicts' drug of choice or just drugs of abuse in general.
It's possible for SOME people to get clean from their DOC and then some time in the future use that drug again sparingly without addiction rearing it's ugly head again. But I would imagine most people couldn't do this bc usually humans lack the willpower for such self control. So it's prob not worth risking it.
But...if say, someone was an opioid addict for a long time and then they get clean and live a normal live for a while without using ANY drugs....I think it's VERY possible for that person to use other drugs that they never had a problem with as far as addiction goes without much risk of addiction. I have person experience with this.
I never was much of a fan of stimulants in general(although I've still used them plenty and enjoyed it lots of times)... and even though I enjoy the medical effects of benzos I have never truly enjoyed the "high" it can give you and consequently have never been addicted to benzos(or stimulants...as well as other classes of drugs other than opioids). So I can DEFINITELY use benzos, stimulants(meth, adderall, cocaine, etc) without addiction being a problem. And I'm very happy that's the case.
But opioids will ALWAYS pose a risk.

 

[JessFR]

I absolutely consider myself an addict. Specifically an opioid addict. 100%

But I don't consider myself to be an addict in the sense that I can't control myself with any addictive substances at all. Nothing I've seen has made me think that's the case.

While I may have trouble being entirely responsible with some other substances sometimes, no other substances other than nicotine and opioids have triggered the kind of addictive can't stop myself behavior that those drugs do.

I believe I can use alcohol responsibly for instance.

But I don't believe I will ever be able to use opioids in anything remotely approaching a responsible non addictive way. And I don't think that will ever change.

I think if you are really an addict to x thing. It's extremely unlikely you'll ever be able to handle it responsibly.

But being an addict to 1 class of drugs doesn't mean you are or will become an addict to other categories.

 

[ControlDaddy]

I think it depends entirely on the person and the exact nature of their relationship with each substance.

I agree, and add that IME, it depends on time and place, as Twacky sez in his post. I remember being absolutely addicted to smoking filterless cigarettes, but I quit the hard way in 2012, and now I can take or leave them again. Then again, a situation may override either state (empowered or addicted), I may have some fine VSOP in a snifter and suddenly I will rapier duel to the death for a decent cigar, and even when I had a cigarette habit I never smoked in my Benzes.

If a person can be honest with themselves and actually maintain discipline then it's theoretically possible.

I would add to this one too, my modification would morph it into "honest with themselves, and at least one other person, and always avoiding the sin of omission with that other person".

But I don't consider myself to be an addict in the sense that I can't control myself with any addictive substances at all. Nothing I've seen has made me think that's the case.

Same here. Addiction is not very well understood, so nebulous too is the term addict.

I have read all of the books written by Dr. LM Dodes on the subject of addiction. He takes odds with the First Step of 12 Step meetings, specifically the "powerless over drugs/alcohol" concept, which the rest of the twelve steps all build on as a foundation. The fundamental teaching in Dodes' work is that addiction is a response to helplessness. I find this tremendously useful in my recovery. I will get into the weeds with it sometime soon, but if you can't wait I will give you one to ponder or put to a trial.

I have found that if I am being triggered to act on an addictive response, and I don't act on it, this anxiety forms all around me and swarms. It gets angrier the more often it is triggered, making it harder each time to not act on it. So now I am trying to go about my life, with this swarm of angst all around me. It puts me on edge and retards some of my strengths. Normally I would turn to my DOC or even a cousin of it to relieve that angst, but usually that substance is not on the menu. I have found that willfully delaying the usage keeps me out of trouble in the very near future, for instance, "I am not going to drink until after I have made dinner." As soon as I say my tactic out loud, the angst dissipates, even without the chemical in the drug itself.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don’t know about safely, but after 3 rock-bottom rehabs and a year or two of AA/NA I found I could use stims and not totally fuck up my life. That is I could function basically at a social level, pass for straight when the situation demanded it, maintain a nice home and keep physically healthy and stay a long way from psychosis. I could even stop for days or weeks if life/ reality demanded it. I could control short term but not long term. I’m still not sure what keeps triggering me.

The continued use certainly prevented me from achieving a few goals in life and left we quite socially isolated since I did not know or hang out with users part from a few people I sourced from and I wanted to keep business business.

 

[trogere]

I voted "Yes they can use non addictive substance in safety". I don't keep access to substances like ket or MDMA because I know I have no control with them. But, I can keep a stash of 4-Aco-DMT or allylescaline without using more that one time per year;

I know myself enough to stay away from benzos or opiates.

 

[LadyWitch]

I think that most people, including myself, use to cope with emotional pain and/or trauma. If someone is willing to do the hard work in therapy and get their issues to a point where they can be managed or at least tolerated without the band aid of substances then it is definitely possible. I've been using cocaine on and off for a little over 20 years now. In my early 20s when I first started I nearly lost everything because of my use. I had to move away for 3 years to get my shit together. When I got back, I'd use while I was in difficult emotional situations but there were years, sometimes 3 or 5 years at a time when things got really good for me and I easily walked away from it. Substances are a band aid for emotional wounds so severe that just living in our own skin is unbearable. If one is able to address those wounds, the pull of addiction goes with them.

Just my humble opinion...

Jadis, QoS

 

[4meSM]

We're creatures of habit. When you engage in a new rewarding activity and keep doing it over and over you're basically building a new neural pathway. That particular pathway grows stronger and becomes easier and easier to take the more you use it, you learn what to expect and find comfort in it.

Usually it's easy to fall back into old habits, specially if you're using them as your primary copping mechanism. As they say "better the devil you know than the devil you don't".

So I think the risk of addiction is pretty high, but being addicted to something doesn't necessarily mean you have to become the very worst version of yourself and automatically engage in self-destructive behavior.
I personally think that the ones who can't use a substance without putting themselves on the brink of death every single time and instantly ruining their lives probably have bigger problems they haven't addressed (drugs are only a part of it).

 

[Xorkoth]

I voted for yes, non-addictive substances, but it depends on the individual. Let me just briefly tell my story:

I spent 10 years heavily addicted to opiates. I also had a period of 7 years (17 to 24) of chronic 24/7 marijuana usage, certainly an addiction, though the mildest one I've experienced that I just grew out of. I also spent 2 years taking psychedelics very often and eventually became utterly exhausted and grew out of that, too. I quit opiates for 5 years after taking ibogaine, but before long, I started increasingly using stimulants and alcohol, and had a couple of really intense and destructive periods of GHB addiction. I then relapsed a few times on opiates, and I have also been addicted to phenibut for years at a time, a few times.

Here is what I have learned about myself. Every single time I have let myself go back to opiates or GHB "just this once", it has quickly resulted in resuming where I left off, with severe, life-altering addictive behavior and withdrawals. I simply cannot ever touch them, and I very much doubt there are many people who can who have previously had severe problems, but your brain WILL try to convince you that you can, no matter how many times history has shown you that you can't. I've probably gone back and come off of opiates 20, maybe up to 30 times. Every time it's the same story, I convince myself I can use responsibly this time, and every time I am dead wrong.

Benzos, phenibut and alcohol... I do use these occasionally despite past addiction. I don't even really like alcohol anymore, it's too toxic, but occasionally I will do it at a social event and then regret it. I don't like benzos recreationally but use them for occasional insomnia and coming down from stimulating psychedelics. I use phenibut every so often but not more than once a week, generally a lot less. I am playing with fire a bit, but benzos are positive for me occasionally to help with sleep, and phenibut is just lovely and can help kick me out of a funky day I can't shake, so I continue to take the risk.

Stimulants, I realize I can't touch. Or, if I do, it has to be a one-off, like at a festival or show, a friend has something fun and offers me some, then okay, but if I have stims, I will abuse the fuck out of them.

The only drugs I can safely use with no worry are psychedelics and cannabis. But I know people who can't use them without spiraling into worse drug use, too. Some people will be triggered to start using all drugs when they do any drugs. That's why I said it's up to the individual.

My rule of thumb is, if a part of you questions the wisdom of doing a drug, you should listen to that part because it's almost certainly the truthful part of your brain right then.

It's complicated and it requires a lot of insight and introspection, and honesty. Certainly, I think you need to stay as far away as you can from the drugs that were your main problem, and any seriously addictive drugs that you enjoy. I would, if I were you, have a long period of total sobriety in order to be able to work out how you want to proceed with a clear head.

 

[ControlDaddy]

Great

I voted for yes, non-addictive substances, but it depends on the individual. Let me just briefly tell my story:

I spent 10 years heavily addicted to opiates. I also had a period of 7 years (17 to 24) of chronic 24/7 marijuana usage, certainly an addiction, though the mildest pone I've experienced that I just grew out of. I also spent 2 years taking psychedelics very often and eventually became utterly exhausted and grew out of that, too. I quit opiates for 5 years after taking ibogaine, but before long, I started increasingly using stimulants and alcohol, and had a couple of really intense and destructive periods of GHB addiction. I then relapsed a few times on opiates, and I have also been addicted to phenibut for years at a time, a few times.

Here is what I have learned about myself. Every single time I have let myself go back to opiates or GHB "just this once", it has quickly resulted in resuming where I left off, with severe, life-altering addictive behavior and withdrawals. I simply cannot ever touch them, and I very much doubt there are many people who can who have previously had severe problems, but your brain WILL try to convince you that you can, no matter how many times history has shown you that you can't. I've probably gone back and come off of opiates 20, maybe up to 30 times. Ever time it's the same story, I convince myself I can use responsibly this time, and every time I am dead wrong.

Benzos, phenibut and alcohol... I do use these occasionally despite past addiction. I don't even really like alcohol anymore, it's too toxic, but occasionally I will do it at a social event and then regret it. I don't like benzos recreationally but use them for occasional insomnia and coming down from stimulating psychedelics. I use phenibut every so often but not more than once a week, generally a lot less. I am playing with fire a bit, but benzos are positive for me occasionally to help with sleep, and phenibut is just lovely and can help kick me out of a funky day I can't shake, so I continue to take the risk.

Stimulants, I realize I can't touch. Or, if I do, it has to be a one-off, like at a festival or show, a friend has something fun and offers me some, then okay, but if I have stims, I will abuse the fuck out of them.

The only drugs I can safely use with no worry are psychedelics and cannabis. But I know people who can't use them without spiraling into worse drug use, too. Some people will be triggered to start using all drugs when they do any drugs. That's why I said it's up to the individual.

My rule of thumb is, if a part of you questions the wisdom of doing a drug, you should listen to that part because it's almost certainly the truthful part of your brain right then.

It's complicated and it requires a lot of insight and introspection, and honesty. Certainly, I think you need to stay as far away as you can from the drugs that were your main problem, and any seriously addictive drugs that you enjoy. I would, if I were you, have a long period of total sobriety in order to be able to work out how you want to proceed with a clear head.

Super post, thanks for sharing

 

[Prettyboy12]

First of all I don’t want this thread to trigger anyone whose sober to think they can use safely because in my personal experience the answer has been no thus far in my life.

—

So do you believe someone whose “diagnosed” or “self diagnosed” to have substance abuse disorder in the DSM-5 can ever not use drugs or alcohol in excess?

I do believe I’m “different” like many other addicts. Every member of my family tree has had or has a problem with alcohol, Irish roots.

In my experience I have never successfully relapsed from a period of sobriety and maintained a healthy life. For brief periods I’ve stayed away from heroin and drank alcohol and lived successfully but even alcohol eventually tolerance and use becomes problematic.

So in your experience, if you are or are not an addict, what do you think? (This really isn’t even for me I don’t plan on relapsing I’m almost 3 months sober it’s just something I think about from a science and logical standpoint and wonder if I could ever drink occasionally or take molly once a year, things of this nature. Thus far I have failed greatly. But I definitely have become more responsible and conscious of life and my purpose in general and drug addiction is not in line with my goals these days)

Im a heroin addict and got clean. I have since gone back to using only twice a month to feed my craving. I dont use a lot either.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Not all drug's are equal as are individual responses.

But for me personally. Ending a devastating period of my life atm. Alcohol should be treated with extreme caution. as it grabbed me my the ball's very unexpectedly. And for sure I can never drink again, beside's 1 Shandy or a glass of Kombucha.

5 unit's and I am instantly in WD's the next day, suffering and addicted.

Never a substance hooked me so hard. And the weird part of the Ethanol beast is that its way less rewarding. But way more reinforcing as any other drug I got hooked on.

In WD's severity it tops my personal addiction chart, never got into stronger opiod's or a Benzo dependence:

1. Booze.
2. GHB/ GBL.
3. Kratom.
4. Cannabis.
5. Methoxetamine.

So the poll is useless to me, i can use anything moderately. Not that i will. Except Alcohol.