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Do we really have souls?

The best discussion of this I've read comes from Derek Parfit's "Reasons and Persons." He uses a thought experiment to demonstrate that there is no such thing as personal identity, at least not in any traditional sense. If there is no identity, there is nothing to “go on” after death. The extremely abridged version of his thought experiment goes as follows:

There are people who have suffered strokes who lose nearly an entire hemisphere of their brain yet retain their essential characters and memories. Though most people have asymmetrical brains, a minority of people have more symmetrical brains, and so a perfectly symmetrical brain, with the same memories and character traits encoded on each side, is possible. Therefore, given advanced technology, it is within the realm of possibility to transfer one hemisphere of a symmetrical-brained person into an exact clone of that person’s body while retaining the essential character and memories of the person in BOTH. Traditionally the soul contributes something to character, and cannot be 'split' -- it is an "all-or-none" entity.

So which one did the soul go into and why? Both emerging entities are essentially the same at the level of experience (which is what matters) and appearance. Each would have one continuous memory of an operation taking place, opening their eyes, and feeling as though nothing had changed. If one of the pair dies, nothing changes. Put them back together after a few years and the resulting entity will have the memories and experiences of both! When you die your unique experience is gone, unless your exact brain state is somehow replicated/resurrected. It doesn’t matter that much though because "you" never existed in the first place and experience continues.

As far as the phenomenology of non-being is concerned, I find what a certain breed of panexperientialism entails plausible, which states that subjectivity -- the "what it is like to be-ness" of our existence -- is inherent at all levels of matter, not just brains and bodies. This entails even sub-atomic particles possess some sort of inherent subjectivity of being, though it is most likely totally incomprehensible for us to imagine such a state of being as we are the most complex physical systems in the known universe. The qualitative experience of a lone carbon atom, for instance, is different from bound carbon atoms in graphite, which is in turn different from bound carbon atoms in diamonds, as the quality of experience in the panexperientialist philosophy I'm referring to is contingent on both the type and arrangement of matter. Likewise CO2 has a different quality of subjective experienece, and on up through cells and organs and bodies and brains. The real mystery of this view to my mind is not how subjectivity arises from nothing, as it exists everywhere, but how the special configurations of neurons and bioelectrical activity UNIFY or compound trillions of organic molecules, each with their own experience, into a semi-autonomous self-aware ego. I think when we die there will still be experience, but it won't be of ourselves or of anything we can conceive from the perspective of our human selves.
 
when you ask if we all have a soul, it makes me wonder... why I was put in this body? with this consciousness? why wasn't I born in any other of the 6 billion people on earth today. think of how many other babies were born the same second as you why were you "awakened" in that body. I understand the whole gene part of how we are made up, but why was I "given control" of this body and not another body that was born at the same second as me. no one can answer this. the closest answer for me is reincarnation. and it begs the questions, if we have souls.. what about other creatures too?
 
We don't have souls, we are souls.

We have bodies.

Yeah I like this way of thinking.

when you ask if we all have a soul, it makes me wonder... why I was put in this body? with this consciousness? why wasn't I born in any other of the 6 billion people on earth today. think of how many other babies were born the same second as you why were you "awakened" in that body. I understand the whole gene part of how we are made up, but why was I "given control" of this body and not another body that was born at the same second as me. no one can answer this.

Coincidence? If you do believe that each individual body possesses a soul, then well, to put it simply, your soul has to go somewhere...does there have to be a reason why it happened to be your particular body?
But yes this comes down to genetics in the end.
 
^^ Genetics clearly has everything to do with the physical aspects of your body, but would genetics be passed metaphysically during rebirth, putting you into another body in your own blood line/one with similar genes?

I think not, I think that either it's a total coincidence, it's a choice made by us when we are in the state between death and rebirth, or it's for a reason but not a reason you could ever grasp in this level of existence.
 
I don't believe we have a soul. I have a sister who was hit by a car, in a coma, and came out with brain damage.... she is not the same person I knew her to be..... she likes new food, music, clothes, even the way she talks is different... why sis she change so much? I believe the behavior of humans is dictated by their past experiences in the world, and it has NOTHING to do with an actual 'soul'
 
Yes we do have souls.

Interestingly also we have, "soul mates" and "soul groups", and then a "twin flame".

Soul mates are people we generally have a profound understanding with.

People in your soul group, could relate to people you meet through life that you instantaneously get on with. for instance, if you've never met anyone before but seconds after meeting them feel like you could talk to hours with them, and take interest... then that is likely someone from your soul group.

Twin flame is a neo-term for your true love.
 
Yes we do have souls.

Interestingly also we have, "soul mates" and "soul groups", and then a "twin flame".

Soul mates are people we generally have a profound understanding with.

People in your soul group, could relate to people you meet through life that you instantaneously get on with. for instance, if you've never met anyone before but seconds after meeting them feel like you could talk to hours with them, and take interest... then that is likely someone from your soul group.

Twin flame is a neo-term for your true love.

This.
I am lucky to have found my soul mate too.

I see a soul as what is left when you are dead or through the use of selected chemicals what can be released & journey out into "the other side"
I was never 100% sure if we had a soul untill I had an experience that totally changed my life & view point on this subject.
Anyone that has done a long run on dissociative chemicals & doesn't believe we have a soul is crazy, I've spoken to "Gods" before & been told direct in no short way we are universal & our soul is forever.
 
Due to what I currently know about brain chemistry, I believe there is a soul. From what I know, if there wasn't a soul then everything in life is just one huge long uncontrolled chemical chain reaction and we have absolutely 0 free will. I don't believe we have no free will with how I have consciousness.

Note: I don't mean a soul in the religion sense, I just mean something that influences the reactions going on in our brain. How it exists or what it is made up of I honestly don't know and won't guess.
Is that not the brain itself? I mean, when I get up from the computer it won't be at some random point determined by an ongoing chemical chain reaction in my brain, it won't be when my soul decides it's time to tell my brain to get me up, it will be when I use my brain to decide to get up.

This.
I am lucky to have found my soul mate too.

I see a soul as what is left when you are dead or through the use of selected chemicals what can be released & journey out into "the other side"
I was never 100% sure if we had a soul untill I had an experience that totally changed my life & view point on this subject.
Anyone that has done a long run on dissociative chemicals & doesn't believe we have a soul is crazy, I've spoken to "Gods" before & been told direct in no short way we are universal & our soul is forever.
I've felt as though I was a unembodied "soul" floating through space and time before, and I encountered other unembodied entities on these journeys... but I'm not crazy for being aware of the fact that all of this happened inside my head because I was tripping balls.
 
I've felt as though I was a unembodied "soul" floating through space and time before, and I encountered other unembodied entities on these journeys... but I'm not crazy for being aware of the fact that all of this happened inside my head because I was tripping balls.

You are crazy for thinking that, it's as real as the PC in front of you when you read this.
I would take note of what you learned because when the time comes when we leave this dimension & go on our final journey what you learned will serve you well.
 
I don't believe we have a soul. I have a sister who was hit by a car, in a coma, and came out with brain damage.... she is not the same person I knew her to be..... she likes new food, music, clothes, even the way she talks is different... why sis she change so much? I believe the behavior of humans is dictated by their past experiences in the world, and it has NOTHING to do with an actual 'soul'

Agreed.

Show me evidence for the soul existing.
 
You are crazy for thinking that, it's as real as the PC in front of you when you read this.
I would take note of what you learned because when the time comes when we leave this dimension & go on our final journey what you learned will serve you well.
I never said it wasn't real, what goes on inside my head is very real and I believe I was on a journey through my subconscious mind. I felt that the unembodied entities I came across were elements of my mind usually hidden in the subconscious, but if you want to call me crazy for not thinking I had entered some alternate plane of existence inhabited by non-corporeal "gods" go ahead, I'm still not going to believe we have souls.
 
often these kinds of debates are like two groups of people who in essence have arbitrarily chosen their favourite "side" and have completely committed to that side. it's like arguing over music genre or ice cream flavour.

there's no evidence which completely rules out either argument.

personally, i don't like the polarity commonly held with determinism/free will, materialism/spirituality. in my opinion it is not completely one or the other. they most certainly can co-exist. there is a degree (which is quite large, i think) to our automation, where we are entirely subject to dispositional reactions stemming from experience and our genetic capacity to sense our environment. then there is a degree with which we actually do make decisions and create original ideas and it is neither predictable nor random/chaos.

The long answer is yes; the short answer is no

dude, seriously i think that is the cleverest thing you have ever posted.

kudos. i really didn't you had this in you.
 
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often these kinds of debates are like two groups of people who in essence have arbitrarily chosen their favourite "side" and have completely committed to that side. it's like arguing over music genre or ice cream flavour.

there's no evidence which completely rules out either argument.

personally, i don't like the polarity commonly held with determinism/free will, materialism/spirituality. in my opinion it is not completely one or the other. they most certainly can co-exist. there is a degree (which is quite large, i think) to our automation, where we are entirely subject to dispositional reactions stemming from experience and our genetic capacity to sense our environment. then there is a degree with which we actually do make decisions and create original ideas and it is neither predictable nor random/chaos.



dude, seriously i think that is the cleverest thing you have ever posted.

kudos. i really didn't you had this in you.
To the extent where someone would view our "soul" as natural processes of the brain I can understand that, but once someone claims there is a "supernatural" type of soul they have a burden of proof that they can not meet. Whereas I assume there is no supernatural soul because there is no proof or reason for me to believe otherwise.

My biggest reason for being skeptical of the idea of a soul is that everyone who believes in a soul seems to have their own idea of what it is, and that idea is often tied directly to the point where they lose the grasp of a philosophical concept or nuerological proccess... every description of a soul I've heard tends to sound like a philosophical concept running into a dead end, at which point the person goes, "and that's your soul."
 
there are two common fallacies in your position, which you have kindly separated into two paragraphs.

- you can not reasonably expect material evidence of a non-material phenomenon. you're creating a catch 22 here, in that if you were able to materially prove the soul, then it would no longer be supernatural. as long as it is really supernatural, by fundamental definition, it goes by special rules which do not ordinarily apply to how we measure or record or experiment the material universe.

- regardless of whether people have looked into neuroscience and mind philosophy or not, the supernatural conclusion is still potentially there. neither brain science nor philosophy sufficiently give an account for mental states. brain impairments can and do result in changes in personality, but this is actually inconclusive.

so, when you say you're fine with my position as long as it isn't supernatural, you are only doing so out of a personal preference. there is nothing wrong with that, we all do it. the actual science on the matter can't answer these question. it is impossible. as frustrating as it is, it is the only truth we have so far achieved in this regard.

i think this will be the inevitably perpetual position, because no matter how much we learn of brain chemistry and functionality, we will continue to have a shadow of socratic critical doubt about it. you have to, if you are going to be honest about your scientific logic. but you know at the end of the day, the answer really doesn't matter. i've posted this before here, but the answer to the biggest question there is is also the most inconsequential. it doesn't make a shred of difference to our every day lives. so with this question more than any other it is more important to simply get along with other people than try hard to be right. the former is only really possible without the destructive antagonism and futility of the latter.
 
How can a person who has never seen or heard of a computer, who knows nothing about digital electronics, but lives more in the spiritual realm than the universal realm prove or disprove a super quantum computer exists. The only relative association he/she may have is an encounter with and understanding of the universal God. I think God is more like a bird wanting to experience a small aircraft flying about. The bird is immersed in daily flight. Yet, the mass of daily experiences are illusive because of immersion in them. There are many stories of high minded scientists setting out to prove God 'does not' exist, but not a one succeeds. They do manage to prove does God exist to the only degree possible.

Many people are familiar with a saying that says to use all (ones) heart, mind, and soul, not to mention might. Doesn't this imply there is more to consciousness than a single essence such as a soul. Science remains unable to locate the mind in spite of advanced technology. Yet, I have read literature's more than 2,000 years old and the authors seem fully aware of its locale.

The presence of soul seems more psychological to me. Belief determines behavior to a large degree. How can a consciousness believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God and engage in behavior contrary to the belief? A person would have to mega dose on drugs or go into meltdown to do that. We are a complex being. Therefore, complex thinking is necessary to engage our own substance. Is there life after death? Your kidding right. We have mind whether we are a machine or not. Any thoughts?
 
there are two common fallacies in your position, which you have kindly separated into two paragraphs.

- you can not reasonably expect material evidence of a non-material phenomenon. you're creating a catch 22 here, in that if you were able to materially prove the soul, then it would no longer be supernatural. as long as it is really supernatural, by fundamental definition, it goes by special rules which do not ordinarily apply to how we measure or record or experiment the material universe.

- regardless of whether people have looked into neuroscience and mind philosophy or not, the supernatural conclusion is still potentially there. neither brain science nor philosophy sufficiently give an account for mental states. brain impairments can and do result in changes in personality, but this is actually inconclusive.

so, when you say you're fine with my position as long as it isn't supernatural, you are only doing so out of a personal preference. there is nothing wrong with that, we all do it. the actual science on the matter can't answer these question. it is impossible. as frustrating as it is, it is the only truth we have so far achieved in this regard.

i think this will be the inevitably perpetual position, because no matter how much we learn of brain chemistry and functionality, we will continue to have a shadow of socratic critical doubt about it. you have to, if you are going to be honest about your scientific logic. but you know at the end of the day, the answer really doesn't matter. i've posted this before here, but the answer to the biggest question there is is also the most inconsequential. it doesn't make a shred of difference to our every day lives. so with this question more than any other it is more important to simply get along with other people than try hard to be right. the former is only really possible without the destructive antagonism and futility of the latter.
I have to say I agree with you. In order to have discussions like this we have to accept that it's essentially a process of bouncing ideas off each other knowing we will not come to any sound conclusions, but also understand that a lack of sound conclusions does not make the topic unworthy of discussion.

Also, your post reminded me of a great quote out of The Myth of Sisyphus...

"This heart within me I can feel, and I judge that it exists. This world I can touch, and I likewise judge that it exists. There ends all my knowledge, and the rest is construction. For if I try to seize this self of which I feel sure, if I try to define and to summaruze it, it is nothing but water slipping through my fingers. I can sketch one by one all the aspects it is able to assume, all those likewise that have been attributed to it, this upbringing, this origin, this ardor or these silences, this nobility or this vileness. But aspects cannot be added up. This very heart which is mine will forever remain indefineable to me. Between the certainty I have of my existence and the content I try to give to that assurance, the gap will never be filled. Forever I shal be a stranger to myself. In psychology as in logic, there are truths but there is no truth." -Camus
 
i love a little camus in the morning. life is utterly absurd, is it not!

bouncing ideas is cool fun, but be careful about the words you use. i mistook your suggestion of a burden of proof requirement as the typical materialist hardline i've read many times before. thanks for clarifying and the apt quote. :)
 
There's no souls, of course not. You as you are does not exist without your brain functioning properly.
 
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