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Do players' tactics work on the vast majority of women, or only a subset of them?

Ninae said:
I think one of the problems guys have with this is the idea that "women like assholes" or "women like badboys" and "Why do women like assholes and badboys?". I can see how this can seem completely wrong and unfair to a really good guy.

The way I see it, it is definitely true that those type of guys have an attraction for women, and I do think this is something instinctual - or based on the need to find a good protector in a man (or provider, for that matter, same thing). A guy who's unable to hurt other guys is not a good self-protector, either psychologically or physically, he can get killed before he can bring himself to raise his hand against someone, and therefore he is also not a good protector for a woman or children. So he has low surivial value, and can also be seen to have low replication value in that his children are ALSO likely to have poor survival mechanisms.

In that way I agree with the evolutionary psychology thing, and think it's nothing really bad or immoral with women, but more like an unwilling subconscious response. Like, I've always preferred good guys, but when I started focusing on "bad boys" I found that I definitely found them more sexy. They just spark more attraction, also because they tend to be more masculine and UNLIKE women, so they generate a kind of male/female attraction, and when I realised this they started to interest me more, and expressed in the right kind of way I could find it very emotionally and sexuallly gratifying. I also had a relationship with a guy like that, and although he often made me unhappy and I didn't find him ideal in any way, I had very strong emotions and attraction for him and found it very rewarding.
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If I could have a mix of the smart scrawny guy and the bad-boy protective nature, I'd be set. lol
 
Ha. I was thinking of it a bit differently. My ex was smart (not intellectual) but I wish he could have been more loving and sensitive. But when it comes to this I guess it's one or the other. It's hard to be a woman.
 
It isn't one or the other. You have yet to meet the right man that you can fully mesh with.

When we drop the pretense of some public personas the best of us brings to us the best person for us.

I'm still waiting myself.

On topic:

There are many genetically encoded behaviors that seem to be driven by sexual selection. Players successfully playing games from both sides of the divide that is the social construct of gender identity seem to be more common than not for a good reason.

When only the fittest have the best chance of reproductive success in a very challenging social environment these kinds of behaviors become part and parcel of the mating game. So everyone at some time in their life may have to try the game on for size.

This is all in my personal opinion of course.

:)
 
The problem isn't so much meeting the right guy, but falling for the right guy. True, there are some guys who are naturally more balanced, or good guys who can also be really powerful/aggressive when need be. But this is quite a rare combination (and very attractive).
 
Ninae said:
Ha. I was thinking of it a bit differently. My ex was smart (not intellectual) but I wish he could have been more loving and sensitive. But when it comes to this I guess it's one or the other. It's hard to be a woman.
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Yeah, the smart ones are less lovey, touchey, etc. I did date a guy who was very smart and played the badboy thing, but he was so emo and I don't think he was really the tough guy he thought he was. He was the perfect mix, though. I miss him a lot. The real douchey, badboy one I dated, I loved a lot and thought he cared about me (famous last words, huh?) and he wound up totally stomping my heart into the ground. Lesson learned for sure. Now, I'm dating a really sweet, smart guy. He shows me he cares about me through his actions, but he's not a touchey feely type, and I do miss that from the badboy. I guess we can't have it all, huh? lol
 
Ninae - It sounds like you are looking for what a lot of women look for in the opposite gender: confidence, stability and strength.

At the extreme end you have people practicing more physically animalistic behaviors like bar fighting with other testosterone laden young guns on a Saturday night.

More nuanced expressions of that warrior's focus can be seen in very intelligent men that can outsmart and therefore defeat their competitors through the power of their perception and then focused mental projection.

No?

Different women have different standards based on a myriad of factors, but in the end there is always the game. How it is specifically played may vary widely, but the functionality and basic intended desired end result remains the same.
 
Lysis said:
Yeah, the smart ones are less lovey, touchey, etc. I did date a guy who was very smart and played the badboy thing, but he was so emo and I don't think he was really the tough guy he thought he was. He was the perfect mix, though. I miss him a lot. The real douchey, badboy one I dated, I loved a lot and thought he cared about me (famous last words, huh?) and he wound up totally stomping my heart into the ground. Lesson learned for sure. Now, I'm dating a really sweet, smart guy. He shows me he cares about me through his actions, but he's not a touchey feely type, and I do miss that from the badboy. I guess we can't have it all, huh? lol
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OBJECTION! I say there exists special cases of the set. I'm a bad boy... Hell I raid pirated boats off the Somali coast...but I still love to be, and am affectionate to my GF... I mean physically as well, I love to kiss her lightly and touch her etc tl;dr details...but I'm just as at home with an ERYX guided anti tank missile. I fit the bill. At least in the abstract.
 
Jerry Atrick and Jblazingphoenix100, I find it highly intriguing that your stories of "playing yourselves out", as it were closely parallel the stories of people who've accelerated their use of drugs or compulsive behaviors, to the point where they just burnt themselves out and quit in disgust. You hear a lot of stories and songs about old, used-up ladies men who never settled down, who are invariably bleak, jaded, stuck in place, and without joy. My question then is this: do we hear a lot of these stories because this is how most of these stories indeed end? Or is it that guys who end up this way are more motivated to shout their stories from the rooftops, while satisfied older men who never got tired of playing just shut up and enjoy their endless stream of pink? Or is it just complete collective sour grapes -- that is, is it easier for good guys to be good when they focus on those who didn't glean any joy from staying on the prowl, and more likely to publish and share such stories? Or a little of all three?

Ninae, your first post hits the core of the reason I never wanted a son. I just don't know that I can raise a boy to have the right balance between being an instinctive male animal, and being calm and wise. And I don't know that I would want to subject another male sentient being to the pain associated with being not instinctively masculine / aggressive enough. Or, alternately, I'm not looking forward to the friction of raising a son who is naturally far more high-testosterone than myself, and not being able to relate to him. I have no choice now, though. And it's heavy.
 
That's bullshit mdao, you are applying too much science to this. Attracting women isn't a matter of applying certain rules, as much as women would like to think so. It is possible to be a player and a "good guy", in fact it is often easier because most shallow women aren't even aware they are being played. I find it amusing that people here put such an emphasis on evolutionary traits such are fighting to protect your mate. What sort of societies do you live in where people need to fist fight? I have never had to even raise my voice when in public, let alone throw a punch. If you want to raise your son to succeed then make him smart enough to never need to fight.

I consider myself to be more a renaissance man than a alpha male. When I walk into a room most men don't see me as an immediate threat. I might not look like a brawler but I don't have to be. That's not to say I'm a weedy push either, I just don't ever have to puff out my chest or strut. Reality is I am confident to sell mysf to any women. Being intelligent is more than book smarts just as being tough is more than a hulking physique. Neither traits have to be exclusive of each other just as being sensitive to a women's wants is not restricted to a particular personality type. Reading women is a skill and I don't really believe it is something that can be truly taught. It is like reading a sales book doesn't make you a great salesman.

Only certain women can be played, as is shown by the ones who replied to this thread. Often they are the ones with low self esteem or ones that need their egos stroked (which is a large proportion of women). I find the biggest skill is listening, even pretending to give a shit, but without obviously being fake about it. Don't think this requires a high testosterone approach. You can do this by being sensitive, the real strength your son needs is conviction in his beliefs.
 
^Damn this thread just got busted wide open...I'm proud of the pun stfu....

rangrz said:
About good boy/bad boy...here is my take...its...well...fuck! good boys are boring! Would you rather read a short story by rangrz that involves a pile of meth and running RPG-7s to the shabububa tribe in Zaire for diamonds to trade for more meth; or a story about how rangrz built ans then painted white, a picket fence?

Conflict and surprise create interest, no conflict and no surprise, and damn, you are going to be having some boring conversations with your partner.
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idk man, knowing you there'd definitely be something fucked up about that white picket fence.

Like some laser detectors at the gate linked up to guided missiles and flamethrower mechanisms coming out of the sprinkler system in the lawn.
 
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Busty St Clare said:
That's bullshit mdao, you are applying too much science to this. Attracting women isn't a matter of applying certain rules, as much as women would like to think so. It is possible to be a player and a "good guy", in fact it is often easier because most shallow women aren't even aware they are being played. I find it amusing that people here put such an emphasis on evolutionary traits such are fighting to protect your mate. What sort of societies do you live in where people need to fist fight? I have never had to even raise my voice when in public, let alone throw a punch. If you want to raise your son to succeed then make him smart enough to never need to fight.

I consider myself to be more a renaissance man than a alpha male. When I walk into a room most men don't see me as an immediate threat. I might not look like a brawler but I don't have to be. That's not to say I'm a weedy push either, I just don't ever have to puff out my chest or strut. Reality is I am confident to sell mysf to any women. Being intelligent is more than book smarts just as being tough is more than a hulking physique. Neither traits have to be exclusive of each other just as being sensitive to a women's wants is not restricted to a particular personality type. Reading women is a skill and I don't really believe it is something that can be truly taught. It is like reading a sales book doesn't make you a great salesman.

Only certain women can be played, as is shown by the ones who replied to this thread. Often they are the ones with low self esteem or ones that need their egos stroked (which is a large proportion of women). I find the biggest skill is listening, even pretending to give a shit, but without obviously being fake about it. Don't think this requires a high testosterone approach. You can do this by being sensitive, the real strength your son needs is conviction in his beliefs.
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Busty, believe me, if there's one thing my kids will be it's principled.

If they get a gene for being good at reading people, it's likely to be a mutation :\ I agree with you -- I think similar to book smarts, a good bit of this is an inborn talent, not an acquired skill.

I also agree with you that the path of a renaissance man is a great one to walk. I've walked (and faltered at times) on that path as well. I don't believe that the phrase "the way of the gentle warrior" always deserves to be said with rolled eyes and a dramatically ironic tone of voice. However, my own experience and those of others who've posted in this thread indicates that at least a slight taste of "don't fuck with me" in a guy's personality (even if it never translates into actual aggression) is a necessary requirement for most girls finding him sexy. I feel like I'd be a hypocrite telling my son this, and wouldn't really know how to cultivate this in him even if I had no trouble with it. I just don't know how to tell a boy, "You have to preemptively show other males you'll take no shit and don't trust them not to give you any, if you want their respect and females' attention."
 
^I think a large part of it is simply standing up for yourself, and asserting where you stand. Instead of saying "sorry" as soon as someone has a problem with what you say, you defend what you said, or deflect their comment in a sort of verbal parry or turn it around to make them look silly for trying to call you out, or something like that. You don't need to puff your chest out as soon as a confrontation arises. A big part of seeming tough and assertive while also appearing like a good ladies man is remaining cool and knowing when not to be upset. "Not taking shit" is an attitude that you can't really exhibit unless there arises a confrontation or a disagreement.

I mean, you could just take 'roids and challenge everyone under the sun to a fight, but where's the mystery in that? They might have an appeal to some ladies, but their potential is severely limited. It's not about being a hot head, IMO.

Busty said it best when he said that having a strong conviction in your beliefs is the most important thing. That's the whole idea behind "being yourself" isn't it? Because no one on the planet is better at being MDAO than MDAO, so you are going to appear interesting and unique just by being you and being unafraid to present you in all of your peculiarities. You look like "everyone else" when you are afraid to stand by what you say you believe, and when you are afraid to speak up. I think it's mainly about keeping the conversation flowing, standing up for the things you say, and calling a spade a spade when the need arises.
 
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I think it's mainly about keeping the conversation flowing, standing up for the things you say, and calling a spade a spade when the need arises.
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Exactly. There is a difference to being confident and having to be aggressive in your views. I am not the strutting tough guy with bulging muscles but I did play professional rugby, which isn't exactly a wimpy pursuit. Apart from the sporting field I have never needed to be aggressive to get my point across. Being strong of heart and not bending to peer pressure is a far more difficult trait to pass onto my son. Women are not complicated creatures but they are able to sense bullshit a mile off.
 
I plan to get all my kids very early into some kind of sport fairly early on which teaches them self-confidence and grace under pressure in positive settings that don't involve having fun or aggrandizing yourself at others' expense. I obviously turned out OK -- I was lucky enough to have a highly supportive family who taught me maybe a little too well to avoid peer pressure, and instilled in me a set of values that are anything but base.

But it was hard not to question all the restraint I had cultivated, when I saw dudes around me who were saying yes to their more animal drives just having more fun. This became especially true when for the first time in my 20s, I started getting into some things for the first time, like weightlifting and supplements like lecithin, which raise testosterone levels. Suddenly I saw with utter clarity when I'd been missing, after it was far too late for teenage boy experimentation with flexing your ego. It was a tradeoff worth making on many levels -- I now carry myself in a way that earns others' respect, which was not the case before I became more athletic. But the side effect is that I'm now retroactively jealous of people like my brother, who spent all of high school and college feeding his libido. Yes he failed out of college twice, for reasons indirectly related to his erotic adventures. But he married a girl who'd chased him since high school, and was ready to settle down, having tried being unsettled for long enough. I'm not saying I'm bound to cheat; I've had the chance on a few occasions, and not taken it, because as I said, I'm strongly against having fun at others' expense or breaking my promises. But I wonder how long I'll wonder what it might have been like to try the whole sow-your-wild-oats thing, a regret people like my brother will never have.

I now completely understand the phenomenon of Japanese businessmen paying for the companionship of bargirls who do nothing but serve them drinks and flirt with them. They were so focused on passing entrance exams and working 90 hour weeks for their companies as young dudes, that they never had the time or energy to devote to prowling, and now they're making up for lost time.
 
rangrz said:
About good boy/bad boy...here is my take...its...well...fuck! good boys are boring! Would you rather read a short story by rangrz that involves a pile of meth and running RPG-7s to the shabububa tribe in Zaire for diamonds to trade for more meth; or a story about how rangrz built ans then painted white, a picket fence?
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Haha. I partly agree. I like the crazy, misbehaving badboy, they are fun and exciting, though you don't necessarily need to get involved with a guy who's going to end up in prison. But it's not true that all good guys are boring. They can have many other attractive qualities and if you think hard about it you can probably think of a good guy that everyone loves.

Some guys believe that more attractive women are more likely to go for badboys while less attractive women are more likely to be repulsed/scared by them, so in that way they don't have anything to lose. And I think there is something to it, or a form of emotional strength and self esteem that goes along with being an attractive woman that makes a relationship with someone like that easier to take. But there are also many attractive women who only go for good guys, if they are very sensitive, or relate more to that.

I think women shouldn't be so scared of men so they can have more fun. I mean, what is the worst they can do? I guess a fear with a guy like that is that he's going to be a user (or even capable of sexual assault) but he can only use you if you let him. If you don't let anyone use you and only get involved with guys who are really into you, you won't have that problem. You need to be wary of guys like that but not as much as some women think. It all depends how vulnerable you make yourself to men. If you are very vulnerable it will be very hard for a guy like that to make you happy and there will be a lot of grief. So if you make that decision you should focus more on the positive things. Just saying what I find works in an actual relationship.
 
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Only certain women can be played, as is shown by the ones who replied to this thread. Often they are the ones with low self esteem or ones that need their egos stroked (which is a large proportion of women). I find the biggest skill is listening, even pretending to give a shit, but without obviously being fake about it. Don't think this requires a high testosterone approach. You can do this by being sensitive, the real strength your son needs is conviction in his beliefs.
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Exactly.

I do disagree with the notion that a warrior mindset doesn't still underpin a lot of the more "savage" aspects of what is considered male-centric behavior.

I think American Football, which is increbibly popular in a country of nearly 300 Million might make a better example than Rugby, at least in my estimation and opinion.

And yes, many long time players pay for all of that physical head bashing by losing a lot of their cognitive abilities much earlier in life, on average. It really might be better to watch the game than play it at that extreme level for extended periods.

...just food for thougt to me.

:)
 
Guys, I appreciate you all bearing with me. Even if you think my way of thinking about all this is silly, I appreciate hearing it. I wish this demon didn't still haunt me, and I'm not proud of it, but I'd rather face it now, before I begin a new chapter of my life where I need to be firm about where I stand on things like sex. Having a wife who's in no state for satisfying me sexually for several months sure brings this issue front and center.

This is really subject for another thread, but I'm coming to the conclusion that my high libido is the bane of my existence. It really doesn't fit well at all with the other parts of my personality.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
Guys, I appreciate you all bearing with me. Even if you think my way of thinking about all this is silly, I appreciate hearing it. I wish this demon didn't still haunt me, and I'm not proud of it, but I'd rather face it now, before I begin a new chapter of my life where I need to be firm about where I stand on things like sex. Having a wife who's in no state for satisfying me sexually for several months sure brings this issue front and center.

This is really subject for another thread, but I'm coming to the conclusion that my high libido is the bane of my existence. It really doesn't fit well at all with the other parts of my personality.
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Regarding the demon that haunts you, I would say not to be so hard on yourself. I tried not to romanticize too much in my posts. I think had I gone the path of my older brother, which was to marry young and start a family, I would be much happier at my present age.

It's funny, I used to occasionally tell him stories and I think he was a little jealous that he had never been with that many girls. Now the worm has turned and I'm a little jealous about not having a family. So in essence, the grass may not be greener on the other side.

I'm glad to hear you're not a cheater; I've never been one either. I didn't had a lot of deal-breakers in my younger days (or today for that matter), but a woman being married is definitely one of them.
 
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