Do Most Long-Term Psychedelic/ Empathogen Users End Up On Meds Or Anti-Psychotics?

[Unregistered4356]

Please forward to "MAPS Discussion." Thanks.

1. Do you think that most long-term or heavy Psyc users end up on medication? You see a lot of people described as "acid casualities", or "permatripping", or having "HPPD" from heavy or frequent use. Is it possible that people use psycs at time to self-medicate latent diseases?

2. Do recreational psyc habits clash with clinical uses or do they provide supporting conclusions?

3. Is it telling that Ken Kesey and his followers went the recreational path, while Timothy Leary and his fans went the spiritual route?

4. Do you think if they were available at the time, and more was known of HPPD, more participants in the "Summer of Love" would have been on second generation anti-psychotics rather than the looseness of jogging, water beds, yoga, grass, etc of the 70's?

 

[rhizome]

1. Do you think that most long-term or heavy Psyc users end up on medication? You see a lot of people described as "acid casualities", or "permatripping", or having "HPPD" from heavy or frequent use. Is it possible that people use psycs at time to self-medicate latent diseases?

Sure, it's possible- about anything is. Not very likely, though. Self-medication for mental illness tends to involve GABAgenics and/or opiates. Only a vanishingly small % of users ever report HPPD symptoms. I'd be deeply surprised to see stats showing an increase in mental health treatment correlated with long-term psych use- IME, psyche users develop MH issues at about the same rate as the rest of the population.

2. Do recreational psyc habits clash with clinical uses or do they provide supporting conclusions?

What does this even mean? Recreational users regularly have therapeutic experiences. Clinical users regularly have fun. Are you asking about recreational versus clinical use by the same user?

3. Is it telling that Ken Kesey and his followers went the recreational path, while Timothy Leary and his fans went the spiritual route?

Actually, there was a deep spirituality associated w/ the Pranksters, and some hedonistic partying that went on at Millbrook. The two aren't as binary as you think.

4. Do you think if they were available at the time, and more was known of HPPD, more participants in the "Summer of Love" would have been on second generation anti-psychotics rather than the looseness of jogging, water beds, yoga, grass, etc of the 70's?

Heh? Acid may have influenced '70s pop culture, but most of those folk jogging and/or smoking weed in their waterbed never actually ate any, so I'm gonna have to go with "No".

 

[Trying2Iso]

MDMA isn't good to use regularly, i'll just put it that way...
not safe for that.
at most once a month probably. at the doses i take (125-175mg).

 

[sekio]

This belongs in Psychedelic Drugs, not MAPS Discussion.

 

[Doldrugs]

Because of politically driven prohibition, there's a woefully sparse amount of science on this, but lately it's been changing. And the consensus seems to be that responsible use of dissociatives and psychedelics is overall good for mental health.

 

[ecstacylover]

I don't think any amount of dissociative consumption is good for mental health, except possibly in cases where it is used therapeutically and dosages are strictly regulated. That said, I do use dissociatives I just feel they are so enjoyable and at the same time isolating that it becomes difficult to come back to the real world.

 

[No. 13 Baby]

Actually very few, I would guess

 

[perpetualdawn]

There was a survey of 130,152 people in USA to determine if psychedelics harm mental health:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063972

Some quotes:

Data drawn from years 2001 to 2004 of the National Survey on Drug Use and Health consisted of 130,152 respondents, randomly selected to be representative of the adult population in the United States.

in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems.

Conclusion

We did not find use of psychedelics to be an independent risk factor for mental health problems.

 

[Kl519]

Sheesh, anything that rightfully destroys the stigma on substances is nice to hear. I've heard so many say that "drugs are bad," but they don't really know why. Everyone is taught to look at it that way without even knowing the truth about drugs. Damn government for the failed war on drugs, and the lies that pervaded throughout society. They succeeded in a way, assuming that they knew the outcome would drive money into their pockets.

People have been smoking weed and eating shrooms for centuries. There are no recorded outbreaks of people dying or getting sick from them. A lot of substances have better safety profiles than a lot of legal medications that millions of people take every year. Yet this is a fact that the general populace does not seem to know, and authority figures do not want people to know that either. It's pretty backwards when you consider the legality of cigs and alcohol, but at least weed is finally breaking through their wall of bullshit. More to follow, hopefully?

 

[Trying2Iso]

There was a survey of 130,152 people in USA to determine if psychedelics harm mental health:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063972

Some quotes:

That study's findings ride on the hope that everyone in the US gets legitimate LSD (the study was of lsd, psilocybin, and mescaline, not all psychedelics.)
unfortunately there is so much fake shit out there, and so many people don't test (especially young people).
i'd like to see a study done of some of the mimics and see how that turns out...

 

[Doldrugs]

That study's findings ride on the hope that everyone in the US gets legitimate LSD (the study was of lsd, psilocybin, and mescaline, not all psychedelics.)
unfortunately there is so much fake shit out there, and so many people don't test (especially young people).
i'd like to see a study done of some of the mimics and see how that turns out...

But that's irrelevant to this discussion. If they're using irresponsibly it's their irresponsibility which is causing the risk, not psychedelic use in general. If psychedelics were regulated and freely available and people were given useful information on safe use instead of unscientific prohibition propaganda, would psychedelic use be negative in any way?

I don't think any amount of dissociative consumption is good for mental health, except possibly in cases where it is used therapeutically and dosages are strictly regulated. .

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23982301/

http://www.m.webmd.com/depression/news/20140923/ketamine-depression

If it's safe and beneficial in a medical setting, why wouldn't informed, responsible people be able to get positive effects from it outside of that setting? Where's your proof that responsible, safe use of dissociatives can cause mental health issues? That just sounds like parroted anti-drug propaganda. The more legitimate science comes out, the more it seems the opposite is true. Ketamine, for example, is a very safe drug with a long history of safe medical use. It has the potential for abuse, like many useful things. I don't think it makes sense to judge the value of an entire class of drugs on the irresponsible actions of some users.

 

[Trying2Iso]

But that's irrelevant to this discussion. If they're using irresponsibly it's their irresponsibility which is causing the risk, not psychedelic use in general. If psychedelics were regulated and freely available and people were given useful information on safe use instead of unscientific prohibition propaganda, would psychedelic use be negative in any way?

The discussion is about psychedelic drugs, not LSD/Mescaline/Psilocybin specifically.
Not all psychedelic drugs are safe, there is really no way to make some of these new RC psychedelics safe, many of them are simply dangerous compounds
You should have mentioned when citing the study that it only involved these certain safe psychedelic drugs, saying that it applies to psychedelic drugs in general is not in the theme of HR

 

[Doldrugs]

Using drugs recklessly without a good understanding of the risks can result in negative outcomes. Take the word drugs out and replace it with anything. It's the irresponsibility that's the issue, not the drugs. If you use a poorly understood drug and don't follow basic safe practices, the fault isn't on "psychedelic drugs" as a whole. It's on you for not being careful, responsible, and safe. I don't think psychedelic users are naturally irresponsible. I think, like any group of humans, they are a full spectrum.

 

[Trying2Iso]

Yeah i agree with that, i'm saying it's not good to promote a study on LSD/Psilocybin/mescaline as a study on psychedelic drugs as a whole.
That's like saying cannabinoids are all totally safe just because a study on cannabis says cannabis is. (i.e spice/K2 being the unsafe drugs excluded from said experiment)

 

[AA357]

The acid casualties are those people that go off to strange places in their heads and don't come back. It's a psychological thing - it comes from overthinking experiences and trying to find 'answers' and higher meaning in everything.
Another problem is when people with mental illnesses, or people who have a predisposition to psychosis take psychedelics. They can aggravate existing mental health issues.
Classic 5HT psychedelics don't cause any brain damage. If you take them daily, your serotonin receptors quickly build up a tolerance to these drugs - but apparently not to serotonin itself. There is no evidence that they destroy serotonin receptors or cause depression (like MDMA and other SRAs).

 

[Doldrugs]

I think "acid casualties" are a myth. Some people with preexisting mental health issues take acid and it exacerbates or speeds up the expression of their illness. That's all I've ever read proof of. There's even some evidence that psychedelic use can be helpful for some people with mental health issues.

 

[AA357]

I think "acid casualties" are a myth. Some people with preexisting mental health issues take acid and it exacerbates or speeds up the expression of their illness. That's all I've ever read proof of.

I do think it is a real thing, but the causes are psychological rather than neurological. You have to be quite tough mentally to be able to handle regular psychedelic use.
People who are branded 'acid casualties' tend to be really wacky and far out because they've allowed the drug to influence their way of thinking too much.
Bad trips can cause psychological trauma that lasts for days or even weeks in some people.

There's even some evidence that psychedelic use can be helpful for some people with mental health issues.

Possibly, but it all depends on the person and the nature of their condition. A psychedelic drug is probably the worst thing you could give to a paranoid schizophrenic.

 

[Doldrugs]

Yes, it's very risky and case dependent. Once psychedelics find their way into the medical establishment proper, I expect to see them prescribed much more often to those with anxiety, depression, body dysmorphia, etc and never or almost never to people with schizophrenia and similar diagnoses. But it could turn out certain psychedelics administered in a medical setting with careful supervision before and after could be useful even to someone with that kind of issue. We'll never know until they do away with the unscientific legal restrictions that are in place.

Either way, I think it's fair to say that a paranoid schizophrenic should never self medicate with psychedelics, deleriants, or dissociatives.

 

[Trying2Iso]

Yes, it's very risky and case dependent. Once psychedelics find their way into the medical establishment proper, I expect to see them prescribed much more often to those with anxiety, depression, body dysmorphia, etc and never or almost never to people with schizophrenia and similar diagnoses. But it could turn out certain psychedelics administered in a medical setting with careful supervision before and after could be useful even to someone with that kind of issue. We'll never know until they do away with the unscientific legal restrictions that are in place.

Either way, I think it's fair to say that a paranoid schizophrenic should never self medicate with psychedelics, deleriants, or dissociatives.

psychedelics can trigger schizophrenia and similar disorders in predisposed individuals. Since depression, anxiety, and other disorders and symptoms associated with those disorders are quite often comorbid with schizophrenia and/or latent schizophrenia it may be advisable to only use psychedelic therapy as a last-resort treatment, rather than making it commonplace.

 

[Xorkoth]

Interesting discussion...

Most users? No, I don't think so. Some? Yes. The causes are many and varied. Some people, as has been said in here, do too many psychedelics and allow themselves to stray off the path of functionality in the mind. Some people have pre-existing mental conditions that are worsened, though who's to say they aren't worsened from other causes or at least also from other causes? Some people who use drugs had trauamtic childhoods or other periods of life (as is true with any group of people), and although they may do a lot of psychedelics and end up on medications/with mental issues, they most likely would have anyway, or even already were in that state before taking psychedelics. Some people do a lot of psychedelics and also a lot of other drugs such as benzos, opiates, alcohol, etc... then they may also qualify, technically, but in reality their problems may have been brought on by the other drugs (this was the case for me when I was addicted to opiates).

So basically I think the numbers for psychedelic users who do end up with issues are exaggerated because of other factors being ignored in the analysis... or at least that could happen, depending on who is asking the question.