Discussion: The Death Penalty & Capital Punishment

[buzzn_all_nite_long]

there are videos out u can get from the net and it shows real people gettin electicuted. www.facesofdeath.com its fucking horrible. not for the weak hearted. i havent seen it, i dont wanna see it. but ive heard stories.... HORRIBLE....

 

[SteveElektro]

Obviously you don't agree with the points you raise in the first half of your post and capital punishment in general, (hence the second half of your post) but since there are probably a few people who have read this thread and do hold these views, and the fact that I am shit-bored, I decided to address the points you raised in favour, hope you don't mind

Capital Punishment Essay

“The state government should think seriously about re-introducing the death penalty”

America has the death penalty, Japan has the death penalty, many more countries have the death penalty, why cant Australia.

The US hands down 20 year sentences for victimless crimes, should we?
Hell...South Africa had apartheid, should we?
Ridiculous point.

Is it really that inhumane to kill a person who has done a horrendous thing to society.

Inhumane is inhumane, it doesn't matter who you do it to. Things don't just suddenly become ok because you feel you have chosen the right person to inflict barbaric practices on.
Is it ok to skin a muderer alive? I doubt many would say yes, yet that's what this argument implies.

A person who will not see the light of day again anyway. A criminal behind bars for the rest of his or her life. That could be from 20-50 years maybe even more. Imagine fifty years of tax payers money spent on a thing less than scum.

Nope, killing them costs more, at least in the states. This point has no validity whatsoever unless one is to abandon the appeals process, which means more dead innocents.

People would be afraid to commit crimes, they wouldn’t want to be poisoned, gassed, electrocuted or hanged. It costs a whole lot less as well.

Nope. No one wants to be locked up for the rest of their natural lives either, yet people still commit crimes. Killing them makes no different as a deterrent, studies have shown this, and IMO it's pretty damn obvious. We have a far lower crime rate than the US, and we don't have capital punishment. Does anyone think if the US abolished capital punishment, their crime rate would suddenly go up? If they do, they are wrong. They did in fact abolish it for a brief period, it made no significant difference to the crime rate, apart from the state-sanctioned murders that consequently never took place.

Do you really think people like paying for child molesters and rapists to have a big, juicy steak for dinner, watch television, and go to their own private gym. No, I didn’t think so.

This is the typical line parroted by the proponents of the death penalty, yet is is inherently stupid.
No one who has prison experience or is close to those who have seriously believes that it is just a walk in the park (we are talking max security here, as that is where those who would have been put to death go)
To think they get steak dinners!!!
It's pure nonsense, all of it.

I mean sure there is no price for the human life but as quoted in an essay written by Barbara Jackson “ when we allow wilful murderers to live, what price then have we put on the innocent lives so brutally ended?”

Like those 23 innocent people I listed who were executed? Terrible isn't it. Since they were innocent, yet murdered by the state who is essentially the people in a democracy, should we then execute the people (the entire country) for murdering an innocent? If not, then as you say, "what price then have we put on the innocent lives so brutally ended?"

what were the murderers thinking about when they were killing someone, when they were taking a life, that wasn’t their’s to take in the first place.

This argument applies equally to the state that executes it's prisoners.

Do you really think 24 years is enough for someone who has raped a child, a child who’s life is now over before it even began. This person is punished for twenty-four years. The victim is punished for the rest of his or her life, for just being there. The criminal is let out after twenty years, because they have been good in prison. But then three days later someone is murdered and raped by the same man, let out. that’s not justice, twenty odd years is not justice, they should be banned from life, not for life.

This problem can be corrected by means other than execution.

Jesus I'm bored

 

[buzzn_all_nite_long]

^^^^^
hey, just to defend myself, i wrote that in year 10. we had to write it about how the state goverment was thinkin about re-inroducing the D.P into australia. and i completely disagree.
i dont believe in the death penalty, it was a rushed essay and i didnt have barely any info, it was merely off the top of my head and just so i could pass the course. i passed (after i re-wrote it twice). we had to do both P.O.V. but thanks for ur opinions.

 

[SteveElektro]

^^ No worries, I didn't see you post about when you wrote it because you posted that while I was posting. It's decent for a year 10 though
And yeah, I know you obviously disagree, the last half of your essay made it pretty damned clear.
The fact is thoiugh, that there are Australians who hold the views you brought up in favour, and yeah, I was bored, so I felt like responding.
Tuesday nights are boring

 

[LiquidMethod]

Prison is inhumane.
I'd rather be put to death than spend the rest of my life in jail.
Bring on da firing squad.

(Did you see the face of that Bali bombing suspect after he was sentenced? He may be completely fucked up, but he ain't a dumbass)

 

[Mr. Horse]

Amrosi will become a martyr if he is given the death sentence. I disagree with that decision.

Death is not the answer, and some of the posts written in this thread have been very well thought out and eloquent, great topic steve.

Anybody noticed that little johnny howard has been talking of the death sentence of late? Perhaps this will be a key election point for him getting a fourth term?

I fear for this country with howard at the helm.

 

[SteveElektro]

Prison is inhumane.
I'd rather be put to death than spend the rest of my life in jail.
Bring on da firing squad.

(Did you see the face of that Bali bombing suspect after he was sentenced? He may be completely fucked up, but he ain't a dumbass)

I'd bet that if faced with the prospect of death, you'd choose life imprisonment.
Why do I say this? Because pretty much everyone else does, hence the lengthy appeals death row inmates make.
As far as Amrosi goes, he has done just this, appealed the death sentence. He has no wish to become a matyr.

 

[papermate]

Whats the number of people that have been put to death by capital punishment? Whats this number verses the 23 ( i hope i read correctly, im tired) that have been wrongfully killed.

 

[dex]

If you rule death out, then whats the option? If i take your eye will you just let it be? or not? or will you get me thrown in jail which is suposed to help me get better, but instead i am thrown in with like minded people. and given the fact that i spend years in such an environment getting a bed, a roof and 3 square meals and heaps to "extra" nice people to help me, you think i won't get out and take someone else's eye out?

Time and time again i have heard stories like these people start off petty, end up in jail, get out, do something worse, get back in jail, get out and the cycle continues. All the while your hard earned taxes are paying for the courts, police to chase these knobs up and put them back into a jail where your taxes pay for their 3 square meals.

Since everyone seems to have ruled out the death penelty, we aren't really doing anything about the real problem are we.

the fact of the matter is someone doens't think about the consequences of murder cause aren't any. you get to live and stuff. and all the while the family of the person murdered live in fear knowing that in due course the murderer will be out.

I supose none of us have been unlucky enough to be on the otherside and loose someone you love to some idiot. so we can't really say. I know i can't. but i know that if it was me, i wouldn't want the same to happen to someone else.

We spend far too much time worrying about whats humane for someone who was never thought about this when he/she commited the crime.

If capital punishment isn't the answer then what is? and how can we be sure that it helps?

Jail isn't the answer... we have proved that now beyond doubt... and from everyone else's responces, capital punishment isn't an option either... i guess untill we come up with an option, and untill then we are back where we started...

 

[SoN_of_SaMurAi]

....soo...people like martin bryant, amrozi, hell...we'll even chuck in Hitler Pol Pot and Idi Amin while we're at it, deserve to live out the rest of their lives cozy in a prison cell while people with hearts worthy of true martyrdom can do nothing but watch with a depth of sadness you cannot even GRASP.

Someone very close to me was murdered, and let me tell you boys and girls, there isn't ONE DAY that I dont wish that that fucker who did it was flayed, burned and arse raped till he died.

Lets forget this bleeding heart shit, and call for JUSTICE when it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that the purportrator has been caught...as it has been in my case.

Seriously, if you haven't been in the situation you can't say either way whether you approve or not. Just ask some other victims and gauge their responses, because they are the ones whose opinions have been tested.

It really angers me when those who have NO IDEA what it feels like to be a victim of the crime of murder of a loved one claim that the death penalty is not the answer. It is on par I believe with those who would vehermently deny euthinasia to a suffering family, it sickens me sometimes how politically correct our "society" has become.

BTW...as I stated before.."when it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt" I could never be blind in judgement of who should and who should not be killed.

 

[Macksta]

^^^ But the point is courts still get it wrong

Currently in courts in the US, when they send someone to prison for life for murder, they do so because there is no shadow of doubt. The judge and the jury are unanimous in the persons guilt.

Unfortunately courts still get it wrong and convict innocent people. Now you can always let an innocent person out of jail, but it's a great deal more difficult to unkill someone.

There have been people on death row released having subsequently been proved innocent... who at the time of conviction were shown to be 'guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt', and yet clearly were not.

The problem with using phrases such as "when it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt", is that for all their implied objectivity... they're still subjective to a certain extent.

A corollory of what you are suggesting is also that people are being convicted and handed lesser sentences based on the fact that a judge is "less sure of their guilt". Someone is either guilty or not guilty.. and if they are ajudged as guilty then in the eyes of the law their guilt in commiting the crime for which they are convicted is 100%. Every person convicted of murder is done so because they are guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt according to the law. Unfortunately the law is made and governed by people, and people make mistakes.

Now I'm sure that a great many of the people sentenced to death for murder in the US were guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted.. I'm also sure that at least one or two of them weren't.

 

[-Thoth]

Woah, "martyrdom?" "JUSTICE?" Prison is "cosy?"

Let's chill on the value laden terms, samurai.. They make you sound a little nuts. Beleive it or not, its also possible to make a coherent argument against the justice system without reffering to Hitler.

 

[SoN_of_SaMurAi]

Believe it or not there is a way to state a valid point without resorting to snide comments

 

[apollo]

Whats the number of people that have been put to death by capital punishment? Whats this number verses the 23 ( i hope i read correctly, im tired) that have been wrongfully killed.

I've searched for the figures so I could say "1 in xxxx" number is innocent... But I can't find them. I know it is just below the 1000 mark since 1971 (or whenever they reintroduced it in American).

 

[kryalkastleE]

i think that people who have had family members/friends murdered take on a very different viewpoint.....

it seems so easy to comment on it when its just opinion on a foreign topic, but i think that SOME peoples views would be very different if it actually happened to them.....

i am for one against the death penalty....as said before it is inhumane, two wrongs dont make a right etc....however, i do think that if someone close to me was murdered and the person was caught, i may not be able to hold the same opinion.....

 

[a_muse]

Firstly I must say, SteveElectro, you have been spending way too much time in Current Events and Politics, lighten up, mate !!!!!
(Actually, I really enjoy your posts in the aforementioned forum )

I sincerely hope that Australia is a civil (not civilised) enough nation not to reintroduce the death penalty. There is no evidence to suggest that it deters crime and what example can you possibly be setting to the community by acting in revenge like tactics.

I think what the majority of advocates are forgetting is that perpetrators have families too. One has to remember that executed people also have parents and siblings, etc. They are also human beings who are somewhat misguided and they need our sympathy.

I remember watching a documentry on Timothy McVeigh on the ABC a couple of years ago and his neighbours and family once knew him as a wonderful young man and were really devastasted by the person that he became. His execution, a way of evening up the scores, was a mere rubbing the salt in the wound for them.

Anyone interested should check out "Executions", it's not nice viewing at all, but it is a very realistic insight into the subject.

Check out below website for information on execution as well as abolitionist and retentive nations.
Amnesty International

 

[SteveElektro]

^^I've seen executions, I think all who are in favour of capital punishment should see it.
Not easy to stomach, but a very well made documentary that gives a real insight into the practice.

 

[wazza]

found this during a random search. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47945 .

 

[Raz]

Seriously, if you haven't been in the situation you can't say either way whether you approve or not. Just ask some other victims and gauge their responses, because they are the ones whose opinions have been tested.

It really angers me when those who have NO IDEA what it feels like to be a victim of the crime of murder of a loved one claim that the death penalty is not the answer. It is on par I believe with those who would vehermently deny euthinasia to a suffering family, it sickens me sometimes how politically correct our "society" has become.

Dude, not to in any way make light of what you've been through, because I have no doubt that it's a lot more terrible than anything a lot of people have experienced....

...but to say that we don't have the right to an opinion on this subject because we haven't directly been touched by it, is in this case at least, flawed. When you're talking about the rules that govern our society, of course we have the right to an opinion. After all, aren't we all part of that society?

If somebody I loved had been murdered, damn right I would want the person who did it put through as much pain as possible. That's a natural human reaction. But I also would hope that cooler heads would prevail, and that the people around me would be able to make a decision not based on emotional involvement in the tragedy, but rather on considerations of what's morally right. And I don't see what's morally right in taking away someone's life to assuage your own pain. Because it doesn't change the fact that you've been hurt, it's been proven that it certainly doesn't act as an effective deterrent to anybody else, and it removes the hope (however slim that might be depending on the circumstances) that the offender can be rehabilitated.

Also, on a less personal note and as Steve pointed out initially, there's always the chance that the justice system fucked it up...I wonder how well those prison staff sleep at nights knowing that they oversaw the execution of a man who was guilty of no crime? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience...

I hope none of this has been offensive, just my view on the matter...

--Raz--

 

[FoXi]

Wow this thread really had some interesting points. It's interesting to see opinions for and against and to have read a response from another person who has lost someone. Now at the risk of totally killing the thread hehe :/, I just wanna share what I've experienced as I am another person who has lost loved ones to crime and I think it would be good to hear two different views from people who have experienced loss.

I lost 5 family members to murder in my family home, including a sister and had 2 others wounded, 1 paralyzed and I have to say that I *STILL* disagree with the death penalty. I think it is wrong on soooo many levels. And while I don't blame people like Son of Samrai for being angry, I refuse to do what I consider losing my own humanity by demanding justice in the form of the death of another human being. I think it's wrong plain and simple. There is no way I'd ever think otherwise. I don't believe in an eye for an eye.. I don't believe in revenge. I don't know what justice would be, but I don't think it's anything that our laws can properly dish out. They can only do the best that they can and sometimes its not good enough and sometimes it's too much. I guess I just think that everyone gets whats coming to them in life. The people that murdered my family members for instance, they all got sentenced with no death penalty - but were all murdered in prison one by one.

You know I try to put myself in other peoples positions. Including people who murder. I think about what thier lives must have been like, and what made them do the things that they did, and I feel compassion. Some people might not understand that, and think it's dumb or whatever but it's just how I do things. I pity them. I think that's part of why I don't accept the death pentaly, because I can see that these people are human just like me. They've just made really horrible mistakes.

Demanding the death of someone is a purely emotional responce IMO. I totally agree with everything that Raz has just said. He's laid it out as clear as day.

I don't think I'm being a bleeding heart, or politically correct either. I've just had alot of time to live with this and to think about it for myself, and to get over and move on. It's the conclusion that I came to, to be compassionate that has helped me to do so. Everyone has tragedy in thier lives at one point or another, and bad things happen all of the time to people in all walks of life. I think that we can feel angry, bitter, hatered, or instead try to move forward. One of those options is definately more productive

Anyways, everyone is entitled to thier opinion about it, whether they have lost a loved one or not. Some things are just shared on a human level, and transcend personal experiences.