Discuss My Quote.

[Infinite Jest]

Well, personally I like a lot of pop music...the Beatles for instance...T-Rex, Madonna and the Ronettes even...the Walker Brothers and the Magnetic Fields...the Ramones ripped all their tunes from pop groups, and damn I love the Ramones! Blondie are pure pop

etc etc

But that's a matter of personal taste, I wouldn't condemn you for agreeing or disagreeing with it. Now, is pop destroying everything? No. It isn't. Every time I walk into town on a Friday or Saturday night, I walk past a bar full of bands playing dirty, underground, no hope punk...or metal....or DnB or psy-trance or whatever....the underground is still there. It will always be there..pop will always be there too, but so what? There's enough other music out there for you to listen to for the rest of your life without worrying about what the pop kids do....

As for "pop will eat itself". Phrase originally used in an NME review of Jamie Wednesday, who went on to become Carter The Unstoppable Sex Machine. The reviewer was taking a post-modernist approach to the review, arguing that pop music (in the broadest sense) was becoming so self-referential that it would implode in on itself - 'eat itself' if you will. The phrase was then picked up and used a bandname (by Pop Will Eat Itself, funnily enough). Who were also very self-referential. And post-modern. And stuff.

 

[vurtomatic]

Great, then why dont you start your own thread?

I cant believe this resurfaced only to be shit picked, I mean fark.
It seems like every one would like to add "
Insert topic of choice here is slowly destroying everything"
'cos they feel like it.

-Peace

now now... let's not get possesive

 

[Strawberry_lovemuffin]

Anti-establishment can be just as annoying and fake as mainstream, in my opinion.

Why can't you guys just live with the fact that some people don't feel the need to be "different" for the sake of being "different".

I spent all my life being excluded by elitist groups because I wasn't hip or weird or alternative enough. I say fuck that. I happen to like pop, and I happen to also be intelligent enough to realise it's manufactured (in the same way as many of your "genuine" artists are, too) and enjoy it anyway.

< to elitism in all it's forms.

 

[star_beats]

Anti-establishment can be just as annoying and fake as mainstream, in my opinion.

Why can't you guys just live with the fact that some people don't feel the need to be "different" for the sake of being "different".

I spent all my life being excluded by elitist groups because I wasn't hip or weird or alternative enough. I say fuck that. I happen to like pop, and I happen to also be intelligent enough to realise it's manufactured (in the same way as many of your "genuine" artists are, too) and enjoy it anyway.

< to elitism in all it's forms.

hear hear sista

 

[Adikkal]

It's all to easy to just bag out pop cos we're all so mad and enlightened that we realise its manufactured, whoa, fucken news wave there.

Pop is there because it needs to be there.
As others have mentioned, it is music there for those not inclined enough to go looking and seeking out their own music. It is music for people that aren't terribly passionate about music. That's not to say that you can't like pop and still be passionate about music.

Pop is a product. Pop is a business. Music is secondary.
The music has evolved into simply a by-product of the image they create and sell. Almost like a jingle to hook people into buying.
Not everyone shares the same love for music but they still need to be listening to something, enter pop music. Music of convenience. Pop music appeals to youngsters for this reason, its accessible and in their face, the thing is, the people manufacturing it have realised this and have the power in their hands to shape a whole culture through the images they choose to produce. It does have the power to decay the fabric of society, but its not related to music, don't fool yourself - the pop music industry is driven by $$$$$, they just realise that they can use music to make it.

This $$ central mentality is entrenched in the wider scope of society, and has seeped into the world of music as soon as it became evident people would buy it.

I.E. : Industries will hijack cultures/music to make money. People will join the fad, it will die out, the culture be tainted, but it will remain and evolve.

Word of the day: EXPLOITATION

Shoelace: Dude, i'm disagreein with ya on that man. You think tha fact Eminem sings on one song means he has no substance? Though you dig the rest of the album, the simple fact he has decided to try something new, and sing, means... exactly what?I hardly think he decided to sing to conform to pop culture cos, they don't want to hear him singing, he is a rapper and will be sold as that.

And about the neptunes, they have a long history of making beats for pop artists - you should probably thank fuck that they're involved in it at all - at least we can hear the occasional decent beat on the radio.

And i have to 3rd that motion, fuck elitism. It shits me. Remember, you can't be alternative without a mainstream.

Adikkal

 

[punch e punch]

As for "pop will eat itself". Phrase originally used in an NME review of Jamie Wednesday, who went on to become Carter The Unstoppable Sex Machine. The reviewer was taking a post-modernist approach to the review, arguing that pop music (in the broadest sense) was becoming so self-referential that it would implode in on itself - 'eat itself' if you will. The phrase was then picked up and used a bandname (by Pop Will Eat Itself, funnily enough). Who were also very self-referential. And post-modern. And stuff.

Wow! tHanks Simon I remember reading some pointless article many years ago which contained that quote and I always wondered who said it and what the fuck they meant.

And I think it's true. Pop is eating itself. Just look at the White Stripes. Of the currrent crop of "The... " bands, the music media ppl are saying that "rock is the new rock."
A friend suggested to me recently that these bands are "post-modernist", but i don't agree.
In my understanding, post-modernism is using old materials/techniques/elements etc. in a new way that is a reaction to the current trends.
But bands like the White Stripes aren't really reacting against anything. THey're just dressing themselves up in an old style, I believe, because it is easy to do and sure to sell by the bucketload.

Also, some might argue that sampling in electronic music is an example of pop eating itself. Or that it's an example of post-modernism.

oh yeah. and the band Pop Will Eat Itself were pretty cool %)

 

[plazma]

A call to national disunity...

Now, MC Shoelace, with respect to your quote.

Pop is a disease that is slowly destroying everything

I'd have to disagree. I agree with your general drift, but I view pop, and indeed pop culture, the entire plastic surgery enhanced fast food consuming buy clothes to cure your meaningless life retail therapy bullshit existence as being more of a symptom than the disease itself. Its the sad result of a society where being hip is more important than being happy, where consumption is the ultimate goal to aspire to. Is it any wonder that this society is producing depression in millions of people?

Also sadly indicative of the illness afflicting society is that these people are treated by medicating them to ignore the symptom that their depression is, so that they may continue their consumption oriented fast food 9-5 life under a chemical illusion of happiness. Guess what, a great many drug users fall under this category as well. Searching for meaning and finding none is what makes us depressed, drugs (any drugs) aren't going to cure that, its just going to keep that sickness trapped inside you, festering. Meaning is something that you have to find on your own.

I find pop obnoxious, and only by the barest sense of the word, music. Its nauseating crap, but it is only one facet of a greater whole, showing us an unpleasant reflection of the reality of the society in which we exist from day to day. So thus, to a certain extent Trillian and co are expressing similar sentiments, just covering a greater whole as opposed to a specific part.

Everyone who says they love pop music, that's fine. Do what fuels you. Just keep it off my fuckin airwaves, out of my space, and don't bring your hipster jeans, chunky white belts, stupid berets and fucking attitude anywhere near me, lest my desire for diversity be overwhelmed by the enjoyment of beating your plastic made up face through the back of your skull.

Now before you tell me that your music might be manufactured to be catchy and popular, and that my choice is too. The artists I listen to don't have a half life of 6 months and aren't picked out by a computer as to who's going to be popular.* Not to mention the fact they are inventive, and are not afraid of experimentation, as it doesn't risk lowering their record company expense account, not to mention the fact that they are indeed artists, as opposed to faux talent. I'm not going to be greatful that Pop music keeps my prefered genres of music obscure, because that's just ignoring the goddamn problem and being selfish. Pop music is the open sore, and the disease that causes it is our society.

Let us all raise our right hands and sing the international chorus of the pop culture anthem of plastic surgery, prozac, denial, consumption, depression and middle class indulgence. We are all one people, all credit cards are created equal, and guess what, most of you people reading this are no different.

*NB: Norah Jones was picked out by a computer programme as being the most likely to become a chart hit, a good few months before she ever did, just based on the relatively repetitive and catchy crap that she puts her name to. Read Newscientist if you don't believe me.

-plaz out-

 

[Infinite Jest]

Re: A call to national disunity...

Everyone who says they love pop music, that's fine. Do what fuels you. Just keep it off my fuckin airwaves, out of my space, and don't bring your hipster jeans, chunky white belts, stupid berets and fucking attitude anywhere near me, lest my desire for diversity be overwhelmed by the enjoyment of beating your plastic made up face through the back of your skull.
[/B]

Harsh words man. Speaking only for myself, as someone who name-checked a number of pop bands, I like all sorts of stuff. Looking from my desk to my CD player I see Parliament, Al Green, Asian Dub Foundation, Blur, the Cash Brothers, Renegade Soundwave and Pavement....and I don't wear a white belt

Room for everything my man....

punch e punch: I'd have thought the White Stripes were the shining example in that genre of a band who *didn't* sound like everything that's come before. I mean, you hear the Strokes, the Vines, the Hives, the Datsuns and you can name the song they're ripping off, 9 times out of 10...the White Stripes seem a little more interesting and original, to me. But I wonder if rock music (in the sense of loud guitar, bass and drums) isn't nearly dead - there's only so much you can do with the form, and it feels like most of it has already been done....

 

[Raving Loony]

Pop itself wouldn't be so bad if the artists were the complete package. The wrote, sung and played their work. But sadly that is all too uncommon. When I listen to music, I want to believe that I part of something special. When I listen to Nova, MMM and even JJJ... I don't get that feeling. But every now and then my ears tweak and the hairs on the back of my stand up as if to say "this is good for you". Heck, despite my ramblings I'm still a part-time Kylie boy . So it isn't all bad, but every one that makes feel great theres the dozens of tracks that just make me real angry. For every De La Soul, there are your J-Lo, Nelly, Selwyn, etc... who represent everything that I hate in the industry. I'm not musically minded enough to pick out the real quality, but I do expect to be given some credit and not be spoon-fed with Glitz-ey, glammoury trash all the time.

 

[Infinite Jest]

^^^
I got to agree with most of that...except this attitude that everyone has about pop acts not writing, playing and singing their own songs. I mean, the belief that that's important is relatively new. Go back to the pre-rock n roll era, or even most of the 60s, you'll find it was common for artists not to write their own songs. More facetiously, look at classical music - you're going to tell me there's something wrong with the Ode to Joy because the performer and the composer aren't the same person?

I hear you on 'wanting to feel that you're part of something special' - I think you can get that from good music, irrespective of genre or of the relationship between performer/composer - I think of 'Always on my Mind' by the Pet Shop Boys, or Motown, or...but you get my point

 

[katmeow]

Re: Re: A call to national disunity...

Room for everything my man....

*nods*

It could be said, that no matter what category your choice of music, books, clothes, movies, drugs, etc etc etc, falls under, it is all merely a form of escapism from everyday life.

Who are we to judge a person's preferences just because they differ from our own?

 

[Raving Loony]

Simon, of course there is a role for classical themes, doing covers, performing written-poetry in song. Lyrically you sometimes can't beat a bit of clever intertextuality. But when people do covers simly because it's an easy to do and are guarenteed to sell (eg, Boyzone doing Uptown Girl or Frenzal Rhomb doing that Living End cover) . IMO covers shouldn't be done unless there is genuine effort to put your own style into a song as a tribute to the originator. 'Always on my mind' by the Pet Shop Boys was a great example of that. The PetShop Boys have only ever done three covers and one of those was a hybrid between Where the streets have no name (u2) and Can't take my eyes off you (boys town gang, i think). The Pet Shop Boys are an example of pop, but done with class and I think that is what makes them special. So basically I if I am going listen, let alone buy an album of someones work. I at least expect them to be involved in much of the writing and music.

 

[-Thoth]

You cannot have alternative discourses without the prescense of a dominant one. Hence, pop is actually neccesary.

 

[punch e punch]

Re: Re: A call to national disunity...

punch e punch: I'd have thought the White Stripes were the shining example in that genre of a band who *didn't* sound like everything that's come before. I mean, you hear the Strokes, the Vines, the Hives, the Datsuns and you can name the song they're ripping off, 9 times out of 10...the White Stripes seem a little more interesting and original, to me. But I wonder if rock music (in the sense of loud guitar, bass and drums) isn't nearly dead - there's only so much you can do with the form, and it feels like most of it has already been done....

Yeh I didn't really mean to single out the White Stripes in particular. It's just that they're the most popular at the moment.

And I'm not saying that these bands' music is good or bad. I think it's good for what it is. But I think calling it "post-modernist" is giving it too much artistic merit.

"But I wonder if rock music (in the sense of loud guitar, bass and drums) isn't nearly dead - there's only so much you can do with the form, and it feels like most of it has already been done....."

I think that is the problem. Rock has been around for a long time now and there's not much that u can do within the rock format that hasn't already been done. It's so hard to come up with an original sound these days that alot of bands opt for taking an old sound and either pass it off as something new, or claim that they are "post-modern".
As I understand it, post-modernism is supposed to be about using the old elements in a new and original way, creating something in a new style.

Some ppl argue that u cant do anything new and original these days, so post-modernism is the only option. I think that's a cop-out. Art will always find new directions. But after all these years, rock might be struggling.