dirty towns 'r' us...

[Adikkal]

The question is,
Would we be more offended and disgusted if a well dressed and neatly groomed man started asking for money and hurling abuse?
Or just puzzled,
I can see it from both sides. Aesthetically, no, the 'dirty and unkempt' homeless people are not pleasing to the eye and generally are a depressing stimulus as you walk through the city streets, therefore most people choose to ignore them, which just perpetuates the whole cycle.
This makes the homeless people feel worthless, invisible, and sub-standard as a human being. Put yourself in their shoes and tell me if you wouldn't get pissed off at the world occasionally and vent by yelling abuse at the 'rich' and successful members of society while you are left to go back and sleep in the luxurious confines of your Big Screen TV box. The same box that the members of 'rich' society have discarded.
Seriously, think about the effect this type of shit would have on your ego. Its all well and good to say they should take advantage of the services the govt provide (which they should) but most of the time the inherent issue is not so much a situational, physical problem of having no place to stay, but from a complete destruction of their sense of self-worth.
Its more a mental problem than anything, you try breaking out of that.
Go and walk a kilometre in their tattered old shoes, then get back to me.
But with all that said, no doubt the next homeless person i pass on the street i'll avoid eye contact with becos its not something i want to deal with. I mean, i definitely pity them, but thats also part of the problem... being pitied by society is another damaging thing to the ego.
It is alot more complex than being simply without a home, its a crushing thing to happen to a person. So next time anyone whinges about the dirty nature of the city, cluttered up with ugly homeless peeps, try and view the world from their perspective.
Exercise empathy - then re-evaluate.
Peace
Adikkal

 

[Innocuous]

becoming homeless is not simply a case of being to lazy or drug fucked to care, of not wanting to change and 'letting yourself slip'. nor is escaping it as breathtakingly easy as happily picking up a dole check from centerlink and nicking over to the salvo's for a nice change of kit and a hot bath. please.
we've got it pritty good in australia and we do have a very passable walfare system, but its not perfect and people do 'slip through the safety net' as they put it so nicely on TV. to blame them for thier slipping seems rather like blaming the fever for the infection.
if i see somone that is dirty and unfed, i think about why it might be so, and if i've got the cash or some food i might try and do something to help, mostly i just hope they dont see the pity in my eyes, i dont exclaim how cluttered and filthy the little urchin is making my nice little cityscape. i'm not, i hope, that petty.
[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Innocuous ]
[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Innocuous ]

 

[fishbulb]

Originally posted by plazma:

Where the fuck are you supposed to take a piss if most of the public toilets in the city cost money to use, and shops won't let you inside them to use the toilet.

i can't remember ever having paid to go to the toilet in sydney, even though i worked in the cbd for 5 years. Of course, this isn't say to say that it doesn't happen - i never though i'd pay 5 bucks for a bottle of water either.
On the other hand, spare a thought for the Europeans. I spent 5 weeks over there mid last year, and there wasn't any occasion in Europe where i DIDN'T pay to use the bathroom in a public place. The prices ranged from about 20 cents in the middle of nowhere to $AU 4 underneath the Eiffel Tour.
I'm neither agreeing or disaagreeing with ya plaz, just commenting on how others have it

 

[vurtomatic]

to paraphrase winston churchill, we shape our cities as much as they shape us.
its quite pointless to blame the state of a city on any one particular factor, be it homeless people or the government or respectful individuals. i've always seen cities as entities unto themselves, an amalgamation of all the different lives they cradle. being macro organisms, they naturally reflect the parts of which they are the sum.
parts which we are.

 

[katmeow]

/\ /\ /\
well put vurt
I'll add more later

 

[neverwas]

note to plaz: if u read what was written before you got all high and mighty and hit the reply key u would see this thread wasnt solely bout homeless people. THERE IS A POINT!!!not that its unlcean to live here but mainly bout how dirty and unclean cities are becoming.UNFORTUANTLY homelessness is becoming a factor.AND...just so YOU UNDERSTAND...i use to work in a homeless and youth shelter...my family adopted yound adults who were thrown out and abused and homeless.so if you think im narrow minded or one sided THINK AGAIN! coz u dont seem to think at all some times
*shrugs*
i myself have a brother who lives on the streets.we were both thrown outa home when we were 16 not by choice...ive lived on the streets before...its not my choice of life...
im not saying march in there guns and all and kick people outa parks who have no where to go...but what i was tryin to point out is that the city of sydney is not doing itself any favours by not trying to absolve the rising issue. its all good to increase policeing with booze and drugs but what bout things like this public behavoir.what bout the ever increasing numbers of people sitting on conrers with signs asking for money.i have nothing agianst these people AT ALL!!! i just think its an issue that needs to be addressed
NOTE:those guys who were in the park drinkng...were there still today...this time they were throwing nuts at people pouring their cask wine into mount franklin bottles and drinkn their wine outa the bottles...
i would gladly invite anyone who lived on the streets home for a cooked meal and shower any day.
[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: *starfalls69* ]

 

[Taliana]

OK, personally, i dont think sydney has really changed, dirt wise/ and the amount of homeless people wise.
Im on two minds about this issue:
Most of the visible homeless people we see, are of two types,
one: those that sit on the side of the street on their ass with a stupid sign. And
two: the "dirty" ones, those with obvious mental problems (yes, many are mentally ILL, which pretty much explains why they come across as number two), the drunkens, etc.
Personally, the number ones i have no respect for... half the time these people are sitting there in decent clothes, with their head down to cover there face. Only about a week ago, i saw an asian girl sitting on the corner of market st and another st in Sydney city, with a sign (i was walking too fast to read it, but saw the first line or two)- she seemed pretty damn normal looking to me. And she had her head down in her lap covering up her face... Fair enough (however i DID notice how decent she looked at the time...) Anyway, a few days later, yet again i walk past, and what do i see, the SAME SIGN, with a young guy in ok clothes AGAIN with his face in his hand... its THESE kind of "homeless people" i have no respect for.
I sympathis with the number twos tho, 3/4 of the time, these people have had a fucken rough life, and living on the streets is what they know, give them a break. Of course WE know there are heaps of options, but fuck, half of them have psycological problems hence their being on the streets, alcoholism blah blah blah. Im not defending them, i do think it is wrong of them to hassle etc, but i think people should stop to think why they are there in the first place instead of just gettng pissed off because our beautiful city suddenly isnt so beautiful anymore.
Because it has always been there... sure it may have been nice during olympics, but fuck didnt the government like get them OFF the streets at that time to make us look better?

 

[neverwas]

^^^^thank you

 

[plazma]

Insofar as Western Civilisation is concerned, cities are almost universally NEVER clean places. Unless you're willing to institute such punishments as Singapore has, such as flogging for serious vandalism or graffiti, and such things as a fine of S$500 or a corrective work order for littering (A corrective work order involves wearing a lime green vest and walking around picking up rubbish)*. Its unlikely that you will see our cities get substantially cleaner. They never were clean in the first place.
Everyone that keeps saying that they're not bagging out homeless people, but that they don't like uncleanliness, and that homelessness is a factor in that, is basically contradicting themselves. You either have a problem with homeless people, or you don't.
As to the appearance of homeless people, I would not judge a book by its cover. You complain about the dirty nasty smelly homeless people, and then basically on the other hand say that anyone who isn't dirty, smelly or abusive must be someone IMPERSONATING a homeless person in order to milk you for cash.
I agree with Taliana, in that a lot of people on the streets are people who have mental problems, or who are mentally ill (much as I despise both of those phrases). They have nowhere to go, and certainly no networks of friends to aid them.
The best indications of the moral fibre of a society are not how it treats the rich and happy, but how it treats the poor and unhappy.
Judging by this thread, we shape up very pitifully indeed.
-plaz out-
*NB: Thanks go to biski for the advice on the Singaporean legal system! :D
[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: plazma ]

 

[neverwas]

well what can i say...in regards to the the dirtyness?! i went into the city today to pick up doon from his bus and to my amazement at 12pm in the day there were three guys sittingin th emiddle of the bus stop drinkn...POKING their mate with a stick to see if he was alive
there was also 1 guy passed out on the foot path
another guy *this is the worst* who was passed out when i walked pat him but when me and doon walked past he was doing a CRAP on the door way!!!
WELCOME TO SYDNEY PEOPLE!!! i will let doon tell u bout the details
[ 28 February 2003: Message edited by: *starfalls69* ]

 

[anfalicious]

Firstly, I think I'm better than all homeless people, but that's only because I think (well, know, but we wont get pedantic now will we) that I'm better than everyone.
Including all of you.
Anyhow, I've never really found hounded by homeless people. If someone comes up to me and asks me for some money, I'll give it to them if I can spare it.
Back to the original point of the thread: Dirty towns... Milan. Dead set the most disgusting piece of shit cess pool I have ever had the displeasure of setting foot in. Tagging (not even decent graf) everywhere, decrepid buildings, rubbish everywhere and a horrible smell to boot. The people match the city perfectly, every single person I was unfortunate enough to actually have to converse with was rude and unhelpful (and yes, I was at least attempting to speak Italian, so I wasn't doing the American Tourist thing). Unfortunately it made me lose all desire to see any other part of Italy that trip, or ever return to the country. I am also now convinced every good Italian came to Australia.

 

[vurtomatic]

i would suggest that the homeless, the dirty, the goverment are just the most visible/obvious factors or blames in this issue.
no one has mentioned the fact that, current/modern society is a consumable/disposable one. we are all mass consumers and we all contribute to the makeup of a city in her downtrodden glory.
we as a whole seem to not realise the import of looking after the environment which we have created to dwell in. and why should we, are our cities not a monumental stand against nature? we have created concrete behemoths to hold our fragile mortalities, we are the masters of our domains or so we like to think. we might not conciously decide to litter and yet, it has become entrenched in our mentalities that we can pretty much do what we want within our safety zones, within tolerance of our peers and our self-devised laws.
majority of us, myself included, seldom think about putting rubbish in its right place or recycle. i dont mean throwing big items onto streets, but what about the little plastic wrapping around a cigarrette box, the little wrapper around a chuppa chup, a bus or tram ticket, a cigarette butt? the small casual items that accumulates on the streets.
the packaging industry has embraced the recycling concepts for many years. package designs incoporate these concepts, designers go the extra mile to create "green" packaging, manufacturers are trying to create materials that do not impact the natural environment. but somewhere along the line, between the manufacturing plant to the shopping aisles to the products reaching our possession, the message of recycling is lost. despite all efforts taken to promote and actualise recycling, we, as consumers, are not receiving the message or it is not being assimilated into our lifestyles.
change the way we consume, change our perception of our environments and i very much believe the changes will naturally cascade into the streets we walk on.
on a side note, i rather live in a city with her dirt, grit, smog, age and character, than in a cardoard town put up for tourists.

 

[a_muse]

I think the reason for verbally abusing passers by is that homeless people do not wish to be stared at. They are forced to perform normally private acts in public because they do not have the luxury of houses. But that does not give anyone the right to stare at them.
Its a bit like someone peering through your bathroom window while you are in the shower.
I have been to Sydney and it has nothing on Amsterdam as far as dirtiness is concerned. Because there are no public toilets whatsoever the homed as well as the homeless openly piss in the streets. The entire city reeks of urine.
So I suggest you stay in Australia, starfalls69 and save your eyes and nose from further pollution.

 

[apollo]

People really need to make it clear whether they're expressing their opinion, presenting unarguable, well researched facts, or otherwise before they post. Not doing so leads to a lot of bullshit, and this is a prime example.
Kitty - the population of Sydney is around about 4 million.
Just how dirty is Sydney? How do we find out? I suppose we compare it to other cities, don't we. You don't have to look very far past Australia to see that this city is, by world standard, fucking clean and comparatively, free of beggars/homeless trouble makers.
IMHO, there's a few billion people on this planet who'd probably spit on us for what they've read in this thread, if they saw Sydney first.
In the Phillipines, an estimated 1.5 million children are on the streets pickpocketing, begging, trafficking drugs and working as prostitutes. That's just children.

- yes, they live there. Calcutta, India.
There's one fuck of a lot more where that came from. While it's a pity to see foul behaviour & so forth in the midst of our beautiful city... It's a part of life. Get over it.

 

[bisKi]

dont know if anyone else has noticed an increasing number of dirt and filthiness where they live, certain areas or what have you. but i for one am tired of looking at it and putting up with it.
This is not directed at anything or anyone, just responding to the question at the end I guess.
Where I live, it's not exactly pristine even though it has the tag "Green and Clean City" - there's still the smaller bits of rubbish such as cigarette packs, tissues etc. But how it got the tag - the government implemented the fine system where offenders can get slapped with a minimum S$500 fine or the CWO as plaz had pointed out. Now if that was to be implemented elsewhere, say Sydney - there'd be a thread complaining about it.
With progress and industrialisation, dirt and filth will always accumulate and start to show. It's not noticeable at first, but cigarette butts, and other little things do pile up. If anyone is tired of looking at the rubbish piling up and putting up with it - there is always volunteer work where one can help clean up the place, join the "Clean Up Australia Day" campaign that's held everyday. Tired of putting up with the rubbish - do your bit. Be proactive, not reactive. 8)
ps: the thing is though - the word dirty is extremely broad. For me and some others, a dirty city may be like the picture of Calcutta i the pic that Apollo has posted. Compared with most cities in Asia, especially the developing countries, the cities in Australia is already clean by a huge difference. And Apollo is not kidding with that picture.

 

[Riot Grrrl]

I've become habituated to the trash/wrappers, graffiti, smells of Sydney. I don't think i've actually said anything to anyone about it.
As for the dirt, Sydney hasn't a good weeks rain in months and months, I'm not surprised that theres "dirt" and bad smells everywhere..
As for the homeless people...So what if a homeless guy pissed on the footpath, what are you gunna do about it? tell him he's a bad bad man? No of course not, your gunna come onto bluelight and have a whinge.
PS. This topis is very misleading.

 

[doVe]

Just thought i'd say something..
I hate it when people harass me for money.. i have really frightening looking people asking for it everytime i go to college. i am sure nobody would even blink if one of them knocked me out and ran off with my lousy five dollars. And they don't ask for 'change' or so anymore, it's nominations like 2 dollars! not very little to throw off to some unknown person who no doubt will carry it to the bottle shop.
BUT.. i hate every 'beggar' equally. If i don't get asked by a half-trashed people i get harassed by a million different charity organisations. IF i chose to fund another charity helping kids in god knows what country, couldn't i do it after seeing one of the million ads on tv?
So in this case, normal beggars are easier to handle, they don't ask you to sign your name on anything and lose 'just around a dollar a day' to a photograph of a child you are presumably sponsoring. And if we really want to help, shouldn't we come up with something to fix things here, rather than trying to run to every single homeless person overseas.. i'm sure there are enough to help here.
but the situation with the homeless is quite similar to the situation with aboriginals in sydney. e.g a normal person thinks every homeless person drinks, does drugs and just lazes around with no intentions of working etc. most of the aboriginals in sydney, that i see, sit around the station with no idea what is going on.. and then again, elsewhere in australia they live life to the max as a proud nation. but we don't see that side in our everyday life...
it's all oh so difficult. guess it's easier just to look the other way like 99% of people on the street.

 

[Trillian]

Originally posted by doVe:
if we really want to help, shouldn't we come up with something to fix things here, rather than trying to run to every single homeless person overseas.. i'm sure there are enough to help here.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive somehow. In fact, in a lot of ways the two issues are entirely unrelated. To fix our domestic situation, we need domestic legislative reform. We need a greater amount of our annual state and federal budget to be allocated to the support networks and social infrastructure that aim to alleviate poverty.
To donate money to an organisation providing overseas aid is to recognise that most of the countries where the funds are being directed have had a complete breakdown of such infrastructure. Generally, your money will be going to provide basic necessities that the government is not or cannot provide.
Similar to an extent to what many Australian charities professed aims, but entirely unrelated on the extensiveness and extremity of the context that international aid agencies work in.
[ 03 March 2003: Message edited by: Trillian ]

 

[melancholic]

starfalls the initial point of your post may have been about the general dirtiness of sydney but i think some people took it as an sledge of the homeless because you basically only gave one reason for the city being dirty, homeless and or dirty/drunk people.
while i get annoyed with people asking me for money, i am aware how unjust my feelings are and i try to give money to the odd person when i have it, which at the moment is not very often.
it does really piss me off though, when the scammers get you. the tall guy with long hair on george st who comes up and goes 'hey mate, can i ask you a favour, look i really need to get back home to byron, the train leaves tonight at 6pm, ive 95 bucks *shows money*, ive got me smokes, ive got some weed, i just need a couple more dollars to buy the ticket.. look i can give you a smoke if you like' the first time, i gave this guy all my change, which was a bit under 2 bucks. he asked me a again two weeks later, same story. i just said yeah whatever. hes now asked me a third time, though probably around a couple months later - its just annoying..
or the guy at the qvb, who rides around on an old bike after 9pm up until about 12am, asking anyone and everyone for money. because im often there waiting for buses at night, ive encountered this guy many many times. once again, the first time, and the second time, i gave him money. now its just a fucken staring contest cos he knows im gonna tell him to fuck off cos hes so fucking rude... this annoys me!

 

[The_Fuel]

I think this thread is a joke...
People post their thoughts here, more so their opinons, and then get some other jurk trying to turn it around on them by making ill fated assumptions about them through connitations in the thread, that were obviously not meant that way.
I think its a VERY valid point that a lot of these people dont give a fuck and are quite happy living on the streets begging for money. I have had a few friends who have done work for some of the charities around Sydney, and they have their fingers on the pulse. Begging can earn you a lot of money, sometimes more than retail work...
And personally, i have never met a single "polite" begger....and i will acknoledge that that doesn't mean there aren't any "polite" ones out there, but hell, from my experience can you blame me for doubting that there are.
As a side note though, wasn't there some sort of Sydney council scheme during the 2000 olypics to move all the homeless out of Sydney for the periods of the games? or was that just some bullshit rumour pushed out by the opposition?