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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Stimulants Dirty stimulant high

What was your route of administration and how much did you take? Do you think it's likely that you took too much? I will grant you that doing too much definitely sucks but it's also not too hard to avoid if you mind your dosing and manage your comedowns carefully. Eat, take some vitamins, shower, and sleep. Go to work, don't slack on your duties, and personally I like Adderall / d-amphetamine for productivity and meth for recreational purposes. Occasionally I'll switch it up for α-PVP, 2-FMA, or some cathinone drug or another recreational stim along those lines.

Point is: segregate your time into productivity and recreation, and use the appropriate stimulant for either scenario (just use responsibly). A small dose of a benzo usually pushes just the right amount back against strong stimulants. If I get the balance right, it's puts me in a flow state. Just be cautious using benzos; be aware of the potential for dependency there and avoid it by avoiding tolerance to benzos.

Already addicted to benzos but that was a 0.1g shot IV. Not even morphine or Xanax could put me down after 5 days awake I began to go into a psychosis. So who knows maybe it wasnt meth or it was like super meth.
 
I became to notice i think i like opiods to. I am liking kratom alot . I have never done oxy or heroïne but i think that would be way to dangerous for my addictive personality . I suffer from severe depression and personality disorder . I tried many things , you think an opiod could ever be used for depression ?
Absolutely they can.
Back in the early to mid 1900's, opioids were actually the go-to for psychiatric issues like depression, psychosis, suicidal ideation.
And they worked. But once opioids started becoming demonized, they decided they were "too addictive" and swapped them out for what we know today as the "SSRI's".
I've used opioids to manage my depression & mental illness for a long time & they really do help. But I suppose it could also be a disaster if the person has no self control or takes them by the handfuls without regard for their tolerance or anything of that nature.

I take mostly buprenorphine now a days & while it doesn't take away my depression & anxiety as well as a full agonist (aka : heroin, etc..), it does still shut off that part of my brain that constantly wants to self destruct or be suicidal. Not even SSRIs/SNRI's have done that for me.
 
Already addicted to benzos
Shit man, ween down from daily use and spread out your benzo consumption so you can enjoy them again and they it's more cost effective taking this approach as well. I usually people to avoid becoming obsessed with just one drug. It's better to vary what you take, in my opinion, so as to avoid drug dependency, never mind that fuzzy, bullshit term, addiction, to etymology of which means literally "spoken for" – that's why "diction" is in its roots. Kick that dependency / bad habit before it compromises your freedom, and don't play into societal expectations regarding recreational drug use.

but that was a 0.1g shot IV.
That's too much, particularly with little to no tolerance and via direct injection. No wonder. That's far too intense to enjoy. Think about it like this → the difference between Adderall (amphetamine sulfate, et al.) and Meth (methamphetamine.hcl) is relatively small in terms of pharmacodynamics. Chemically meth is the n-methyl derivative of amphetamine. They only differ by one carbon and two tiny hydrogens attached to the nitrogen atom. The exact same differences exist between MDA and MDMA. So when you consider how many mgs of Adderall doctors typically prescribe to patients – and how 90 mg spread out over the day is considered a hefty daily dose – it seems unwise and unhealthy to shoot up 100 mg of meth. Even if you have an initial rush you're going to have to deal with being spun the fuck out and useless for hours and hours after that. And there's also the increased chance of having a life-altering, crippling stroke which is a real threat to people mainlining copious amounts of crystal meth.

It's like if once a lunar cycle on the full moon a big group of us get together a throw a full moon lunar rave event and everyone takes 20 mg hits of the drug, Colour, aka 4-hydroxy-methylethyltryptamine or 4-HO-MET. Most people take one or two hits, and some daring types take three, even four hits, four really being a challenge. Yet for some reason, at each party, you consistently take eight hits all at once, a whopping 160 mg chugged down with a few gulps of our favorite non-alcoholic beverage. And you survive each time, but not without dealing with an overwhelming and exhausting experience until you convince yourself that you must just not like psychedelics and can't understand why others say they do.

What I'm saying is: try taking less and via a different RoA. Give your poor veins a chance to recover if you're mainlining a lot. Chances are you'll be alive a lot longer than you might expect to be, and you only get this one body, just one mostly hairless chattering primate homo sapiens sapiens. The final set of teeth on those things, for example come in kinda early, and then you get four more "wisdom" teeth that are often impacted and formerly a much bigger cause of human deaths…

Not even morphine or Xanax could put me down after 5 days awake I began to go into a psychosis.
Yeah, anyone will if you let your dopamine deplete and combine that with sleep deprivation. Meth. You're doing it wrong.

So who knows maybe it wasnt meth or it was like super meth.
No, it was meth. Most people wouldn't swallow down three back-to-back 30 mg IR Adderalls followed by an addition 10 mg dose of it for the road. Most people would expect to feel like hot wet garbage if they took that much. So trust me – this is essentially doing the equivalent or worse with a more potent drug. And I'm not trying to come down on you like some self-righteous Dudley Do-Right prick, either. I'm an avid fan and user of recreational drugs, a self-styled psychonaut (corny as that sounds), former clandestine chemist, and civilized peace advocate interesting in defunding police departments, decriminalizing drug possession, and eventually ending the so-called Drug War and repealing global drug prohibition. I'm something of a heathen Libertine (though I'm no Marquis de Sade or anything), so believe me when I say, "take better care of yourself; you'll be glad you did later while those around you who might not heed that type of advise wither away in ignoble atrophy, never knowing the satisfaction of long-game, long-term gratification that comes after a spell of self-discipline life balancing.

Either way, let us know how it goes, and also remember it's ok to ask for help. All of us are only human – babbling monkey beasts with ridiculously protracted terms of infancy, childhood, and adolescence compared to other mammals.
 
Absolutely they can.
Back in the early to mid 1900's, opioids were actually the go-to for psychiatric issues like depression, psychosis, suicidal ideation.
And they worked. But once opioids started becoming demonized, they decided they were "too addictive" and swapped them out for what we know today as the "SSRI's".
I've used opioids to manage my depression & mental illness for a long time & they really do help. But I suppose it could also be a disaster if the person has no self control or takes them by the handfuls without regard for their tolerance or anything of that nature.

I take mostly buprenorphine now a days & while it doesn't take away my depression & anxiety as well as a full agonist (aka : heroin, etc..), it does still shut off that part of my brain that constantly wants to self destruct or be suicidal. Not even SSRIs/SNRI's have done that for me.
Some other guy said suboxone was an antagonist? I am rlly interested cause my depression is unbearable . I have done medication which ruined me more like the usual ssri's class . I don't even know why these are called anti depression meds honestly ? I know suboxone has good pain relief . I know a guy that gets it prescribed . What can i do ? I suffer so bad since age 12 and i am now 32 . I have personality disorder's .
 
Be careful with such "feelings". Yes, the primary amine, amphetamine, has serotonergic activity, just not as much as the secondary amine, methamphetamine.

I've copied some data over from Reddit on monoamine releasing agents so you can compare.

NOTE: Please keep in mind lower values correspond to higher binding affinities + more release or more reuptake inhibition. In other words, less is more. You can see right away that amphetamine is a bigger releaser of norepinephrine (read: adrenaline) than either isomer of methamphetamine and it also causes greater reuptake of this neurotransmitter as well. I know this because its IC50 (nM) value is 7.07 for NE release while its NE reuptake inhibition, measured as a Ki (nM) value, is 38.9. These values are lower than those listed in rows 2 and 3 of Table 1 corresponding to methamphetamines isomers. I hope this makes sense.

Also: NE = norepinephrine | 5-HT = serotonin | DA = dopamine

Table 1

DrugNE ReleaseNE Uptake5-HT Release5-HT UptakeDA ReleaseDA Uptake
(+)-Amphetamine7.0738.91,7653,83024.834
(-)-Methamphetamine28.52344,64014,0004164,840
(+)-Methamphetamine12.348.07362,13724.5114
(-)-Ephedrine72.4225>10,000>50,0001,3504,398
(+/-)-MDMA77.446256.62383761,572
Cocaine>10,000779>10,000304>10,000478
RTI-55>10,0005.89>10,0001>10,0000.83
RTI-229>10,00019.5>10,000362>10,0002.15
Source: Amphetamine-Type Central Nervous System Stimulants Release Norepinephrine More Potently Than They Release Dopamine and Serotonin, Rothman et. al.

Measurement: IC50 (nM) for release / Ki (nM) for uptake




Table 2

DrugNE ReleaseDA Release5-HT Release
4-FA2851.5939
4-MA22.244.153.4
(d)-Amphetamine7.1110.31,765
Benzylpiperazine621756,050
Cathine15.068.3-
(l)-Cathinone1,206.218.52,366
(l)-ephedrine43.1236>10,000
(d)-ephedrine2182,104>10,000
(d)-Methamphetamine48924.5736
(l)-Methamphetamine2344,480>10,000
(l)-Methcathinone70714.81772
MDA108190160
MDMA11027872
Phenmetrazine50.41317,765
Psuedoephedrine31121988>10,000
Source: Releasing Agents - Release Affinities of Selected Compounds, References 4-9

Measurement: Ki (nM) for release



Table 3

DrugNE UptakeDA UptakeNET BindingDAT Binding
(d)-methylphenidate4628408139
(d/l)-methylphenidate31241,560105
(d)-ethylphenidate247242,479276
(d/l)-ethylphenidate408824,824382
Source: Ethylphenidate - Pharmacodynamics, References 7-9

Measurement: Ki (nM) for transporter binding, IC50 for uptake

EDIT: Getting to my point finally, d-amphetamine's IC50 (nM) value for 5-HT release is 1,765 whereas d-methamphetamine's value is 736, quite a good bit lower.
But the difference in dopamine release is not much with amps or meth ? 24.8 compared to 24.5 .
 
Some other guy said suboxone was an antagonist? I am rlly interested cause my depression is unbearable . I have done medication which ruined me more like the usual ssri's class . I don't even know why these are called anti depression meds honestly ? I know suboxone has good pain relief . I know a guy that gets it prescribed . What can i do ? I suffer so bad since age 12 and i am now 32 . I have personality disorder's .
Suboxone is both an agonist and antagonist.
It is as partial agonist at the mu receptor and an antagonist at the kappa and delta receptors.

It can also act as an antagonist at mu depending on the circumstance.
For example if you take suboxone and then try to take heroin, the suboxone will block the heroin from attaching at mu.
The naloxone in it is next to useless, so don't worry about that.

Some theorize Suboxone is good for depression because it's kappa receptor antagonism blocks dynorphins, which our body make when we're stressed, anxious or feeling dysphoric.

I believe kappa antagonism is helpful, but I think it's just the fact that it agonizes mu that it helps depression.
Cause non-kappa antagonists like heroin also helped my depression.

The same parts of the brain that are affected by physical pain are also affected by depression, so taking an opioid of course is gonna help some one's depression.
They're called antidepressants because Big Pharma is a scam and needed them to sound like they work. The proof is now coming out that serotonin doesn't necessarily play a role in depression at all. So they lied for decades to push these drugs onto depressed people.

I hear you man, I've had major depressive disorder & borderline ever since I was around 12-15 & I'm now going on 35.
My only issue with suboxone is once it stops helping to lift your mood, all it does is make me more tired & constipated unfortunately.
 
Suboxone is both an agonist and antagonist.
It is as partial agonist at the mu receptor and an antagonist at the kappa and delta receptors.

It can also act as an antagonist at mu depending on the circumstance.
For example if you take suboxone and then try to take heroin, the suboxone will block the heroin from attaching at mu.
The naloxone in it is next to useless, so don't worry about that.

Some theorize Suboxone is good for depression because it's kappa receptor antagonism blocks dynorphins, which our body make when we're stressed, anxious or feeling dysphoric.

I believe kappa antagonism is helpful, but I think it's just the fact that it agonizes mu that it helps depression.
Cause non-kappa antagonists like heroin also helped my depression.

The same parts of the brain that are affected by physical pain are also affected by depression, so taking an opioid of course is gonna help some one's depression.
They're called antidepressants because Big Pharma is a scam and needed them to sound like they work. The proof is now coming out that serotonin doesn't necessarily play a role in depression at all. So they lied for decades to push these drugs onto depressed people.

I hear you man, I've had major depressive disorder & borderline ever since I was around 12-15 & I'm now going on 35.
My only issue with suboxone is once it stops helping to lift your mood, all it does is make me more tired & constipated unfortunately.
I use ghb for my depression , but its to addictive and like you say with subox negative effects appear. At least with suboxone you don't get psychological addicted right ? I have seen many therapist but its just seems like all of that is a scam to . Can't rlly tell what useful information a clinical psychologist has what any other random person also can say . So i am negative towards therapy to . Everything just feels as shit . I am still inclined to try ketamine . Depression is basically my life. I do watch youtube vids about depression . I try go to gym though . Also about the serontonin part , i never felt more depressed after pushing all my serotonin out with mdma so i indeed doubt the serontonin hypothese . But i am no neuro science so i have probally no clue what i talk about .
 
Suboxone is both an agonist and antagonist.
It is as partial agonist at the mu receptor and an antagonist at the kappa and delta receptors.

It can also act as an antagonist at mu depending on the circumstance.
For example if you take suboxone and then try to take heroin, the suboxone will block the heroin from attaching at mu.
The naloxone in it is next to useless, so don't worry about that.

Some theorize Suboxone is good for depression because it's kappa receptor antagonism blocks dynorphins, which our body make when we're stressed, anxious or feeling dysphoric.

I believe kappa antagonism is helpful, but I think it's just the fact that it agonizes mu that it helps depression.
Cause non-kappa antagonists like heroin also helped my depression.

The same parts of the brain that are affected by physical pain are also affected by depression, so taking an opioid of course is gonna help some one's depression.
They're called antidepressants because Big Pharma is a scam and needed them to sound like they work. The proof is now coming out that serotonin doesn't necessarily play a role in depression at all. So they lied for decades to push these drugs onto depressed people.

I hear you man, I've had major depressive disorder & borderline ever since I was around 12-15 & I'm now going on 35.
My only issue with suboxone is once it stops helping to lift your mood, all it does is make me more tired & constipated unfortunately.
Also kratom but the effects only last 2 hours and way to expensive for me .
 
I use ghb for my depression , but its to addictive and like you say with subox negative effects appear. At least with suboxone you don't get psychological addicted right ? I have seen many therapist but its just seems like all of that is a scam to . Can't rlly tell what useful information a clinical psychologist has what any other random person also can say . So i am negative towards therapy to . Everything just feels as shit . I am still inclined to try ketamine . Depression is basically my life. I do watch youtube vids about depression . I try go to gym though . Also about the serontonin part , i never felt more depressed after pushing all my serotonin out with mdma so i indeed doubt the serontonin hypothese . But i am no neuro science so i have probally no clue what i talk about .
Suboxone won't cause as much euphoria (if any) as heroin or a full agonist would.
But yes, it can still be psychologically addictive. It is still an opioid after all.
And I'd say if you have no tolerance or only a tolerance to kratom, your first several times with suboxone (at any dose) is most likely going to get you high, maybe even make you a little sick, because it's incredibly potent. Suboxone can be used recreationally by people without a tolerance & it can still become mentally addictive.
Suboxone is also extremely long acting, which means your dose the following day isn't gonna feel any better really & you'll quickly get diminishing returns. So IMO, while it can help depression it won't be as consistent, since your blood levels hardly ever come down if you dose daily & eventually your body just learns to adapt around this.
 
Correct. The main difference seems to be serotonergic release.
To be honest looking at the binding table , i think its the NE release that makes the most difference. The double amount of serontonin binding still doesnt seem to do much considering no amount of normal amps give me any serontonin effect . But meth seems to release almost zero noradrenaline compared to normal amps . Would you agree ?
 
Suboxone won't cause as much euphoria (if any) as heroin or a full agonist would.
But yes, it can still be psychologically addictive. It is still an opioid after all.
And I'd say if you have no tolerance or only a tolerance to kratom, your first several times with suboxone (at any dose) is most likely going to get you high, maybe even make you a little sick, because it's incredibly potent. Suboxone can be used recreationally by people without a tolerance & it can still become mentally addictive.
Suboxone is also extremely long acting, which means your dose the following day isn't gonna feel any better really & you'll quickly get diminishing returns. So IMO, while it can help depression it won't be as consistent, since your blood levels hardly ever come down if you dose daily & eventually your body just learns to adapt around this.
Would you say suboxone is more or less addictive then kratom ? I mean i don't rlly see myself redosing suboxone .. unlike kratom .
 
To be honest looking at the binding table , i think its the NE release that makes the most difference.
It isn't, and this isn't just my own personal theory, conjecture, or whatever. It's been established that meth's serotonin activity is what triggers both the more euphoric experience and the increase in neurotoxicity, especially when coupled with a high body temperature. This sort of serotonergic activity – releasing serotonin from presynaptic storage – is also responsible for MDMA's neurotoxicity. But keeping things in perspective, let's not forget that ethyl alcohol – you know, booze? – is also neurotoxic and kills brain cells every time we imbibe it.

The double amount of serontonin binding still doesnt seem to do much considering no amount of normal amps give me any serontonin effect .
I'm not following you there. Careful not to overestimate your ability to discern the exact neurotransmitters involved in a particular high.

But meth seems to release almost zero noradrenaline compared to normal amps . Would you agree ?
No, not really. Amphetamine's NE release is 7.07 to meth's 12.3 (comparing the same isomers, obviously). As a reminder, lower values in the chart = greater effect it has on that neurotransmitter. Zeroing in on norepinephrine, we can see right away that d-amphetamine has a more pronounced effect as a norepinephrine releasing agent and as a reuptake inhibitor of same. See?

CompoundNorepinephrine ReleaseNorepinephrine Reuptake
(+)-Amphetamine7.0738.9
(+)-Methamphetamine12.348.0

But in general, they both definitely affect norepinephrine – or perhaps an easier way of thinking of NE is to consider it the basic equivalent of adrenaline.
The biggest value disparity exists between their two values vis-à-vis 5-hydroxytryptamine, aka serotonin. Amphetamine's value under 5-HT Release is 1,765, while the same value for meth is 736.
 
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It isn't, and this isn't just my own personal theory, conjecture, or whatever. It's been established that meth's serotonin activity is what triggers both the more euphoric experience and the increase in neurotoxicity, especially when coupled with a high body temperature. This sort of serotonergic activity – releasing serotonin from presynaptic storage – is also responsible for MDMA's neurotoxicity. But keeping things in perspective, let's not forget that ethyl alcohol – you know, booze? – is also neurotoxic and kills brain cells every time we imbibe it.


I'm not following you there. Careful not to overestimate your ability to discern the exact neurotransmitters involved in a particular high.


No, not really. Amphetamine's NE release is 7.07 to meth's 12.3 (comparing the same isomers, obviously). As a reminder, lower values in the chart = greater effect it has on that neurotransmitter. Zeroing in on norepinephrine, we can see right away that d-amphetamine has a more pronounced effect as a norepinephrine releasing agent and as a reuptake inhibitor of same. See?

CompoundNorepinephrine ReleaseNorepinephrine Reuptake
(+)-Amphetamine7.0738.9
(+)-Methamphetamine12.348.0

But in general, they both definitely affect norepinephrine – or perhaps an easier way of thinking of NE is to consider it the basic equivalent of adrenaline.
The biggest value disparity exists between their two values vis-à-vis 5-hydroxytryptamine, aka serotonin. Amphetamine's value under 5-HT Release is 1,765, while the same value for meth is 736.
Thanks for your honesty . I actually ment the table below the one you showing shows different stats weirdly or am i rlly tweaking my balls now ?
Its not weird that i overestimate what neurotransmitter is active because every drug that works mainly on serontonin is always directly noticble to me . Like 4 fa /4fma even more mdma .i have never felt any serontonin effects in any amount with regulair amps . But i am probally wrong and the double binding would be greatly noticable i dunno i am no neuro scientist lol .
 
Would you say suboxone is more or less addictive then kratom ? I mean i don't rlly see myself redosing suboxone .. unlike kratom .
I guess it depends on who you are & what your definition of "addictive" is.
I've never been able to get any enjoyable opioid effects from kratom. Doesn't matter the brand or even the amount, I never feel anything even remotely enjoyable.
Even with no tolerance. So it wasn't even worth my time of redosing.

So obviously for me, I'd say Suboxone is much more addictive. Cause at least it's a semi-synthetic thebaine derivative & is incredibly potent. So you know to expect SOME opioid effects out of it. With no tolerance, it can actually be quite enjoyable.
There was a study done once where they took ex-opioid addicts who no longer had a tolerance & adminstered either buprenorphine or heroin & then had them identify which was which. And most of them identified buprenorphine (the main ingredient in suboxone) as being heroin.

If by addiction you mean more likely to redose during the day, then yeah, you won't necessarily have that issue with subs, but subs are also so much more long acting that they're likely to cause physical dependence (also some times referred to as "addiction") than kratom. The withdrawals from suboxone are much more drawn out & probably more intense than kratom withdrawals. Especially since it can go on for 30+ days.

People underestimate how potent bupe is, because it doesn't cause as much euphoria, but to be on an incredibly potent partial agonist for more than a year, is setting yourself up for a much stronger dependence, although you won't necessarily be going into withdrawals several times a day like you would on kratom.
But no, typically you won't find yourself redosing subs all day. Although there have been times where I've split my doses for more pain relief, because although suboxone is long acting, it's actual pain relief properties only last 4-6hrs.
 
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Already addicted to benzos but that was a 0.1g shot IV. Not even morphine or Xanax could put me down after 5 days awake I began to go into a psychosis. So who knows maybe it wasnt meth or it was like super meth.
It was probably good meth.100mg i.v.shot is power⚡⚡⚡
 
Thanks for your honesty . I actually ment the table below the one you showing shows different stats weirdly or am i rlly tweaking my balls now ?
No, good eye. It's possible that I made a copy & paste error; I'll have to go check the source. Sorry about that.

Its not weird that i overestimate what neurotransmitter is active because every drug that works mainly on serontonin is always directly noticble to me .
Ok, but consider for a moment – there are two types of recreational drugs that are chiefly serotonergic:

1. empathogens/entactogens, such as: MDMA, MDA, 4-FA, Methylone, 4-Methylaminorex, and​
2. psychedelic/entheogens, such as LSD, Mushrooms, Mescaline,​
There are also SSRI antidepressants, but staying in the realm of BDD we'll visit that subject some other time. For now, you're saying you can subjectively delineate between these two drug classes, separately, and can discern when and if something has an effect on 5-HT in your body?

Like 4 fa /4fma even more mdma .i have never felt any serontonin effects in any amount with regulair amps .
Ok, so I think your definition of "serotonin effects" is perhaps too narrow. I agree w/you insofar as to say that no, neither amphetamine nor methamphetamine feel like "rolling" or "tripping" in either traditional sense. It's a different high. That does not mean however serotonin isn't getting involved. For that matter, cocaine has a reuptake inhibiting effect on 5-HT along with dopamine and adrenaline.

But i am probally wrong and the double binding would be greatly noticable i dunno i am no neuro scientist lol .
Yeah I hear ya, it's confusing when conflicting data exists among the various sources, studies, opinions, etc. I have to take it all in and use my best judgment to discern where the actual truth is, I too being not employed as a scientist of the neuro persuasion. So please take what I'm saying on these topics with a grain of proverbial NaCl. Good luck :)
 
Strattera feels so so dirty

Just thinking about it

Wellbutrin is an amphetamine substitute meant for taking everday
 
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