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Differences of tryptamine salt forms and the AcO - HO relation

Psychonautical

Psychonautical

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
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London Ont
Recently i have discovered i have the option to acquire either one of these substances.

From my recent experiments with 4-aco-dmt, 4-aco-dipt and 4-ho-mipt, 5-meo-mipt
I have some to the conclusion that the 4-aco group actually makes a huge difference, almost like light and dark.

But the subtleties of each one, vary greatly between HCL and F

4-aco-dmt F is subtle deep, and wonderous, while maintaining a sense of balance and distinction between you and the world. I've noticed that the F. is also longer lasting than the HCL version. But the HCL version has more general psychedelia and strength, while lasting a shorter amount of time.

4-aco-dipt hcl. is a jarring physically and mentally intense 4 hour roller coaster ride, which leaves your mind incredibly open for a day or so after wards.
Interesting, but not fun.

4-ho-mipt: Was god awful, i did not enjoy it at all. Painful electric body sensations surging through you head to toe. Psychedelic, but definitely not pleasant

5-meo-mipt has a beautiful body sensations reminiscent of mdma.
with almost all of the speediness and psychedelia of a mild phenethylamine.


Now, my //question is.

4-aco-det HCL
vs
4-ho-det Fumarate.

Would 4-aco-det HCL be stronger than 4-ho-det F.
because it is HCL
or would the 4-ho group provide more psychedelia// general intensity physically.

Mind you, i am not looking for strange physical sensations that will detour me from enjoying the compound.


Its a hard choice to decide.

But from personal experience, it seems that the 4-aco group contains less body vibes, attached to a smoother ride.

I was just wondering if anyone could give me any personal experience between the two compounds.

I know that CZ-74 is a very very uncommon RC which is why im jumping all over it, I would just like to know what any descernable difference between the two, from personal experience, which would then allow me to paint a portrait of just exactly which one would work the best.
 
All I have tried is 4-aco-det fum. and it was incredibly easy on my body and had a great energy in my head that translated into beautiful thought patterns and profound-feeling ideas. I did a pretty low dose, but i enjoyed it immensely
 
alrighty, so that means that technically the 4-ho-det would be slightly stronger, and require slightly less.


I have a feeling i will be getting the HCl... more experiments can be conducted that way ;)
 
It's a fascinating subject discerning differences in compound forms sometimes taken for granted, no doubt.
But I would really prefer a single place for discussing salt forms and 4-AcO and 4-HO differences and their compared effects.
Next thing you know there are 10 threads all for slightly different compounds but basically the same phenomena.
Note that there was also a thread started about 4-AcO conversion and pharmacodynamics
that also touched the subject of related consequences of it. If you don't mind I am generalizing this thread. I do it also because I want to encourage a broader analysis on the subject in the future.
Of course I also hope that answers you have in regard to these specific compounds will also be answered duly! :)

Psychonautical since I don't want to be too intrusive in this case, just yell and I'll change it back.
 
I also think that AcO group makes a big difference.

Mushrooms and 4-AcO-DMT don't even compare. The HO and PO groups of the mushroom alkaloids give me a much more mind bending, anxious trip.

4-AcO-DMT was much smoother yet also incredibly deep.

It was very reminiscent of LSD but more powerful in its "pushing you deep and making you see things you previously repressed"

I'm actually very surprised that Shulgin wouldn't have investigated 4-AcO-DMT or any other -AcO's in TIHKAL.
 
which is almost equally shameful (or another word not that harsh), at least 4-AcO-DMT didn't get the respect and distinction it deserved although it's hard to blame the guy - he had to start with such a narrow frame of reference.

It's easy to say that the difference is easily felt, doesn't history teach us that when you do like blind studies these things are notoriously hard to tell? The power of the mind and our preconceptions is underappreciated, the placebo effect comes to mind as well...
 
I've had 4-HO-DET in what I assume is the fumarate form since it has lasted for a long time without degrading into the black goo that most people find theirs turning into. I have posted in the past about ethocin aka CZ-74, which to me gave off the "strange physical sensations that will detour me from enjoying the compound."-vibe that you said you wanted to avoid. But other reports I've read of 4-AcO-DET seem milder and a little more subtle than the 4-HO ester, much like that of other indolol tryptamines vs. acetate compounds. Another thing to consider is the weight in dosing as compared to other version of the same salt. I suppose my experience might have been effected by my inattention to the form it was in at the time of dosing, I should have checked with the The Sprig and Sandy 4-Substituted Tryptamine Dosing Chart first =D
 
tryptamine hydrochlorides vs. tryptamine fumarates

I'm wondering what the differences between the different salt forms of tryptamines is (as far as I know, the ones sold as salts are either hydrochlorides or fumarates). well, first of all it is clear that fumarates are less potent per weigth than hydrochlorides. but there are also pros of them for the buyer, I guess - I think they are more stable, is that true? if yes, can someone quantify this difference in stability? what about water solvability, are HCls probably better water solvable than fumarates and therefore better suited for nasal or rectal application (or probably also the other way round)? and finally what is about vaporizing? it is clear that for that purpose the freebase form is strongly preferable, yet it is still possible in my experience to successfully vaporize tryptamine HCl salts, even though some amound of it burns while doing so. how is it with the fumarates?
 
Orally there should be no difference other than the power, fumarate salts in the stomach by action hydrochloric acid is transformed into hydrochloride salts.
 
i thought he didnt have seperate entries for the 4-aco's because he was under the assumption that they are converted to their 4-ho counterpart once ingested. Basically thinking they are one in the same.
ofcourse experience proves thats not the case.

But there are reports of 4 aco's in tihkal. They are under the 4-ho entries listed as acetoxy esters

i miss 4 aco mipt. IMO it was to miprocin what 4 aco-dmt is to psilocin
 
i guess i do.
i find them to not be as abrasive.

Usually the acetoxies have a more gentle come up and euphoric effects IME.

Although i found 4 ho dipt to be pretty euphoric and not abrasive (never tried 4-aco dipt, but from what ive read it seems to be not as good as iprocin)
 
Delsyd said:
i thought he didnt have seperate entries for the 4-aco's because he was under the assumption that they are converted to their 4-ho counterpart once ingested. Basically thinking they are one in the same.
ofcourse experience proves thats not the case.

But there are reports of 4 aco's in tihkal. They are under the 4-ho entries listed as acetoxy esters

i miss 4 aco mipt. IMO it was to miprocin what 4 aco-dmt is to psilocin
Click to expand...
Shulgin also avoided routes other than oral, so comparing esters to phenols was outside the scope of his research.
 
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