Did you pay for your own education?

[Cyc]

There's going to be people who have great opportunity and squander it in ANYTHING. Get over it!

Why should he get over it? This is the thread to talk about it.

 

[aanallein]

Because getting caught up in what others do/don't do with their life just means you're wasting your own.

 

[Cyc]

Because getting caught up in what others do/don't do with their life just means you're wasting your own.

Then who's going to stop inherent gaps in socioeconomic disparity? Or is it something we should all just take up the ass?

 

[ilust]

horribly bitter for every last dollar for 11 years of uni

 

[Ds]

Well, I've got a "PACT", something my grandparents set up for me, and my brother and sisters when we were little. It wasn't until recently when we heard about a lot of the "PACT" accounts were going bust. So it was pretty scary over the summer. Since I got the PACT when I was born, some 21 years ago. They promised me that no matter what the economy looks like I will still get school tuition for free. (Well for me anyways.)
So here in Alabama, they put a tax on gasoline to help out the PACT here. I just wish that congress didn't squander the PACT money to begin with!

 

[aanallein]

Then who's going to stop inherent gaps in socioeconomic disparity? Or is it something we should all just take up the ass?

System seems fine to me. Junior College -> Uni + Scholarships, Grants, and Loans.


Seems a lot better than it was in, oh I don't know... ANY OTHER TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY?

It's not easy but so many millions of people in the US manage to become the first in their family to graduate college. So I'm saying those "inherent gaps in socioeconomic disparity" are being bridged daily.

No its not easy. But atleast its not a caste system.

 

[ebola?]

Seems a lot better than it was in, oh I don't know... ANY OTHER TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY?

And this would be the history of what locale(s) and/or culture(s)?

It's not easy but so many millions of people in the US manage to become the first in their family to graduate college. So I'm saying those "inherent gaps in socioeconomic disparity" are being bridged daily.

The key here is your first qualifier, "it's not easy." Should we tolerate moderate material rewards to be difficult to attain for some people simply by circumstances of birth, yet easy for others by virtue of having been born into alternate situations? I was born into the white upper-middle class, and educational attainment has come pretty easily. Should we not structure society such that doing so is easier for those currently underprivileged?

ebola

ebola

 

[ThaiDie4]

Should we tolerate moderate material rewards to be difficult to attain for some people simply by circumstances of birth, yet easy for others by virtue of having been born into alternate situations? I was born into the white upper-middle class, and educational attainment has come pretty easily. Should we not structure society such that doing so is easier for those currently underprivileged?

I definently agree, and think that things should be set up differently so that opprotunities truely are more "equal".

I'm not going to lie, I'm not a very political person at all and I really don't know much about how to make an impact on education reform. But I also don't believe that getting angry at students of a higher socioeconomic background will solve anything.

I'd probably be kinda bitter if I wasn't getting the majority of my college education paid for... and I don't think we should just simply "accept" that there is such an inequality, but on the other hand, let's be careful who we point the finger at in this.

 

[aanallein]

Should we not structure society such that doing so is easier for those currently underprivileged?

/shrug.

I think there's a balance that needs to exist. People work hard and scrimp and save and better themselves. The end result is generally, and hopefully, leaving your children with a better opportunity than you had yourself. That's sort of the American dream. You are dealt a hand but have opportunity and through hard work you can better yourself and your kin.

If we just redeal the cards so that everybody "underprivilaged" has the same opportunity as everybody else then what's the point? And how has your education been easy? Last I checked the people footing the bill at the end of the day is still your family and those people worked. You may not have worked for that money, but rising up and getting a good job, raising kids, saving for the day they turn 18 and enroll in a 20-40k a year education program isn't easy.

Making education easy and making social mobility easy isn't a good thing. On some level we need to have survival of the fittest so that our society gets better and degrees hold value.


I had to take out loans and work through college. Those things made me a better person. My family helped a little bit. Having a single mom who was putting 2 kids through college at once wasn't an ideal circumstance. Do I feel like I should have received some kind of free ride because of my circumstance? No. That's not only unfair to those who's families are able to and thus, would have to pay while mine wouldn't, but I already had increased opportunities to receive scholarships and grants as it was.

 

[aanallein]

And this would be the history of what locale(s) and/or culture(s)?

I already said every point in time in human history and I will expand on it and include every culture and country outside the west and any current countries who progress a class system that is structured around education

Education is the #1 way to move upward in our social strata in the west. There are other ways but education is the most reliable and essentially dictates income and thus, socioeconomic placement, access to health care, and other things.

You can simply go backward in time from now and see how bad things were. Even in the US and Europe just a hundred years ago, access to education was limited and thus, opportunity to advance yourself and your family upward in society was SEVERELY restricted. This goes back into the beginnings of human history.

So if you want me to give an example, so you can simply try to argue against me about it, how about I just make it easier and ask you to name a single society that had a better/easier way for the low to become the middle or the high. Name one.

 

[Cyc]

/shrug.

I think there's a balance that needs to exist. People work hard and scrimp and save and better themselves. The end result is generally, and hopefully, leaving your children with a better opportunity than you had yourself. That's sort of the American dream. You are dealt a hand but have opportunity and through hard work you can better yourself and your kin.

I have no problem with people bettering themselves. If they want to work and accumulate wealth, then more power to them. That may net them a nice car, a big house and some expensive threads. However, when it comes to issues like education, basic medicine, shelter, and food, that is where I demand equity.

It's a bizarre American concept that primary education is a right, and post-secondary is a privilege. That is a very outdated notion in today's demanding work culture. Post-secondary is no longer an option for people who wish to live above the line of poverty. Perhaps 50 years ago, but not today. With the demand for higher educated workers, must come social reform that keeps pace.

People can't always rely on their parents and their immediate family to help them realize their potential. Those who are self-propelled need a social system to help them reach those goals. Aside from that, nothing changes. Everyone still has to attend the lectures, write the tests and the essays and attend the labs. There is no discrimination when it comes to the performance, so why is there discrimination when it comes to having the opportunity to perform?

If we just redeal the cards so that everybody "underprivilaged" has the same opportunity as everybody else then what's the point?

What's the point of what? Explain yourself. The point is evident. Civilized people don't value themselves on the backs of the underprivileged. That's the point I'm making.

And how has your education been easy? Last I checked the people footing the bill at the end of the day is still your family and those people worked. You may not have worked for that money, but rising up and getting a good job, raising kids, saving for the day they turn 18 and enroll in a 20-40k a year education program isn't easy.

I don't give a fucking shit about the financial sacrifice of people's family - ONLY THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES. That's the ONLY thing that matters. Nothing else is guaranteed.

Making education easy and making social mobility easy isn't a good thing. On some level we need to have survival of the fittest so that our society gets better and degrees hold value.

I think I just lost all respect I ever had for you. What a nasty, almost inappropriate thing to say. I've heard 100 different obfuscations, and foot-shuffling excuses for stepping on your fellow man, but nothing as brazen as that. Fuck sakes. Higher education is not for everyone. That will be evident in test scores, not tuition.

I had to take out loans and work through college. Those things made me a better person. My family helped a little bit. Having a single mom who was putting 2 kids through college at once wasn't an ideal circumstance. Do I feel like I should have received some kind of free ride because of my circumstance? No. That's not only unfair to those who's families are able to and thus, would have to pay while mine wouldn't, but I already had increased opportunities to receive scholarships and grants as it was.

You can't package entire groups of people (families) into a single entity. Equity occurs on an individual scale. Not everyone has a supportive family, single parent or otherwise. The fact that you don't feel entitled is stupid. You should feel entitled. In many parts of the word you ARE entitled, and rightly so.

I think you need to do some soul-searching. It's clear that you have some pretty strange notions about what's just and unjust.

 

[aanallein]

^ lol ok so because I don't agree with you, I'm now in need of soul searching? Please. Seems pretty childish to "lose all respect" for a person over their opinion on a single issue.



Along with everything else I've said in this thread I'll say this too:

I simply do not think it is possible for us to guarantee an even playing field for everybody right now. There's a lot of people, a lot of inequity, and the government is incredibly inefficient and bad at handling just about everything. You want everybody to have equal opportunity to go to college? Great - who pays for that? You want everybody to have equal healthcare as well? Great - again who pays?

I think that equity would be great and awesome but we are still at the stage in our development as a species that we can't give everybody everything. We're just a few hundred years removed from slavery. We're just a thousand years removed from the dark ages. Everything has costs in terms of labor and capital that must be expended to get them. Education, health care, housing, etc. are all expensive and we don't have the means to provide them to all. Some day in the distant future maybe we'll have a perfectly equitable society but I do not think our current system is capable of shouldering this burden. We're already failing as a country. Debt burden on personal and governmental levels are strangling our forward progress.

We need to rethink our approach. I'm not saying that we need to let it be a free for all. But there must exist other ways to grant equity, outside government subsidy, if equity is what we want.




There are lots of things in this country that are difficult. Getting a job is hard. Working at that job and progressing to make higher wages is hard. Raising kids and providing for your family is hard. Why should education not be hard? Avenues exist. People traverse these difficulties yearly. You act as if the system we have locks people into a class for life. Maybe you haven't visited India? That's an alternative that exists NOW. The system we have is evolving. Its far from perfect but atleast with work a person is capable of advancing.

Quit acting like a martyr. Its hard but its doable. My roomate from Ghana won the lottery (in some African countries if you win a lottery you get a work visa and get to come to the USA) and came to America and works 2 jobs and is going to community college. He doesn't complain. In fact he seems pretty excited about school over working.

My best friend grew up knowing his family would not support him going to college. He was told flat out that when he was 18 he was on his own. He barely made it through highschool because he never thought it possible to better himself without the aid of his family. He ended up going to the Marines and is now working on his degree at 26 years old with a wife and 2 children. He wants to major in Engineering. You should hear him talk about school and how excited he is about it. His wife grew up in a very poor part of the North West. She's now enrolling in her first college classes as well. They weren't handed anything but they are going back, even though its hard at their age with children and such, to better themselves. And they are happy about having that opportunity.

Cry me a fucking river.

 

[aanallein]

As an aside,

You know what would bother me more than a person who got a free ride from their family and fucked up?

A person who got a free ride from the government because of their "circumstances" and fucked up.

I don't care if somebody wastes their parents money but if they waste mine then I take issue with it. And I can guarantee you that would and does happen.

 

[aanallein]

The fact that you don't feel entitled is stupid. You should feel entitled.

sorry but I've never felt entitled my entire life.

I worked to maintain grades in primary, filled out my own paperwork and attained my own grants and paid for much of my own bills through college through working at minimum wage jobs, and now I continue to work for every pay check I receive.

I deal with young people at my job. Entitlement is one of the worst flaws in people today.

 

[Cyc]

^ lol ok so because I don't agree with you, I'm now in need of soul searching? Please. Seems pretty childish to "lose all respect" for a person over their opinion on a single issue.

Yeah, had a few drinks last night. Tends to make me a bit emotional. I apologize for going off like that. I just find reality extremely insulting sometimes.

You go on to make some good points about the conditions of capitalism in America. Forgive me if it seemed earlier like you were condoning it.

We need to rethink our approach. I'm not saying that we need to let it be a free for all. But there must exist other ways to grant equity, outside government subsidy, if equity is what we want.

I'm not sure how. I mean the government exists to provide ultimate value for the citizens who elect it. The government is the long arm of the public. They seem like the only logical choice for tax redistribution. Equity comes with high taxes, great efficiency, and a focus on public interests. If you're not electing people who are spending your tax money on ensuring equity at home, then elect someone who can do that job.

There are lots of things in this country that are difficult. Getting a job is hard. Working at that job and progressing to make higher wages is hard. Raising kids and providing for your family is hard. Why should education not be hard? Avenues exist. People traverse these difficulties yearly. You act as if the system we have locks people into a class for life. Maybe you haven't visited India? That's an alternative that exists NOW. The system we have is evolving. Its far from perfect but atleast with work a person is capable of advancing.

Right, but at the same time we employ systems to make sure everyone has an equal chance of landing a job, and we have rights that ensure workers are treated fairly while on the job. Why can't we extend those principles into the logical area of ensuring everyone has access to the tools to get that job in the first place?

If you want to give education value, then do it through the curriculum. If you want to put value on your graduates, raise the test standard to MENSA levels. This will at least maintain a social equilibrium. Rich or poor, if you're stupid, you fail.

Cry me a fucking river.

I'm not crying for myself. I have opportunities where I live. They're costly. Arguably more costly than they should be, but they exist and they are improving.

Canada already subsidizes tuition by 70% for all accredited Universities and Colleges. Almost all of these institutions are more sought after by employers than their private counterparts. On top of this, student loans are subsidized. Anything borrowed over $7,000 (in a year) does not have to be paid back. You are also automatically registered for bursaries such as free books, tuition, or cash, and if in financial need, given a job to work on campus.

Still, even after this, most students need loans. At one time Canada made you borrow student loans through a bank. If you couldn't repay a set amount each month, banks would haul your ass through collections. About 8 years ago, Canada took the contracts away from the banks and shouldered the burden. This allows them to gear repayment to income rather than charge a fixed rate. This reflects the realities of people who graduate but cannot find a good job right away. This also allows people without a cosigner take out student loans in the first place.

As a part time student (60% course load) going back to school this fall, I have been approved for $10,000 + $2,000 bursary. I will only pay back $7,000 of this money, and my repayment will be geared to my income upon graduation. I am not special. My grades are good, but not excellent. I represent your average Canadian student.

This is what I call social progress -- raising the bar.

 

[Cyc]

sorry but I've never felt entitled my entire life.

I worked to maintain grades in primary, filled out my own paperwork and attained my own grants and paid for much of my own bills through college through working at minimum wage jobs, and now I continue to work for every pay check I receive.

I deal with young people at my job. Entitlement is one of the worst flaws in people today.

Don't misunderstand. I think people should feel entitled to basic necessities, as defined in my earlier post. I don't think people should feel entitled to slack off, get a 2nd or 3rd chances, and have rolls of disposable income.

I think my cut-off line for what is a necessity and what isn't is pretty straight-forward.

 

[aanallein]

^ I think that with a really good government capable of doing things right (aka, not catering to lobbyists like what we currently have) we could employ creative solutions to the issues of equity in health care and education.

Also if we simply stopped throwing hundreds of billions away on defense that would be enough to grant educational equity right there.


Ultimately I do agree with you. Equity should be our goal. In the face of current limitations, though, what we have is a great deal better than what has ever existed before.


I hope in the not so distant future some form of socialist society forms (not totalitarian) sort of along the lines of what exists in Star Trek where production is basically automated (removing the need for capitalism) so education is the thing which everybody pursues and everybody has equal opportunity to pursue their interests.

 

[Cyc]

I agree 100%

 

[purple_cloud]

My undergrad was paid for by my parents with what they could, and financial aid. When both my parents were working my financial aid was lower, but after my mom passed away, and therefore we no longer had her income coming in, it was pretty much free. However, I went to a state university while many of the kids I went to highschool with went ivy league. It just wasn't practical for a BA in my mind.

Now I'm a graduate student, still at a state university (same one I did my BA at. It's a one and a half year masters program, and I'm taking out about $30,000 to pay for it...but I hope once I have a career going, that money shouldn't be too difficult to pay back.

I really appreciated the help from my parents (and government) because a lot of people I met weren't getting that. However, graduate school is a professional adult thing to do in my mind, where I could have gotten a job instead of continuing my higher education immediately. So, I'm paying for it myself. I may still get some slight assistance from family to help with food, but that's about it. Will end up working some part-time hours somewhere to pay for any partying I do and help out with that.

 

[mr shush]

I live in the UK (Channel Islands) and am a mature student going to study MPharm this year (4 year course in the UK). I get a full grant and my course paid for. However I have been working full time since the age of 16 (12 year) and still work in the holidays. Must have paid about £35k+ in tax and social over the years and am still paying it when I work now. When I come back as a qualified pharmacist they will make the short fall back in the tax and social I paid till I die. So the goverment never really loses do they? thats why I feel like I am not getting a free ride, but I do really appreciate the situation I am in.

They are just loading me some money, so I can make more money that they can then take a bigger % of lol