Stimulants Dextroamphetamine -- Are Small Doses Ever "Safe"?

[sola]

My cousin has tried dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) maybe only a half-dozen times, but has always had a low dose (5-10 mg). Makes him feel focused and gives a bit of energy.

But I recently read that dextroamphetamine can kill people via heart attack. I wanted to know if it's still safe to do small amounts, or if there is always a possibility of sudden death occurring. I know my cousin likes his dexies, but I'm going to tell him to stop if it can cause sudden death -- it's just not worth it for him!

I've tried searching for the answer, and I've found that adolescents and children have had sudden death from dextroamphetamine, but I want to know if this is possible for an adult who has already taken it a few times. Basically, if it didn't kill my cousin then, could it kill him now? Does anyone know the lowest dose that has ever killed an adult before?

I guess I'm wondering if it's like cocaine in that regard -- I've read that cocaine *can* kill a user in even really small doses via strange arrhythmia, meaning there truly is no "safe" dose of cocaine. Is there a safe dose of dextroamphetamine (or methamphetamine for that matter?)

I basically want to know if my cousin could one day do 10 mg of dexedrine, have extreme tachycardia, and fall over dead. I mean, I know it's unlikely, but I want to know if it's an actual possibility. Because while my cousin enjoys the extra work he gets done, it probably isn't worth it for him if he might die suddenly (even if it's unlikely), because dead people arguably get even less done than lazy people.

 

[oltotlo]

5-10mg for a new user, you will be fine. You can drink two espressos back to back the day before your ingestion of 5-10mg just to make sure you don't have lurking heart problems. It really only has the power to kill you if your heart was unprepared for a light dose of stimulants.

As far as I know as dopamine is the primary mechanism of action with d-amph, so long as one can stand an increased heart rate for the duration of the drug, one should be safe. I am no doctor though so this is just my best I can offer.

Backgroud: Vyvanse 60mg, d-amph 1 year @ 40mgIR/day

 

[Ksa]

It's prescribed for ADHD in amounts up to 40mg/day. I took 15mg/day for 7 years without too many incidents.

Certain events like panic attacks can occur where you might believe you're having a heart attack, but the rare cases where dex causes heart attacks it's upon first use, by whom? by people with faulty hearts, so if your cousin took dex several times safely it means his heart can take it and so it's safe for the rest of the life, assuming he won't be tempted to take more which is wishful thinking.

 

[Dawglaw]

I can't see a healthy adult having any problems with 5-10mg. Every time you put something in your body you run the risk of an adverse reaction. I'd feel safer taking 5mg of dex than eating at the local Chinese restaurant.

If you have a heart problem that is a whole different ball game.

To distinguish your cocaine worries: Dex is made in a lab by a pharmaceutical company that must adhere to strict quality control procedures. If you have real dex, you can feel relatively safe that it is pure. Where as coke is made in some nasty shack in the middle of a jungle and is cut with who knows what.

 

[Ksa]

If you could somehow lie to him saying 40mg is the lethal dose it would do him a big favor. Also, it's good to make a family thing out of him taking more then 10mg, like, if he takes more then 10mg, he's shaming himself and his family, get what I mean? There must be a psychological boundry to help him stay at 10mg, else he'll go balls deep in that thing faster than a rabbit gets fucked.

It's fairly easy to say you'll take 10mg when you're straight, but when your head is filled with 10mg, what goes through your brain at that point cannot be explained in words so chances are you'll pop another 10 while under the influence and that's how you derail.

 

[Ksa]

The best analogy that I like to use is a politician speaking in front of a 100,000 people audience. At first, half the audience yells "NO!" and the other half yells "YES", so the politician stares calmly, somewhat confused on the audience. When you take dex, all of a sudden, all the entire audience starts yelling "YES", so the politician starts to smile in contempt for having everybody on his side. It's like that inside the brain...it makes you feel like every molecule in your body is screaming "YES".

 

[Ksa]

Also, the context in which he is taking the dex matters alot. If he takes it to do his homeworks, he likely won't end up abusing it, but if he takes it to get a blowjob, you can obviously expect the worst abuse to occur within months or even weeks. The context must be favorable to productivity.

Getting a blowjob on Dex would however be something I would hate myself for not getting before leaving the planet ^.^

 

[oltotlo]

hahaha, the best way I could describe it as that feeling I should have had a long time ago

 

[R(x)AGE]

hels to the yes. the only danger is if a person has a preexisting condition or circumstance (fat & hot & dehydrated) they might have physical issues, but doses up to about 15mg are moderate and nothing to worry about. in my experience the only thing that could be considered damage is a weeee bit of psychosis if you over use

 

[Ksa]

In my opinion, it's impossible not to take more, like, going with 10mg dose forever...it's against our human nature. Humans are explorers, like Columbus, they like to explore new places and discover new things. Picture the dex bottle sitting in your drawer...how long will you leave it alone? I mean, you don't have to cross an unknown ocean and risk to fall off the planet at the other end...all you gotta do is fetch to the mouth. Ironically, one trip will not be safer than the other.

 

[Moredopamine]

10mg Dexedrine is probably comparable (in terms of cardiovascular effects) to one strong cup of Starbucks coffee. If you can handle that, you can definitely handle the dexedrine. In fact, at such small doses, the only way I could see someone having serious heart problems is if they either 1) have some sort of pre-existing heart defect or 2) have an idiosyncratic reaction to amphetamine.. both are quite unlikely.

Amphetamines, when used therapeutically or at least responsibly, are not particularly dangerous.

 

[sola]

Thank you, very helpful answers so far!

I like the idea of setting up guidelines... What would you guys recommend those guidelines be? At what dosage do things really start to get dangerous for your heart?

Like, is 20mg still "safe"? Is there a study somewhere that links average BPM of your heart with amphetamine dosage? I know it's different for everyone, but at what dosage would most people get tachycardia?

I want to lay down some ground rules for my cousin... He thinks I'm super knowledgeable about things, and he trusts me... So what would you guys say is a safe amount before tachycardia sets in?

 

[Ksa]

Thank you, very helpful answers so far!

I like the idea of setting up guidelines... What would you guys recommend those guidelines be? At what dosage do things really start to get dangerous for your heart?

Like, is 20mg still "safe"? Is there a study somewhere that links average BPM of your heart with amphetamine dosage? I know it's different for everyone, but at what dosage would most people get tachycardia?

I want to lay down some ground rules for my cousin... He thinks I'm super knowledgeable about things, and he trusts me... So what would you guys say is a safe amount before tachycardia sets in?

There is no guidelines because we don't know him/what he's doing. If he masturbates 24/7 to porn for 4 days in a row at 40mg/day along with opioids, his serotonin can raise so high he can enter serotonin syndrome and probably die. There are no guidelines. If we tell him not to go over 40mg/day, he can still die in 1,000 different ways while on that dose.

We are human beings. We are too small to understand the big things, and too big to understand the small things. We are dimensionally trapped in between galaxies and bosons...plainly ignorant and depend on a delicate balance of chemicals to survive. Disturbing this balance is hazardous even for PhDs in biochemistry.

 

[tweex]

In my opinion, it's impossible not to take more, like, going with 10mg dose forever...it's against our human nature. Humans are explorers, like Columbus, they like to explore new places and discover new things. Picture the dex bottle sitting in your drawer...how long will you leave it alone? I mean, you don't have to cross an unknown ocean and risk to fall off the planet at the other end...all you gotta do is fetch to the mouth. Ironically, one trip will not be safer than the other.

Hmm... depends. If you hear enough stories of "I knew someone who tried to cross the ocean, they fell off" fear can motivate limits. At least it did for me.

 

[sola]

There is no guidelines because we don't know him/what he's doing. If he masturbates 24/7 to porn for 4 days in a row at 40mg/day along with opioids, his serotonin can raise so high he can enter serotonin syndrome and probably die. There are no guidelines. If we tell him not to go over 40mg/day, he can still die in 1,000 different ways while on that dose.

Hee hee, very true But I guess I'm more asking for a ballpark figure, because I have literally NO idea when the dosage gets dangerous. Assuming he's not running a marathon, doing something stupid like taking opioids or other forms of polydrug abuse, fapping till the cows come home, etc. what do you think a "safe" dose is? And I KNOW the subjectiveness of my question, but I still would like to know what people consider a "safe" dose.

I mean, I know it's hard to answer, but I want to know what this community thinks, because you guys are much more informed than I am concerning stimulants. I mean, I don't know if 30 mg is okay, or 60 mg, or 200 mg. All I know is what the doctors say (no more than 60mg a day), and I know what people get high on (seems like the sky is the limit.. but I have NO idea how much risk they are taking!) ... So basically, I know what the ULTRA conservatives say, and I know what the ULTRA suicidal drug users say... Which is why Bluelight is the perfect happy medium

So BLers, what do you think? What's a "safe" dose for someone using Dexedrine? And don't be afraid to quote me a number -- I won't tell my cousin "This dose is PERFECTLY safe no matter WHAT." I just want to get an idea of generally considered safe doses.

 

[batrider]

I read somewhere that neurotoxicity starts at 20mgs of amphetamine daily though personally I took 30 per day 40 for like two months and plan to resume from methylphenidate which iirc was not at all organically toxic to brain tissue.

 

[sekio]

If he masturbates 24/7 to porn for 4 days in a row at 40mg/day along with opioids, his serotonin can raise so high he can enter serotonin syndrome and probably die.

Serotonin syndrome is unlikely under those circumstances; collapse due to outright exhaustion and low blood sugar is far more likely. Plain old amphetamine doesn't raise serotonin levels a crazy amount; it's the modified amphetamines that have significant activity at SERT (methamphetamine, methylenedioxyamphetamines, and the meta/para-substituted amphetamines are the notable ones). And I don't think masturbation is a causative factor in serotonin syndrome - at least, I've never heard you should abstain from sexual activity on powerful MAOIs

The "ballpark figure" I've seen Epsilon Alpha cite in this thread is 0.25-0.5 mg/kg, which is 15-30mg for a 60kg/130lb person. But, don't rely on this as some sort of set in stone limit.

You should be less concerned about acute neurotoxicity and more concerned about general lifestyle decay associated with stimulant abuse. It is absolutely essential amphetamine (really, any stimulant) users have a solid healthy diet, as amphetamine does increase metabolic rate (and reduce appetite) at the same time as depleting your body's stores of antioxidants (which should be present in the diet in large amounts). They need to be keeping their cardiovascular system in shape, too - amphetamine raises blood pressure and left uncontrolled this will increase the risk of e.g. strokes. Avoid other blood-pressure elevating drugs and sodium. Eat green vegetables, foods rich in antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals, and eat plenty of calories. If you maintain your body's energy and nutrient reserves you will stop a large amount of the damage before it has a chance to occur. Make sure to stay hydrated and brush your teeth as well (dry mouth from stimulants increases tooth decay).

Some of the side effects of amphetamine (tachycardia, hypertension, sweating) are normal physiological responses that vary in intensity between everyone. They aren't a sign of damage - just that your body is responding to the dose you took. Generally these effects do not go away with tolerance as quickly as the mental ones do - so if you feel unusually uncomfortable, don't panic, just reduce your dose next time.

Really, the safest dose is the lowest effective dose that works for his purposes. Amphetamine can be suprisingly strong in naive users; 5 or 10mg is more than enough to produce a strong effect in some people.

 

[sola]

Thank you, very helpful! Pretty much answered all my Qs and more

But I do have one more Q: My cousin is deathly afraid of having a heart attack (I remember sitting up with him one night because he was CONVINCED he was dying... Nothing actually wrong with his heart; he just panics a lot) and he worries about heart palpitations (everyone gets them sometimes, but they really freak him out!). I've read that palpitations can be a side effect of amphetamines.

So my question is, does anyone know if amphetamines can cause palpitations when they are taken in small doses (5-25 mg let's say), or is this side-effect primarily associated with overuse? I know my cousin would FREAK if he started having heart palpitations, so I thought I should check for him because he was already asking me about the possibility of heart palpitations yesterday about taking benzos he was prescribed for his panic 8)

I know that stims don't seem like the best idea for someone who panics, but they actually get him really focused and he seems to not have a care in the world when he's on them... But I know some heart palps would throw him out of his "zone." He's never had heart palps before on dex, but he's just a worrywart, so I thought I'd ask the experts to help calm his nerves while he's "zoning."

 

[sekio]

Yes, amphetamines can cause palpitations. But it's personally variable, unlikely at low doses, and they are harmless unless they recur frequently.