(Desoxypipradrol/10 mgs) First experience: Which way is Poland?!

[ladenburg]

L-dopa is used to treat parkinsons where patients suffer from degradation of brain areas dense with dopamine receptors.

Not dense in receptors, but dense in dopaminergic cell bodies. The cells synthesise dopamine for storage and release from nerve terminals located on axons that project to areas of the brain often quite distant from the cell bodies themselves. Dopamine receptors, on the other hand, are mainly located on non-dopaminergic cells.

L-Dopa is a very tricky drug to dose.

L-dopa is simple to dose in early Parkinson's disease, not to mention in healthy individuals. A single daily dose is often sufficient. It becomes very tricky to dose in advanced PD due to the nature of the disease: as more dopaminergic cells are lost, the capacity to store dopamine for later release is lost, and hence it becomes very important to keep the plasma (and CSF) concentration of L-dopa at an even and suitable level.

Again, warning: it is very strong stuff. If you take too much you most likely will become psychotic for a period of time.

That may be true for individuals prone to psychotic illness or dementia, but a more likely problem in most people is the nausea resulting from the peripheral actions of dopamine. To control the peripheral side effects, L-dopa is almost exclusively given with a periperal inhibitor of L- aromatic amino acid decarboxylase, and sometimes with a peripheral dopamine antagonist such as domperidone.

What makes you even think if you take L-Dopa it will (necessarily) go to the areas that desoxypip is acting on? (Maybe somebody more knowledgeable could speak to this).

This is the problem with L-dopa. A stimulant will increase the synaptic dopamine levels, whereas L-dopa will elevate DA levels just about everywhere - hence the increased incidence of many DA-related side effects with L-dopa as opposed to a stimulant, and hence, L-dopa is not a popular drug of abuse.

There is clinical evidence that L-dopa can be safely combined with DA reuptake inhibitors, but not amphetamine-like stimulants - on the contrary, reasearch indicates that the combination of amphetamines and L-dopa may worsen neurotoxicity.

Unfortunately, my personal experience indicates that L-dopa (with an AADC inhibitor - benserazide) does very little to enhance the efficacy of DA reuptake inhibitors, even with high doses of the latter. It also seems to be practically useless as an alternative to stimulants. Of course, other individuals may have better luck in these regards.

 

[elfspice]

I read in this thread and on the wikipedia page about desoxypipradrol that novartis, then ciba-geigy, was studying this compound alongside methylphenidate as a potential ADD medication (presumably as a less sympathetic stimulant alternative to amphetamine, and less prone to compulsive dosing and euphoria than methamphetamine).

I'd really like to know why this drug was rejected as an ADD medication by novartis because my reaction to ritalin is scary. My first dose of it resulted in strong time-dilation effects and subsequent usage manifested virtually every side effect listed on the information sheet the pharmacist who dispensed it to me gave me when I had my first dose and went a bit nutter. The worst effects for me were intensely increased startle response to loud noises, blurry vision, aggression and a mild increase in my anxiety level (which is high at baseline). And like what seems from my research, a very common problem with ritalin, the very short time of action and the very unpleasant comedown effects, I was unable to find a dose regime which worked adequately, and the 'ritalin SR' that I was prescribed still only lasted at best 3 hours before the nasty comedown effects began.

I can see just by reading through this thread at least one aspect of why this drug may have been unsuitable, as it does indeed resemble methamphetamine, meaning that there most likely was several incidents with study subjects redosing and so on.

I was most interested in the stuff about psychosis because with meth my psychosis only manifests as (using the terms I read somewhere) 'excessive concern about one's state of physical health'. However an experience which I think I reported here, about MDPV and dehydration, made it clear to me that part of the aetiology of meth psychosis (and perhaps by extension maybe 2dpmp) is dehydration. Subsequent experience with MDPV has shown that psychosis is not an effect I get from routine dosing and in fact extended wakefulness is not even really possible for me as I get an increasing incidence of side effects the worst two being mental fogginess and headache, and less troubling but more pervasive and subtle, tachycardia. No significant signs of psychosis have manifested in me with MDPV since that one incident in which I became moderately dehydrated to what by the definitions I found in wikipedia are rated at 6% below normal hydration levels. I was getting paraesthesia (tingling of the extremities), dry skin, blotchy skin, disorientation/unco-ordination. These were a major part of the symptoms I used to experience on multi-day (usually at most 3 days) methamphetamine experiences. After my MDPV dehydration experience I now know a major factor in the cause of my self-observed decline of physical health, one which was enhanced by stimulant/sleep deprivation reduction of cognitive capabilities, was in fact dehydration, however the general opinion of at least the ER doctor I was examined by at that time was of the opinion that I was perfectly fine. Now I know that paraesthesia is a symptom of dehydration I would never willingly go to a doctor about stimulant-related health type problems - just notice it, drink a litre or so of water, and if that doesn't work within an hour drink another litre of water.

Paraesthesia has been one of the biggest negative effects I've experienced under the influence of meth and it's not a direct effect of meth but rather a possible consequence of the hunger and thirst suppression that it couses.

Having said that I want to reiterate that an increased suggestibility is definitely an effect I experience and it can result in a temporary fervour about a nonsensical idea during the first 1-2 days of stimulant induced sleeplessness. I am very interested to see how 2dpmp compares. In any case it is my opinion that the baseline inability to retain a fervour or faith in *anything* is actually abnormal and that I report this effect from stimulant drugs is a sign that if normality or at least a degree of integration is to be achieved I clearly require a medication, otherwise I fall into an agnostic, anhedonic, disinterested and unambitious fog of unmotivation.

I hope to procure a quantity of it at some stage and find out what my reaction is. Clearly it is a drug with a fairly idiosyncratic effect upon most users, it may be entirely useless to me - I mean, most people report enjoying and even getting some degree of euphoria from amphetamine yet for me it is almost entirely unpleasant, hypertension, tachycardia, anxiety, if it was affecting my mental focus in some way I'd be hard pressed to notice with all that stuff going on at the same time.

 

[uacvax]

Does anyone know why my body is so intolerable to drugs? MPH stopped working for me after about a month, same with provigil, although I used adderall before that for a good year and a half with semi stable tolerance, although now that's completely whacked for me now.

 

[elfspice]

i know most people say that desoxy is stable but ive noticed my solution change to a light butterscotch color over the course of three or four months...but no noted change in potency.

been thinking a fair bit about the issue of methods of dosing this stuff accurately and had the thought about - well since it appears to be stable in water, perhaps it would be a good candidate for a nasal spray. mixed with saline water (9g NaCl/1L) and dose-calibrated (first determine how much saline comes out per spray by pumping out a few ml and counting the number of sprays required per ml) and it would be a very convenient, fast acting and portable (and innocuous) method of administering it. starting low and working upwards one could find one's 'sweet spot' of dose so that only 2 sprays are required to get the desired dose.

 

[Jabberwocky]

don't fuck with L-Dopa supplementation if you want to remain stable and healthy. You are skipping the rate-limiting step and you can easily add too much (more is not always better!).

 

[hamhurricane]

been thinking a fair bit about the issue of methods of dosing this stuff accurately and had the thought about - well since it appears to be stable in water, perhaps it would be a good candidate for a nasal spray. mixed with saline water (9g NaCl/1L) and dose-calibrated (first determine how much saline comes out per spray by pumping out a few ml and counting the number of sprays required per ml) and it would be a very convenient, fast acting and portable (and innocuous) method of administering it. starting low and working upwards one could find one's 'sweet spot' of dose so that only 2 sprays are required to get the desired dose.

you might be right, i have no idea what the oral bioavailability of desoxy is, but IN admin could make it even stronger if it has a bioavail similar to MPH. that said there is really no reason to carry it around in a spray bottle, you only need to take it once a day, redosing is not necessary. so you might as well just take it orally at home in the morning.

 

[ebola?]

I'd really like to know why this drug was rejected as an ADD medication by novartis

It lasts too fucking long.
Man...this thread is hilarious. 20 pp. and peppered with dissertation-sized posts therein.

*in before submission of a trip report about reading this thread*

 

[elfspice]

just popped my my cherry on this one. ~4mg (50mg +/- 5mg dissolved in water to permit accurate dosing). i don't feel the urge to blather on and on about this one except the temptation to dose it as soon as it arrives in the post overwhelms common sense and a dose at 2:30pm is guaranteed to result in no sleep until after midnight.

just a good clean, long lasting effect. (although bear in mind this was dosed with 150mg of mebicar and 80mg of verapamil both of which reduce the chances of hypertension, tachycardia, anxiety and stupidity).

trying to sleep is weird, getting this weird sensation on my skin where it is in contact with the bed, but oddly when upright and in an equally static position this effect does not occur. mild incidence of hayfeverishness at around 10 hours after dosing which probably is just from the indoor dust and is not uncommon. drugs which cause sleeplessness usually have some, usually selective histamine 3 activity and i guess in this case it is slightly unselective as the word 'histamine' gets a few hits on this thread.

will be going out for the early morning predawn ride that i couldn't get myself up for during the two days between running out of mdpv and the arrival of the 2dpmp in a couple of hours, probably preceded by a 5mg dose.

now that i am in that post 8 hours part i'm starting to notice my particular variety of 'psychosis' symptoms mainly consisting of obsessing about the state of my physical health, although at this point not bad as i sometimes get and i did find during my first run on mdpv that hydration helped a lot. paraesthesia and intensified sense of smell doesn't help though. basically i just feel like i want to go on a big long ride on my bike and come home and have a bath and actually wash myself properly rather than the not so thorough efforts of late.

assuming i don't have an ongoing problem of sleeplessness, which i can't be sure about until i've dosed at the time of day i would normally be dosing (3am just before my predawn ride) - the lack of needing to think about redosing the drug and the long smooth effect is very preferable. the effectiveness at treating ADD symptoms is unquestionable.

edit: as it turned out i did fall asleep before 3am, probably almost exactly 12 hours after dosing. now to find something non-rambling to do while the rest of the world wakes up and such things as vacuuming become socially acceptable.

 

[An Iz]

Hey elfspice, I don't know how in touch you are with your sleep schedules and how intense your days usually are for you to judge your performance by, And it seemed like you said you were gonna be taking some other drug the next day, BUT

if you're sober the next day I'd appreciate some info on what quality of sleep you got, and if you still felt tired/wired/ or weird the next day.

It takes like 4 or 5 days for my body to process 4mg of desoxypipradol, and then like 3 more to get back to 100%

 

[elfspice]

yeah i will be continuing my reports. definitely feel that 4mg was about right for me, or about 0.0533mg/kg. the longer i'm awake without sleep the more pleasant the prospect of sleep sounds.

the 'which way is poland' headspace appears to be typical first dose response to this material, after that it gets more self conscious and uncertain. also i'm not sure about the halflife thing, everyone's brain has different metabolic capacities and tolerance buildup rates and so forth. i am fairly certain i was drifting off or definitely asleep when my alarm went off at 3am this morning because it startled me, so the 4mg was letting me sleep at t+12hrs.

the beneficial effects on my ADD are still present however. i did my hour ride today and i've vacuumed my flat and done a bunch of research and stuff. i'm tired tho, sleep will be very much welcome to me tonight. i had a small booster at about 10:30am of maybe 2mg and to be honest the extra stimulation is not pleasant but not unpleasant either. i had a little euphoria in the first 6 hours or so but i think that was also in part due to normal feeling good after eating and being pleased about the arrival of something that seems so far to be a possible effective treatment that i can actually access and won't have any trouble keeping under contrtol.

my only concern is, precisely what you are talking about - whether it disrupts my sleep. and if this proves to be problematic i am wondering what tactics could be applied to ameliorating this, having the weekend off, for example, increased water intake, antioxidants, and so forth. i hear nonsense - well, non-scientific claims that things like oranges cause the more rapid wearing off with methamphetamine... knowing what its metabolites are may help, and there has been at least one report in this thread of polyphasic activity suggestive of at least primary active metabolites (and possible avenues of SAR exploration).

anyway, since i was drawn away from this post writing mid-thread by something or other, i've had a bit more time in between to think about things and observe my response and i have noticed that it causes me to have a really quite strong anxiety reaction, more in the paranoia realm of anxiety, so i am trying raising my dose of mebicar to see if this addresses it, as this anxiety is less generalised than what i got from mdpv, and the CNS stimulation is definitely much stronger so i should not find near as much sedating effect (which is an odd reaction to mebicar anyway), and this brings my dose rate for mebicar up to more like 600-750mg/day.

i will continue to report my responses and doses and times and reflections for a little longer at least, when i first read this i was hoping that someone else who has a similar condition to me tried it but not as much as i would have liked (actually nobody else other than speculatively).

edit:
a subsequent dose 7 hours after the first dose just after 3am of approximately 2mg tipped the effect over my comfort level and had me feeling uncomfortably paranoid and anxious, 300mg of mebicar (adaptol) rather than my usual 150mg second dose of the day knocked it on the head brilliantly.

coming up my planned time for sleep at about 6-7 hours before my 3am start (rain may dampen the plans for the daily 16km bicycle ride) and feeling distinctly like sleep will be possible, despite the indiscretion about the somewhat redose with 2mg at 10:30am - which is about 10 hours ago. fingers crossed.

update:
0454hrs: sleep did not come as readily as would have been liked, but a 10mg loratadine sorted that out and 4 hours was achieved, a theory is developing. not particularly good.

at about 0315hrs approximately 1.8mg was insufflated followed 10 minutes later by another 1.8mg. only at about perhaps 0415hrs did a significant and useful effect seem to set in, but being that in the interim i had ridden about 8 or 9km on my bicycle i can't say for certain whether this was not simply the onset of natural endorphin release or a metabolic byproduct.

pharmacological theorising:
1. an immediately active effect of the desoxy is a what appears to be mostly selective histamine 3 receptor agonism. that there is H3 activity is in no doubt whatsoever as every known alerting agent or insomnia causing drug known thus far has strong histamine 3 activity. it is also reported in this thread at least once an incident of histaminergic reaction to this chemical suggesting it is somewhat unselective, and if i remember correctly the reaction was immediate suggesting this is a direct effect of the chemical itself.

2. around 45 minutes after absorption, or so, a secondary effect begins which appears to be where the 'fun stuff' begins, and this effect seems to build up and remains until about 8-10 hours after dosing. i am starting to get an impression that there is definitely an active metabolite involved, if not more than one perhaps several, and this effect is shorter lived and its benefits are outweighed by the longer lasting H3 agonism previously hypothesised.


i'm not sure what measures are suitable for immediate counteracting of the H3 - i did find loratadine worked and it's one of the least sedating histamine antagonists. also i have had most of my life a set of symptoms which suggests an above average level of histamine activity, evidenced by short sleep periods, excessive body temperature, excess mucus, excessive saliva (possibly may be a factor in my good dental health despite my abject neglect), and a number of other symptoms described here http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C447056.html now while i am somewhat skeptical of this diagnosis and the disease in general i can say for certain that these symptoms definitely can be attributed to histamine activity.

and so, it appears that the most direct and effective method of bringing sleep with desoxypipradrol is antihistamines. if anyone could suggest one with low toxicity and high selectivity for H3 antagonism it would be the trick to making the drug manageable. the effects on peripheral adrenalin and central noradrenalin and dopamine are fairly mild, and seem to have an 8-12 hour duration after which point they probably would not cause significant depletion of sleep quality. being that i have generally got away with 6 hours a night (more often than not i seem to wake up at exactly 6 hours after falling asleep unless i am sick or drank a lot of alcohol) and that it does not seem to greatly impair my overall health (while i do have high sinus mucus production i don't have poor immunity and have had the flu maybe twice and a third time most recently i stopped it dead in its tracks with increased fluids, antioxidants, echinacea, zinc and rest - my skin and overall complexion have the appearance to most people of being of a person in their mid 20s rather than early 30s), so long as the histamine antagonism is selective for H3 and is easily eliminated within 8 hours i don't see why i can't for the time being continue the use of desoxypipradrol.

however i would love to find out what the metabolites are if i could somehow and i am going to find out where and how much it costs to get an assay of urine metabolites and anything in the MW range of desoxypipradrol i would like to get the chemical formula if not the molecular model discovered.

or perhaps this has already been done and someone with access to medline or some such database can find out what are the known metabolites. my suspicion is that it is some kind of hydroxylated derivative, but of course not hydroxylated on the central carbon, although it seems likely that this is possibly one of the metabolites (pipradrol) as the wriggly structure of piperidine and polarity of the amine and its proximity may make it a major metabolite.


in any case, clearly the best antidote for the insomnia is an antihistamine. this may make this chemical not particularly useful. if, however, the more strong dopaminergic effects are from a metabolite other than pipradrol, it would be very useful to find out what it is and if it can be easily made from the parent compound as it would be the useful element amongst the useless crap that is caused by desoxypipradrol.


note: this does suggest the use of quetiapine (seroquel) as it has antihistamine activity - of course this also suggests tricyclics as well.

note 2: looking at it it appears that my idea about H3 receptors is precisely opposite from what is known, and perhaps this implies that desoxypipradrol has selective H3 antagonism, although that's entirely debatable at this point. antagonising H3, however, would take the reins off its effect on limiting monoamine activity. clearly the histamine aspect of the effect is only part of the story but the fact that loratadine permitted effective suppression of the alerting effect may still be helpful.

more observation and combinations are needed. this morning no adjuncts were taken and the sympathetic effects seem bearable but the anxiety is present so mebicar will dosed at 300mg to see if it's overtly beneficial effect noticed previously at this dose recurs.

1103hrs:
i am starting to understand how people find this stuff difficult to figure out. first 6 hours generally sucks, not sure exactly how to describe it, but it's basically unpleasant and distracting and all these sympathetic effects and - well ok i'm a bit lost how to describe it other than unpleasant. but then after a while it gets better. today so far i've put 50mcg of clonidine, 600mg of mebicar, 80mg of verapamil and 10mg of loratadine on top of it and now i feel fine and i am lost for an explanation as i had already dosed the mebicar and clonidine less than 2 hours after the first ~3.6mg no good, the second 300mg of mebicar, some loratidine, i find it highly doubtful it's the mebicar by itself, and the timelines of dosing of the adjuncts is starting to make me think there definitely is an active metabolite that does not take effect until about 6-8 hours in. only way for me to determine this positively would be to not take anything else (aaaargh the pain!) and see if it abates at that point. seems that what should definitely be doing something definitely isn't.

i wish i could get some clear confirmation of the nature of its metabolites. primary activity plus a slow buildup of an active metabolite would absolutely explain the effects.

ah! ok, it was mentioned earlier in this thread that storing it in water caused it to change colour but no apparent change in potency - the colour change suggests a possible polymerisation reaction, implying an oxidation something along the lines of the reactions described in here http://books.google.com.au/books?id...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA52,M1 (google books thing of a book about lactam polyamides) which shows on page 52 the reaction mechanics of lactam in water. it involves the lactam adding on to an already fully ring opened and oxidised lactam (the diphenyl amino acid that results when the piperidine ring is opened by oxidation - requires 3 oxygen atoms, from the piperidine to the lactam to the aminoalcohol to the acid) would form a linear chain with diphenyls attached at every 6 carbons in the chain.

the only possible explanation for this degradation without the obvious concurrent loss of potency is that one of the intermediates in the oxidative decomposition in this process is more potent than the original chemical and has substantially similar effects (which i am thinking may not be similar to me because in general my reactions to stimulants is uncommon). the potency increase would have to be substantial also, at least 2x as strong if not more so. obviously a more conclusive understanding would require a lot of chemistry and chomatography, simply understanding this decomposition in water would lead to a lot more information.

seems likely though, that activity of the decomposition product would be substantially shorter, and perhaps not be a one dose a day drug, maybe on par with the T1/2 of meth.

just for shits and giggles i got some 3% peroxide and a tiny bit of desxoypipradrol (maybe 10mg), let it boil up until it acquired a 'light butterscotch' colour, then added some sodium bicarbonate and boiled it down until well past dry and inhaled the (funky) vapours. was just a qualitative test to see if, when oxidised quite extensively (the colour of the solution was a dark honey colour before freebasing it) had a noticable difference in effects for me. it does, more warm, relaxed feeling not so much of the cold tense wired feeling i get 10 minutes after insufflation. far from conclusive but enough to make me seriously consider means to alter either the chemical or my metabolism of it somehow. the trick would be oxidation with something to inhibit the polymerisation. or to accelerate the oxidation while it is being absorbed perhaps.

and for scientific theory justification purposes, finding a means by which the oxidatively opened piperidine ring by known mechanisms could be decarboxylated.

20090219 0634hrs:
took 4mg dexchlorpheniramine at 2100hrs last night, was probably too much antihistamine, next time i'll only take 2mg. worked effectively at allowing me to sleep, i was a bit too affected by it so didn't properly sleep until midnight and woke at just before 6 so finally some decentish amount of sleep. decided to have a day off the hard exercise, all my muscles are sore and probably not recovering as fast as they could if i was sleeping more and taking glutamine supplements.

today a strict dosing regime, ~4mg IN and for the purposes of examining the hypothesis discussed above no adjuncts whatsoever. i want to see if there indeed is a distinct change of character of the effects at around T+8hrs.

 

[An Iz]

Ok now stop taking all drugs for 10 days, come back and reread, then follow up with a semi-final verdict.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Elfspice, your last post is what I'd call a perfect example of desoxy's effect on people - a tendancy to explain things in precise detail resulting in marathon posts. This thread seems littered with such posts - although not all of them are as logical as yours


I actually have moments of regretting ever mentioning this compound as it appears that it's all over the place now such that every other person seems to have tried it, some with rather unfortunate results on mental health. It does mean that I haven't made posts for everything I've tried since the first post in this thread as every time I've read of someone losing it due to desoxy, I feel that I've just received negative karma points

 

[B9]

^ Surely people make their own choices - everyone ought to realise that these are (relatively) unresearched substances - however that said I understand where you're coming from.


Here's a thousand positive karma points

 

[Jabberwocky]

Elfspice, your last post is what I'd call a perfect example of desoxy's effect on people - a tendancy to explain things in precise detail resulting in marathon posts. This thread seems littered with such posts - although not all of them are as logical as yours

LOL its quite distinct isn't it...very easy to spot a desoxy post

And about the karma points, man you are so careful I watch almost your every move on this board. You're a good guy FB, don't beat yourself up over people using this compound out of hand and going on binges with it. Its not your fault. Your job was to report information about the drug and I recall you giving multiple warnings about its length and intensity and possibility for negative experiences.

 

[elfspice]

just wanted to add a report that i have begun a program of magnesium transdermal therapy, basically consisting of up to now soaking my feet for long periods of time in moderately strong epsom salts solution. i have synthesised magnesium chloride from calcium chloride and epsom salts just gotta wait for the bastard gypsum to settle so i can decant it and settle in a tall vessel then filter and i'll be putting it in a sprayer bottle with some dmso and spraying myself down on a daily basis probably 2x daily for a month.

just from what i've done already, however, i have discovered that increasing magnesium levels reduces a lot of the nasty effects, anxiety, etc and for interest's sake an IV infusion of 4mg with 120mg of epsom salts was tried and found to lack euphoria, and have a gradual onset of about 10 minutes to full effect.

there may be some reason for the lack of euphoria, i'm not sure what the neurochemistry of euphoria is but but assuming the idea that this is a NDARI the implication is that euphoria is not caused by either of those neurotransmitters and a brief search for some neurochemical research identifying the underlying chemical cause of euphoria finds nothing.

i probably have low blood sugar in any case because since 3 hours ago i have eaten a sum total of 2/3 of a pineapple and an orange.

oh and fastandbulbous: my intelligence is quite high especially my ability to think critically i have consciously developed as a result of the most unpleasant experience of seemingly mindblowing insight on meth that not long afterwards was recognised for the pseudoscientific babbling that it was. i do tend towards lateral thinking (in a gender cognition test i was rated as having cognition typical of half way towards the average for a female, ie poor linear processing, spatial processing etc) and to impulsivity. as i've got older i've learned to control it more but it's still obviously present and to a degree that is impairing.

regarding that crazy rambling mentioned above, despite high noise to signal ratio of what came out of me, the interesting and profound parts still persist in fascinating me, and i am still sure that i am onto something but more rigour and probably a few more significant realisations are required before i could take it anywhere. just to be not provoking the question the ideas are related to physics and gravity, and contain a lot of wave/harmonics/geometry/equilibrium/chaos type elements, and pointed me to several interesting related insights that i found interesting evidence in seemingly anomalous results of experiments. one of them was an experiment with a large rotating spherical body of heated gas, where temperatures within different regions of the mass were measured and it was found that the heat was at the edges and in the centre was cooler, standing in abject opposition to the current state of astrophysics which suggests that large bodies of mass are extremely hot and dense inside, whereas that experiment clearly showed that centripetal force exerts a thermal (and implicitly mass) chromatographic separation effect suggesting that perhaps stars are in fact not nuclear fusion reactors but instead gigantic chromatographic centrifuges that emit light and other radiation simply because that is the lightest most kinetic component of matter. anyway not to get too far off topic but i just wanted to illustrate an example of how my partially disordered thinking still retains a lot of logical integrity and often generates useful new correlations that were not previously visible or recognised.

and yes, i really enjoy this kind of thinking process, which is one of the components reinforcing my use patterns.

 

[Xorkoth]

I do find desoxy quite euphoric, but in a roundabout sort of way, if that makes sense. Usually it has started out kind of anxious, and once it's around 6 to 8 hours in, I have usually suddenly become rather outrageously euphoric... as the marathon posts from me earlier in this thread are evidence of!

I thinkmI'm going to go back and read them for my own amusement now... I've got DOI in my blood and I'd like to reminisce.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ I can only read my old posts in a certain mindset otherwise I tend to look at them and thinl "did I really say that?!"

Oh and G_P - it's my catholic guilt finding a way to express itself as at times I fully realize that people are responsible for their own choices, but if I'm not a totally happy bunny, I seem to give some space to my guilt inclinations and, well you see the result

 

[elfspice]

well, just to reiterate, IV caused no euphoria and onset, and tolerance was double by about 12 hours after the first. had really bad tremors and apparent low blood pressure (?) or at least to be precise elevation of blood vessels was very poor even with a good tourniquet. the assessment of this route of administration for this subject at least has nothing whatsover to recommend it.

i can see why it was rejected by ciba now. it is both way too long acting and repeat dosing is reinforcing. if its half-life was half of what it is, if it didn't have the very same characteristic of meth of causing one to fixate on things, and if it didn't diminish the capacity to think fluidly, then it might be alright.

something i've noticed about these stimulant drugs that all that i've taken have in common (MPH, MA, D-AMP, MDPV) that is this alteration of affect towards a dull, monotone, and a distinct loss of humour. not that i'm all that of a comedian normally but apart from this last 4 years during which i've taken a lot of stimulants and drank a lot of alcohol, i am normally always seen with a smile on my face.

granted that the years and my chronic poor health obviously must be responsible, i am at a threshold point now where i am feeling a distinct need to break out of this pattern and take a wholly different approach.

recent research into various aspects of my malaise has uncovered one particular stand out causal factor - specifically chronic magnesium deficiency, linking what seemed like an otherwise disparate constellation of symptoms, on top of psychological factors which most definitely are reinforcing. previously this idea, of inadequate magnesium, was neglected but i can see now that not only does it stand out as a clear primary factor.

the signs are too hard to miss now, and the prognosis given no intervention would likely be the occurrance of an acute cardiovascular event sometime in the next 4 years, especially given the amount of sympathomimetic drug use on top of the other stuff.

it seems indicated that the cessation of stimulant use is a priority. i am afraid of this prospect, because it is implicitly going to mean the return of certain health problems that impair my ability to live an active life. but if these problems were being caused by deficiencies caused by a broken digestive system, and they are fixed with the treatments i am considering, then the downtime and regression may not be as bad as it was before.

and so, i am seriously considering the option of self-admission into a 'stimulant rehab' type situation, where i would be fed, not expected to be all that awake and on the ball for a few weeks. i would not do it on the basis that i am an 'addict', but rather that while i withdraw i need to be able to be slow and sleepy and all the other things (possibly a bit depressed, anxious, etc), as well as to permit time for the correction of my chronic low plasma levels of magnesium and hopefully significant improvement in the digestive function, which should then lead to an acceleration of my health improvement. and importantly, so that i am not expected to be able to work or look for work. ideally it would be somewhere that i would be living away from my regular home as well, giving my mother a respite from me - i sense distinctly that she is becoming very anxious about me and when she gets like this (it's usually caused by my drug use behaviours) she pushes me away and this would be bad for both of us.

a break from the internet would be a good thing too. i am inclined to go on a media fast as well as a whole, eliminate music, tv, reading, and no media creating either (such as talking or writing). sleep, quiet reflection and processing, eating, some chores maybe, when i'm feeling up to it, eating, and personal hygiene. i will not avoid social contact but also not seek it.

first step then is to clear out all the stimulant drugs around the place, and declare the plan to the mother and confess the sins of the intravenous administration.

i probably won't be back in this forum to post after today, my interest in drugs now is perhaps at an end, aside from the vague possibility that i have some kind of congenital disorder that requires it and augmenting drugs such as nootropics, antiaging, immune boosting, performance enhancing etc. but i just want to see what my baseline is after i treat the magnesium problem for now.

*wanders off*

 

[Jabberwocky]

you need a break from stimulants

I'm not sure if confessing your IV use would do more harm than good. It might just hurt your parents and cause them to worry about you. Are you mature enough to handle this on your own though? Well, you can tell them about the stimulant use and your desire to quit (then they'll be on your side with that if you guys have a good relationship). But there might not be any need for telling them you injected the drug intravenously. Thats a big one in people's minds...it really disrupts them to hear it from you (trust me personal experience).

you're seeing visible tolls on your personality and your positive affect that are starting to bother you

this is a sign you've done enough damage to warrant an extended (possibly permanent) break from that class of drugs...the negatives have added up too great...

why not smoke a blast of DMT and see what that does to your head and your perspective on your own health?

when was the last time you broke through on DMT?

 

[An Iz]

Not to derail, but while people are responsible for their own decisions, those decisions happen In Context!

I still see a problem for people who read everything at face value and don't think about the larger picture while looking at this thread. (Young people expecially.) They can still be mislead by a lot of posts here.

~~

If I wasn't so new and if people didn't hate it when the new guy suggests shit, I'd say that maybe this thread could benefit from some colored warning texts here and there, maybe on the first post on each page, for the young googlers. As another raised catholic, that would assuage my guilt (which I feel as partially justified because I contributed some positive hype to this chem myself.)