• Neuroscience & Pharmacology Discussion Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Recent Journal Articles Chemistry Mega-Thread
    FREE Chemistry Databases! Self-Education Guide

  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

DEA propose to ban precursors

AlsoTapered said:
Sure, you will certainly wind up with CO, not CO2. BUT CO burns and I was under the impression that the theory behind thermobaric weapons was that they produce a longer pulse of energy (mostly heat). The hydrazine will wind up as nitrogen and bond-formation will yield energy and hydrogen which will produce energy as it burns.

That's why I suggested it would need a lot of oxygen but noted that the fragments would decrease in volume drawing in more oxidant i.e. oxygen.
Click to expand...
Thermobaric weapons are indeed designed to produce a longer-lasting, high-temperature and high-pressure pulse than conventional explosives. They function by dispersing a cloud of fuel that mixes with air before being ignited, creating a large explosion and a long-duration shock wave. Such weapons are usually oxygen-dependent because they rely on mixing with ambient air to fuel the explosion.

You're correct about the different combustion products involved in the detonation of various substances. In the case of hydrazine, it would decompose into nitrogen and hydrogen, and the hydrogen would further combust to produce water if enough oxygen were present. Similarly, CO would ideally combust to form CO2 if enough oxygen were available.

The idea that fragmenting the explosive charge could draw in more oxygen is an interesting one. However, the dynamics of explosions, especially of something as energetic and fast-reacting as an explosive, are extraordinarily complex. While it might seem that the decreasing volume of fragments could draw in more oxygen (based on principles like the Bernoulli effect), the rapid expansion of gaseous products and shock wave propagation might overwhelm any such effect. It's also crucial to consider that the rate of combustion might be much faster than the rate at which ambient oxygen could be drawn into the reaction zone, limiting the completeness of combustion.

So while you're correct that availability of oxygen is crucial for the completeness of combustion, the specifics of how much oxygen would be drawn into a rapidly expanding explosion are highly complex and would depend on a myriad of factors like the size of the charge, the specifics of the explosive material, the surrounding conditions, and so on.

Given the complexities and potential for harm, experimentation with explosive and thermobaric materials should only be conducted by qualified professionals in controlled environments, complying with all relevant safety regulations and ethical considerations.
 
Di-cyclopropylhydrazine is at least liquid, possibly even solid compound so the volume will definitely just increase when it decomposes to form nitrogen gas and gaseous hydrocarbon fragments.

If you compare the situation where it's packed in a spherical bomb, and another one where a long tube is filled with it, the combustion will almost certainly be more complete in the latter case because there is more surface area per volume.
 
polymath said:
Di-cyclopropylhydrazine is at least liquid, possibly even solid compound so the volume will definitely just increase when it decomposes to form nitrogen gas and gaseous hydrocarbon fragments.

If you compare the situation where it's packed in a spherical bomb, and another one where a long tube is filled with it, the combustion will almost certainly be more complete in the latter case because there is more surface area per volume.
Click to expand...
The discussion of explosive materials and their potential uses is sensitive and potentially dangerous, so I must be cautious in how I address this topic. However, I can discuss the theoretical aspects of combustion and chemical reactions.

In a general sense, for combustion reactions, surface area to volume ratio is indeed an important factor in determining the completeness of the reaction. A higher surface area allows for better mixing with oxidants, which can result in more complete combustion. The geometry of the container also impacts how effectively the fuel mixes with the oxidizer and, therefore, how completely it burns.

However, the combustion process in a high-energy reaction like the decomposition of a compound like di-cyclopropylhydrazine is extremely complex. In addition to the surface area-to-volume ratio, factors like pressure, temperature, and the presence of catalysts or inhibitors can all affect the completeness of the reaction. Furthermore, in a high-speed, high-pressure situation like an explosion, other factors like shockwave interactions and instabilities can have significant effects that are difficult to predict without detailed modeling and experimentation.

The combustion of complex organic compounds like di-cyclopropylhydrazine (assuming such a compound exists and is stable) can be highly variable and dependent on numerous factors. These could include:
  1. Initial State of the Compound: Is the compound a solid, liquid, or gas at the onset? Each state will have different surface area-to-volume ratios and different mixing characteristics with any oxidizing agents.
  2. Oxidizing Environment: The presence of oxygen or other oxidizers will affect the completeness and products of combustion.
  3. Pressure and Temperature: High pressure and temperature can change the kinetics of the reaction, often speeding up the rate of combustion and possibly making it more complete.
  4. Presence of Catalysts or Inhibitors: Substances that either speed up or slow down the reaction can affect the completeness of the combustion.
  5. Reaction Pathways: Complex organic compounds can often decompose in multiple ways, leading to a variety of products.
  6. Shockwaves: In explosive decompositions, shockwaves can compress material, raise temperatures and pressures, and affect the rate and completeness of combustion.
The transition from a liquid or solid phase to gaseous products would indeed result in a volume increase, which is part of what drives the explosive force of such reactions. However, whether or not that leads to more complete combustion is a question that would require detailed study, taking into account all of the aforementioned factors, plus many others.
 
polymath said:
Di-cyclopropylhydrazine is at least liquid, possibly even solid compound so the volume will definitely just increase when it decomposes to form nitrogen gas and gaseous hydrocarbon fragments.

If you compare the situation where it's packed in a spherical bomb, and another one where a long tube is filled with it, the combustion will almost certainly be more complete in the latter case because there is more surface area per volume.
Click to expand...

No - I meant the ring-opening decreasing the volume because nothing will fit inside that cyclopropyl yet it takes up space.

A few high-density rocket-fuels also use ring-strain to increase the amount of energy stored. The Russians seem to have really worked on that field with quite complex cage-like structures.

But you will be unsurprised to learn that their viscosity/temperature curves are unfavourable so I don't THINK they are actually in use.

Of course, no shortage of oxidant in those cases.

I'm glad they have now weened themselves off RFNA AKA 'Dragon's Breath'
 
AlsoTapered said:
No - I meant the ring-opening decreasing the volume because nothing will fit inside that cyclopropyl yet it takes up space.

A few high-density rocket-fuels also use ring-strain to increase the amount of energy stored. The Russians seem to have really worked on that field with quite complex cage-like structures.

But you will be unsurprised to learn that their viscosity/temperature curves are unfavourable so I don't THINK they are actually in use.

Of course, no shortage of oxidant in those cases.

I'm glad they have now weened themselves off RFNA AKA 'Dragon's Breath'
Click to expand...
Ah, I see what you mean about the ring-opening decreasing the volume due to the removal of internal voids in the cyclopropyl ring. The strain energy in such small, highly-strained rings could indeed provide a significant amount of energy upon opening, and that energy could contribute to the overall energy release during decomposition or combustion.

The use of ring-strained compounds as high-energy density materials is an interesting area of research in materials science and chemistry. Such compounds can theoretically store more energy due to their high strain energy, as you noted. However, these compounds are often highly reactive and can be difficult to handle safely, as they can be prone to unintended decomposition.

As for the viscosity/temperature curves of such materials, those would indeed be important factors in their usability as rocket fuels. High viscosities can make it difficult to pump the fuel, while temperature-sensitive viscosities could require heating or cooling systems, adding complexity and potential failure points to rocket designs.

As you pointed out, oxidant availability is not a problem in rocket combustion, as oxidizers are part of the rocket fuel mix. This is unlike many other combustion situations, where the availability of oxygen can limit the completeness of combustion.

Lastly, you mentioned RFNA (Red Fuming Nitric Acid), also colloquially known as "Dragon's Breath," which is a highly reactive oxidizer that has been used in rocketry but is highly corrosive and toxic, making it difficult and dangerous to handle. Advances in rocket fuel technology have produced more stable and safer-to-handle oxidizers, which is certainly a beneficial development in the field.

It's an incredibly complex and multidisciplinary area of study, requiring expertise in chemistry, physics, materials science, and engineering to fully understand and make advances.
 
Serhat said:
The critique you're leveling at the DEA (Drug Enforcement Administration) is one that has been expressed by various critics, scholars, and activists who question the effectiveness and goals of the agency, especially within the broader context of the War on Drugs (WoD). There are several points you're touching on here, so let's unpack them:

Effectiveness and Goals:​

  1. Inter-Agency Cooperation: Critics question why the DEA seems to have turned a blind eye to alleged illicit activities by other government organizations, like the CIA's rumored involvement in drug trafficking.
  2. Pharmaceutical Companies: As you mentioned, critics argue that the DEA hasn't done enough to regulate and act against pharmaceutical companies like Purdue Pharma that have contributed to the opioid crisis.
  3. Accountability: The DEA operates under the U.S. Department of Justice, but critics wonder if the agency is effectively held accountable by the American public or any democratic institutions.

Impact:​

  1. Cartels: Despite the DEA's efforts, drug cartels continue to operate, and some argue that U.S. policies have in some ways empowered rather than dismantled these organizations.
  2. Harm Reduction: Some critics question the DEA's stance on harm reduction policies, which are aimed at minimizing the public health impact of drug use rather than focusing solely on criminalization.

Financial Interests:​

  1. Funding and Pensions: Critics claim the DEA is more interested in securing its own funding than in effectively combating drug abuse and trafficking.
  2. Harm Reduction Industry: You also point out that there's an industry built around harm reduction and treatment that financially benefits from the ongoing drug crisis.

Moral and Humanitarian Aspect:​

  1. War on Drugs: The human cost of the War on Drugs is immense, affecting millions of lives through imprisonment, violence, and social disruption. Critics argue that a more humane and effective approach is needed.
While these criticisms are voiced by various stakeholders, it's important to note that the DEA would likely contest many of these points, arguing that they do play a crucial role in drug enforcement and public safety. Nonetheless, the topics you bring up are part of an important debate about drug policy, law enforcement, and public health in the United States.

Note: The last part of your message seems to be referring to the chemical aspects of drug production and usage, which is a different but also important topic.
Click to expand...
This is a good example of how ChatGPT can appear to answer a question or provide new information when it’s actually just rephrasing the initial message (some might call it ‘word salad’).

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way. It’s ok to use AI in your posts, but be aware of its limitations when responding to certain threads, especially those involving sensitive topics or advanced discussions (I'm not really talking about this particular post btw, it was just a good example).
 
4meSM said:
This is a good example of how ChatGPT can appear to answer a question or provide new information when it’s actually just rephrasing the initial message (some might call it ‘word salad’).

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way. It’s ok to use AI in your posts, but be aware of its limitations when responding to certain threads, especially those involving sensitive topics or advanced discussions (I'm not really talking about this particular post btw, it was just a good example).
Click to expand...
Hey, thanks for the heads-up! Just wanted to clear the air my answer wasn't all ChatGPT. I also did some Googling to put together what I thought was a more rounded reply. I totally get that AI has its limits, especially on touchy or complex topics. That's why I like to mix in some good ol' fashioned human research too. Really appreciate your caution about relying too much on AI it's good advice
 
AlsoTapered said:
A few high-density rocket-fuels also use ring-strain to increase the amount of energy stored. The Russians seem to have really worked on that field with quite complex cage-like structures.
Click to expand...
Much like the cubane hydrocarbons that were probably developed with this type of application in mind. One another way to pack energy to a molecule, I think, is to add double and triple bonds to some organic ring of many atoms:

(1Z,5Z)-1,5-Cyclooctadiene-3,7-diyne | C8H4 | ChemSpider

Structure, properties, spectra, suppliers and links for: (1Z,5Z)-1,5-Cyclooctadiene-3,7-diyne.
www.chemspider.com www.chemspider.com

That way it should have significant ring strain but because of the size of the ring it can twist to some shape that keeps it stable at room temperature.

In addition to mining and space rocket fuel use, another peaceful application of high energy materials is the generation of high pressure for creation of compounds that are usually made with a diamond anvil press. Such as the lonsdaleite crystals which are like another form of a diamond lattice. The maximum pressure in a detonation can be increased by using multi-point initiation where several primers start the reaction from several locations simultaneously.

But this was a bit off-topic... About drug precursor availability I would say that (as AlsoTapered seemed to imply) when usual precursors are not available then people try to find new drugs that can be made from chemicals that are not controlled yet. Those doing this may not be the same kind of people as the classical "drug cooks", though. And new drugs can have unknown side effects. This is a bit analogous to how the difficulty of obtaining nitrates and perchlorates for a pyrotechnics hobby may lead to foolish people experimenting with acetone peroxide and other especially dangerous compounds.
 
polymath said:
y I would say that (as AlsoTapered seemed to imply) when usual precursors are not available then people try to find new drugs that can be made from chemicals that are not controlled yet. Those doing this may not be the same kind of people as the classical "drug cooks", though. And new drugs can have unknown side effects. This is a bit analogous to how the difficulty of obtaining nitrates and perchlorates for a pyrotechnics hobby may lead to foolish people experimenting with acetone peroxide and other especially dangerous compounds.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I know SO MANY people claim to have 'invented' (isn't discovered the correct term) BUT it is my belief that it was first made in an attempt to produce a novel stimulant with serotonergic activity by a small-scale Russian chemist who had:

-Toluene
-propanoyl chloride (or propanoic acid + thionyl chloride, I forget which)
-Bromine
-Methylamine

and some simple reagents & solvents to hand, I think p-Me amphetamine WAS already known (it was popular in Russia where they inject every kind of drug) and he figured that MAYBE a cathinone version MIGHT work. This is my memory from Russian Hyperlab from about 1992.

(S)he made it and posted that it was 'REALLY good - a bit like speed, a bit like MDMA, a bit like cocaine' . I think someone saw those posts and realized that it was uncontrolled. Certainly the same guy also made methiopropamine for the same reasons.

It's a VERY obscure source but back then Russian home-chemists were kind of besting each other in the search for drugs that used the least likely precursors AND the simplest (telescoped) synthesis. I mean, the nation who figured out how to make desomorphine directly from codeine? I have previously posted on the identities of the impurities that make it 'Krokodil' and why it destroys flesh and bones. It's SIMPLE to clean but it's more work so 95% of people who made it whacked up the mixture.

Maybe others did independently discover it, but my memory of this is quite clear. I have no doubt in my mind that it's huge popularity in the 00s was because it's SO cheap to produce, adulterating isn't going to improve profits by much.

Amazing isn't it, THIS I remember, my own telephone number, no idea.

But if such simple materials and basic methods work, legal controls of drugs is the worst hazard. In Russia people share needles and even use glass paper to sharpen the pin because getting works is difficult and you WILL be arrested if caught with them without a good reason.
 
^ I'm not sure if you tried to reply to someone else's post there, as I didn't write anything about 4-methylmethcathinone. Or is some MitM attack showing you a false version of the forum if you don't read it through a proxy? Actually, I first thought "But doesn't this produce ortho-methylmethcathinone too as a side product?" but then found out that in Friedel-Crafts acylation of toluene it's almost 100% para product. Maybe I have seen this somewhere when I was younger but didn't remember it right away.

Anyway, a Friedel-Crafts reaction is a bit difficult for a kitchen/bathtub drug cook as it's moisture sensitive almost like Grignard. And the alpha-bromopropiophenone derivative formed as an intermediate is likely to be a bad lachrymator that requires a gas mask when handling it. At least it doesn't evaporate as quickly as phenacyl bromide, but it could be made even less volatile by producing the 4-ethyl version instead to increase the boiling point.
 
polymath said:
^ I'm not sure if you tried to reply to someone else's post there, as I didn't write anything about 4-methylmethcathinone. Or is some MitM attack showing you a false version of the forum if you don't read it through a proxy? Actually, I first thought "But doesn't this produce ortho-methylmethcathinone too as a side product?" but then found out that in Friedel-Crafts acylation of toluene it's almost 100% para product. Maybe I have seen this somewhere when I was younger but didn't remember it right away.

Anyway, a Friedel-Crafts reaction is a bit difficult for a kitchen/bathtub drug cook as it's moisture sensitive almost like Grignard. And the alpha-bromopropiophenone derivative formed as an intermediate is likely to be a bad lachrymator that requires a gas mask when handling it. At least it doesn't evaporate as quickly as phenacyl bromide, but it could be made even less volatile by producing the 4-ethyl version instead to increase the boiling point.
Click to expand...

I think in the time I took to write the post, others posted,

I understood the 4-ethyl was simply to get around the law?

These Russians were adept at building labs so don't think for a moment he didn't have appropriate equipment, it was just precursors he lacked. I've seen some pretty impressive home-made fume-cupboards. OK no filters so they simply spew the toxic compounds up a chimney or similar BUT they work.

The same guy experimented with BBr3 to O-demethylate codeine to morphine and noted that 'I found all the bugs near the outlet of my fume cupboard dead!'. I know he couldn't get any more BBr3 (a good thing, I estimate) but he wanted to try to produce heroin from the morphine via transesterification. So they were certainly educated and motivated... but they also had that rather lax attitude to safety that seems uniquely Russian.

AFAIK he didn't make it again. He was ONLY interested in trying out new things.

But I read the thread and so did hundreds of others. In fact, is it stored on the Way Back Machine?
 
Why so angry? It's just their job. These days, you can't blame people for wanting job security.

Had to laugh at the quote - isn't their a US police saying that the easiest way to find a meth lab is to follow a fire truck? I bet THOSE people had convinced themselves how easy it was to make,
 
AlsoTapered said:
So I infer that since no US researchers ever resolved AMT, AET, 7-Me AMT or 7-Me AET.... I think a Soviet team in the 1970s DID.
I know I keep repeating the above but it just seems like nobody EVER responds - like for some reason they are able to grasp that their are 2 isomers of (meth)amphetamine and yet can't quite imagine how an alpha-alkyl tryptamine can possess exactly the same isomerism.
Click to expand...
Blough et al 2014 characterized the enantiomers of AET at monoamine release and 5-HT2A. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.bmcl.2014.07.062
 
Many thanks for that, Good find!

Library Genesis

libgen.pm libgen.pm

Now everyone can read it, All we did was resolve AMT... and try both isomers. We certainly didn't have the funding and resources to do THIS. But it's nice to feel we were right. They even compare it to MDMA.
 
Last edited:
AlsoTapered said:
Of course, I would be VERY cautious with ANY dizocilpine derivatives. …. I suggest it's because it also has affinity for some subtypes of the nicotinic receptors and some of them make deadly poisons.
Click to expand...

Hi AT! Coming in late to the game here but if you see this, what leads you to believe nicotinic receptor affinity may contribute to deaths in dizclopine/MK-801 ingestion? I recall reading a case of a fatality involving MK-801 and.was stuck wondering just what led to decedents demise.

Is nicontinic receptor affinity a common hallmark of some of these novel NMDAR antagonists?

Also, I enjoy your posts, man. Very knowledgeable.
 
BTW I'm almost certain the 'unique impurity' found in Russian supplied BMK is 4-tert butyl PMK

That's kind of interesting since it's not so obvious where and how this side-product would be formed. Alkylation of an aromatic ring takes quite harsh conditions and if I had to guess I would suggest that methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) is being used as the solvent in a Grignard reaction. MTBE is produced in vast amounts as an octane booster for unleaded petrol and I'm prepared to bet that a small amount of tert-butyl alcohol is an acceptable impurity for that purpose.

So someone is likely going from benzyl chloride which is actually a lot of work. No doubt someone is producing BMK at a huge scale. I don't know how Russian law treats BMK but it's the kind of grey market product that organized criminals would go for.

But the ODDEST of all is that (2-nitropropyl)benzene, (2-nitro-1-prop-1-yl)benzene and all of their ring-substituted derivative are NOT controlled. That they both )all) represent a 1-pot synthesis to a (ring substituted) amphetamine is well documented and in fact now their are even chiral reductions for the latter compound so although it might be more costly, one could produce dexamphetamine or a ring-substituted derivative such as MDA.

I should add that benzaldehyde, pipironal and nitroethane are all listed BUT only above (quite large) thresholds.

'The ways of commerce are exceedingly odd'
-John Maynard Keynes
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top