Harm Reduction Cross drug dependency?

[Zephyn]

Is it possible to develop a physical dependency by switching between different related drugs - say, gabapentinoids, alcohol, benzos, etc, but always having something occupying shared receptors? Or for example if someone switched between like tramadol and hydrocodone (though these are more closely related than say, phenibut and alcohol) just often enough to avoid dependency?

 

[MsDiz]

Is it possible to develop a physical dependency by switching between different related drugs - say, gabapentinoids, alcohol, benzos, etc, but always having something occupying shared receptors? Or for example if someone switched between like tramadol and hydrocodone (though these are more closely related than say, phenibut and alcohol) just often enough to avoid dependency?

In regards to the tramadol and hydrocodone you’ll run into issues with the SNRI withdrawal if you suddenly stop the tramadol even if you switch to hydrocodone.

Cross tolerance is definitely something to be aware of though.

 

[Zephyn]

In regards to the tramadol and hydrocodone you’ll run into issues with the SNRI withdrawal if you suddenly stop the tramadol even if you switch to hydrocodone.

Cross tolerance is definitely something to be aware of though.

Cross tolerance, sure, but can that cause dependency? Say phenibut and alcohol, or gabepentin and Xanax? Alternating?

 

[MsDiz]

It would all matter on how long you were doing it but yes, definitely if you were using for a significant period it would cause dependency.

 

[Zephyn]

It would all matter on how long you were doing it but yes, definitely if you were using for a significant period it would cause dependency.

So, if someone took Xanax for 5 days, switched to phenibut for a week, then drank for a week, then took a week off and repeated over time they could become physically addicted even though they didn't use the same drug every day? Never heard of that before. I might have some dependencies from this sort of cross drug interaction. What kind of withdrawal would they even get?

 

[Joey]

They use benzos to treat alcohol withdrawals, is my case in point that yes you can cross tolerance over drug classes. Thats not done as a tolerance builder or even really an example of tolerance but its 2 classes of drugs that act biologically so similar they are interchangeable. If Im wrong someone let me know.

 

[Zephyn]

Yeah I knew they built cross tolerance and could substitute in certain circumstances, but did not know you could develop a physical addiction from just hitting the same receptors constantly with different drugs.

 

[Joey]

Yeah I knew they built cross tolerance and could substitute in certain circumstances, but did not know you could develop a physical addiction from just hitting the same receptors constantly with different drugs.

Theres been discussion that MDMA and meth have cross tolerance too. MDMA and meth are both in same or similar class though. Im no expert on this but it is definitely something that can happen.

Like if you take oxy 80s daily youll have cross tolerance to codeine, hyrdos, heroin, whatever. I figure that if your hitting the same receptors all the time too, and thus the ability for thosr receptors to release their chemicals is hindered, that would definitely increase your tolerance across those receptors too. You cant feel what isnt biochemically there to feel.

subjective experience as well. Psychedelics, Ive done plenty so trying one thats new isnt so overwhelming or novel as it would be otherwise. Handle it better.

 

[Zephyn]

Theres been discussion that MDMA and meth have cross tolerance too. MDMA and meth are both in same or similar class though. Im no expert on this but it is definitely something that can happen.

Like if you take oxy 80s daily youll have cross tolerance to codeine, hyrdos, heroin, whatever. I figure that if your hitting the same receptors all the time too, and thus the ability for thosr receptors to release their chemicals is hindered, that would definitely increase your tolerance across those receptors too. You cant feel what isnt biochemically there to feel.

subjective experience as well. Psychedelics, Ive done plenty so trying one thats new isnt so overwhelming or novel as it would be otherwise. Handle it better.

Yeah but does tolerance correlate with dependency in a way I haven't linked?

 

[Joey]

Yeah but does tolerance correlate with dependency in a way I haven't linked?

I don't know how to answer this.

 

[Zephyn]

I don't know how to answer this.

Well, im talking about physical dependency, that would cause a withdrawal effect and you both keep mentioning tolerance for some reason

 

[MsDiz]

So, if someone took Xanax for 5 days, switched to phenibut for a week, then drank for a week, then took a week off and repeated over time they could become physically addicted even though they didn't use the same drug every day? Never heard of that before. I might have some dependencies from this sort of cross drug interaction. What kind of withdrawal would they even get?

You’d be increasing your tolerance which would lead to you increasing your dose which would lead to dependence.

 

[cosmic charlie]

Yes if you keep hitting the same receptor type with alternating drugs from the same class you will get physically addicted, even tho your bouncing around compounds I do it with Opioids constantly. But it works the same way with drugs that act on Gaba receptor and its sub units depending on which they touch.

 

[Pickledlemons]

Yes, you are addicted to the stimulation of neurotransmitters not the drug itself, so if the drug is similar enough you are dependent right away. I had a friend that thought he could avoid opioid addiction by taking a different opioid every day of the week haha I told him it wouldn't work he didn't listen of course.

 

[Zephyn]

Well great. On top of my life stresses, I think I'm dependent on gaba drugs. And it seems like it might take way longer to get over and be able to function than coming off a normal addiction. My brain is a mess. I've been abusing every type of drug for a long time. In the past, even 3 months totally sober didn't have me feeling better. Now because I just refuse to give in to addiction, im miserable even when using occasionally, id probably have a better chance at surviving if i just bit the bullet and took Xanax and maybe even methadone every day. The stress of coming on and off drugs is worse than just using every day I think.

 

[MsDiz]

there is should be no Cross drug dependency between gabapentinoids, and alcohol
but there a cross dependency between benzo and alcohol
its all related to receptors that the drug act in, benzo and alcohol act on GABA receptors so Cross drug dependency is there
but gabapentinoids act on α2δ-1 α2δ-2 calcium channels so there is not cross dependency between them

There is for sure cross dependency between gabapentinoids. Gabapentin and pregabalin for instance. Tolerance builds so quickly as well.

 

[MsDiz]

yes thats what i mean there a cross dependency between gabapentinoids. like Gabapentin and pregabalin etc.. but no cross dependency between gabapentinoids and benzo/alcohol

Sorry, it’s just the way it’s written.

Yea, gabapentin and benzos/alcohol wouldn’t have a cross dependency.

 

[Zephyn]

Gabapentin and alcohol wouldn't due to both working on nmda and gaba receptors? And couldn't gabapentin and benzos, just in a different way?

 

[4meSM]

Gabapentin and alcohol wouldn't due to both working on nmda and gaba receptors? And couldn't gabapentin and benzos, just in a different way?

Alcohol acts as a weak NMDA antagonist but even traditional dissociatives don't cause significant dependency AFAIK, so I don't think you should be too worried about that.
Gabapentin is primarily a calcium channel blocker so it has a very different mechanism than banzos and alcohol.

I believe that the cross-tolerance issue comes from the fact that both gabapentinoids and benzos have an inhibitory effect on the CNS. Gabapentinoids might end up having a gabaergic effect downstream (not directly like benzos), so the brain ends up enhancing glutamate (which has an excitatory effect) in order to balance things out.

Phenibut (the R isomer) is a bit different because it does bind to GABA B receptors, albeit weakly, its main mechanism of action is through calcium channels (like other gabapentinoids).

Overall, I think you'll have an easier time coming off than if you had been taking the same type of drug every single day. Unless of course you were dependent on both gabapentinoids and benzos (you'd definitely know if you were dependent on alcohol though).

 

[Zephyn]

I might be dealing with some rebound effects from moderate benzo usage. Can they last 2-3 weeks? So phenibut might interfere with the rebound effects going away, but alcohol won't? Does alcohol effect gaba in the same way as benzos?