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Could you send some one you loved to Hell?

psychoblast

Bluelighter
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Oct 11, 2000
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As most of you probably already know, I have a lot of problems with Christianity, and occasionally I ask for feedback on here about some conflict I perceive within the Christian teachings.

I have not brought this one up before. My question relates to Christians teaching that God loves everyone, while at the same time teaching that God will send people to Hell if they don't jump through the right hoops (i.e., believe the New Testament to be true).

Can anyone here reconcile loving a person and sending that person to Hell for eternity because that person failed some test you set for them to see if they happened to choose the right religious belief out of the hundreds of competing options in this world? It seems to be a fundamentally conflicted (and thus illogical) premise.

~psychoblast~
 
There is organized religion for you. Full of bullshit and contradictions.

I am sorry if my reply is not constructive, but I view organized religion as a waste because it gives no room to think for yourself therefore I cannot give a relevant response to your question.
 
I think part of this has to do with what you think Hell is. I think Hell is no longer existing. Being removed from the book of life - ie, having your soul die, seems like Hell to me. I struggle with this aspect of Christianity and I'm not sure where I stand. I don't know how I would feel if those I loved went to Hell.. I do think it is possible to go to Heaven without believing in the New Testament and Jesus Christ. Sohi made a good post that those who are more knowledgable are held to higher standards.. ignorance doesn't force on into going to Hell and thus, good people who know nothing of Christianity due to whatever circumstances will go to Heaven on other premises..

On a side note, this raises the question - Can I love somebody that will end up in Hell? I don't love very many people and I think the people I do love are pretty good and will likely end up in Heaven, but who knows..
 
With every teaching there are many interpritations and even spinsters that try to sell ya snake oil by putting a sacred symbol on a bottle of horsepiss.

I also do not believe that God is so sadistic he'd make a world full of landmines then throw us into it to see who gets their legs blown off from under them.
 
No. There is certainly a contradiction when some supposed `father' claims they love their children and then proceeds to send their children to a place of eternal damnation if they don't follow a certain set of rules without having any way of knowing if these rules are from the `father' in question. Especially if that person leads an otherwise good life and yet finds no logical reason to believe in the existence of the so-called `father'.
 
"knowing the rules" is pretty damn obvious in my oppinion. Everytime I have done something I know is morally questionable, a red light goes off in my head that makes me ask, "should I be doing this?" If I go ahead and do it, that's crossing the line. This isn't rocket science. The 10 commandments are pretty damn easy rules to follow. God gave us free will but he didn't give us a life without consequences, sounds like it makes sense to me.
 
^^^
Buy God created the consequences. A father does not kill his son for misbehaving. A parent never gives up on a child completely, not if they love them.

God could have made the penalty for disobedience a time of punishment followed by another round at life to get it right. To make the punishment eternal torture in Hell is the unthinkable, unbelievable part if, in fact, God loves everyone.

And everyone has crossed that line in which their mind says "you should not be doing this" and then you feel bad about it later. Is everyone going to Hell? Those who are just as bad, but happen to be born Christian, get pardoned if they say, "Forgive me Jesus" but those who say "Forgive me Allah" or "Forgive me Vishnu" have no such luck and are condemned?

Or are we back to the watered down, non-doctrinal fake Christian idea that so long as you aren't a murderer or rapist, God will overlook your sins and let you into Heaven?

~psychoblast~
 
Morality differs from person to person. Its not something inherent in external things; its not a quality of the objective universe -- it's an interpretation of behavior or nature that is influenced by culture but ultimately specific to the individual. In one culture belching after a meal is considered rude; in another, not belching after a meal is rude. In some societies, its acceptable, even expected, to eat the dead. And impolite to not belch after eating your poor old dead granny. Different game rules for different societies.

Morality is also specific to situation most of the time. Kill a person for killing someone you love and that's murder. Kill an innocent civilian during a time of war and its an acceptable loss.

We have free will and we ave consequences, but every god and moral system is of our own creation. The 10 commandments are very easy rules to follow; so is killing everyone with brown hair, but I wouldn't value and follow such a rule based on the simplicity of it; the ease with which it could be followed. And damn straight it isn't rocket science -- rocket science isn't all in your head.
 
psychoblast said:
God could have made the penalty for disobedience a time of punishment followed by another round at life to get it right. To make the punishment eternal torture in Hell is the unthinkable, unbelievable part if, in fact, God loves everyone.

which is why I view the more atypical eastern view (particularly buddhist/hindu obviously) of karma, reincarnation etc. as not only more fulfilling but more logical! Your life is influenced, even shaped by what you have done in past lives, but this shouldn't mean you should apathetic and out of control of your life; since everyone strives for a better life and to reach happiness, everyone is equally capable of reaching the point of liberation, if they can accept that the basis of life is suffering. in a nutshell anyway

In my opinion, the reason why i was always so disillusioned by christian teachings - this omnipotent god creates and loves you but will damn you eternally if you do any number of things or choose to lead a less than strictly pious life. I've never subscribed to any organized religions because of that, merely made up my own set of beliefs and come to my own set of conclusions from a series of different ones! I take ideas from everywhere. :D life is too short to have such a narrow perspective (especially religously and spiritually!)

peace :)
 
Psychonaut777 said:
I think part of this has to do with what you think Hell is. I think Hell is no longer existing. Being removed from the book of life - ie, having your soul die, seems like Hell to me.

Ironic, considering that is the what Buddhists believe to be Nirvana.
 
Psychonaut777 said:
"knowing the rules" is pretty damn obvious in my oppinion. Everytime I have done something I know is morally questionable, a red light goes off in my head that makes me ask, "should I be doing this?"

Not everyone has the same red light. What i think is morally wrong maybe completely different from what you think is morally wrong. There is no definite list of things that are morally wrong. Obviously, it comes down to your morals and everyones are different. So maybe what I see as right, this God guy sees as wrong and damns me to hell for eternity. How can that be? If he even exists, he cant expect us all to know what it is he expects of us.

The way i see it, religion is created to keep people who are disgustingly closed minded from falling down the "wrong paths". But if you believe in free will, which means you arent religous, then there is no wrong path. Whatever path you take is the right path, as long as your happy with it. Theres no heaven or hell this way, thats why you enjoy life as much as possible, because its the only one youll ever have.

EDIT: I skipped over rewiiireds comment, so you can disregard this if you like. Sorry :\
 
I was nominally raised as a Christian, though I don't subscribe to their doctrinal beliefs anymore. That being said, I have incorporated a good number of Jesus' teachings into my own personal spiritual beliefs and I'll attempt to explain some of my own interpretations and extrapolations.

I view Jesus (I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he actually existed) as a shamanic/Gautama-like figure. I interpret his teachings as being those of somewhat of a New Age-type self-help figure for that particular period. For instance, I interpret the teaching "whosoever believeth in me shall have eternal life" NOT to imply that there is some eternal afterlife realm awaiting us upon our actual physical deaths (assuming we make the cut, of course), but that if one has faith in one's "God-self", one will experience perennial "rebirth" and renewal vis-a-vis the ability to forgive oneself for one's mistakes and cleanse oneself of the spirit-killing effects of excessive self-criticism and the judgment of others. Ideally, if one could experience the rejuvenating experience of "dying" (i.e., failing) and being "reborn" anew(and when I say that, I am NOT referring to the hokey fundamentalist Christian concept) every passing instant of one's actual ORGANIC life, shedding the skin of the old and rejoicing in that of the new, then what a wondrously vibrant experience that life would be.

When Jesus spoke of entering "the Kingdom of God", I believe he was really referring to something akin to the nirvana state espoused by the Buddha. Likewise, I believe Jesus' concept of "hell" referred to the state of spiritual death one experiences when one is overwhelmed by self-doubt and succumbs to that despair, rather than any actual realm to which one is sentenced on some eventual day of reckoning.

Granted, these interpretations are entirely contradictory to Christian doctrine...therefore, I don't consider myself a Christian. I believe that many of the problematic doctrines of the Christian faith were drafted on later by opportunistic self-promoters such as Paul and the early canonical leaders, corrupting Jesus' rather profoundly simple spiritual insights and wisdom. In fact, I think it's almost impossible to glean ANY insight into Jesus' life as a historical figure, since so much of it appears, imo at least, to have been mythologized for the purpose of making the religion palatable and sellable to the Roman Empire. Clearly, Christianity was dead in the water had it not been "sold" to the Romans, since the Jewish orthodoxy had already rejected it.

I also reject, as Thomas Jefferson did, the divinity of Christ and the notion of the immaculate conception.

So essentially I have attempted to remove the contradictions inherent in the Christian faith, while retaining and incorporating the insights in which I find personal spiritual meaning.

Basically, though, with every individual it comes down to this, imo...based on your own reflection and thought, either accept or reject Pascal's Wager, and then be comfortable with your decision either way...suffer "fools" gladly ;) (<---extremely tongue in cheek, as essentially we are all vain "fools" and should also suffer ourselves gladly).

I remember watching the movie "Event Horizon", in which a particular garbled Latin transmission from a foundering space station was translated as "Save Us". However, later in the movie the character translating the transmission realized that the message was properly translated as "Save Yourself"...I realized in watching the film that the movie's metaphor mirrored my own evolving spiritual beliefs.

Some people need spiritual structure, while others don't. As long as you are secure in your personal beliefs regarding spirituality (or lack thereof), then you are "free"...whatever gets you through the day, in other words. If it is necessary for a person to have an external source to which to cling, and that external source in turn empowers (by way of "commands") the person to better himself and live harmoniously with others, then so be it...some people are like children in terms of their spiritual evolution, and they need that external structure. Who am I to judge the relative spiritual and/or intellectual strength or weakness of another individual in terms of the intrinsic "value" of that person?

Imo though, you bear no responsibility for the securing of any other individual's spiritual "life". It is up to each one of us to "save ourselves".
 
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How are you sending a loved one to Hell? God's sending them to Hell.

Do you mean "Could you send someone to Hell while you go to Heaven"?
 
^ indeed - if you were ever given such a choice - or so great a person to make that decision. what do you mean?
 
This is all bullshit. It should go like this:

If i gave my life up for that person, and was hung on a cross for them, and then they chose on their OWN to deny my sacrifice for them, and by doing so sent themselves to hell, would i be willing to say to them "well, even though i did what i did for you and you chose on your own to deny it happened, i am willing to let you hang out with me in heaven with the rest of those who DID choose to accept my sacrifice." That is what you are asking...If that is the case, then i wouldnt have gone through the brutal death on the cross in the first place!

Also, lets add to it that throughout my loved ones life they had people sent to them by me to tell them that they saw my death and that it was real and that i love them, and want them to come back to me and just acknowledge me - and i will forgive them unconditionally! And my loved one after having an entire life of me calling them and having others telling them to respond to my calls STILL chose to not "believe" in me and my sacrifice, then by their OWN choice i would not interfeer with the consequences they brought upon themselves. It is their life to do with as they wish....

And for the record, the Bible clearly states that those with the most knowledge are judged to higher standards. We are all judged according to what we have been exposed to. A tribal person in Africa who has never heard of Jesus can still be saved, read the book of Romans and you would know this...God judges the heart.

Oh yeah, also add into your ridiculous scenerio that i would have magic powers to read my loved ones heart to know whether they really believed in me or not, even if they said they did, i would know whether they were lying or not.

So given all of that, if they "chose" hell who am i to stop them? Plus, i dont know what "hell" exactly is at this point. I believe hell is just a seperation from God for all eternity, not just some big lake of fire. I believe that is reserved for the demons and most evil people. I dont believe everyone will be tortured in hell, the punishment is not having Gods presence for all eternity.
 
You miss the point. Why is it so damned important to Jesus that people acknowledge his sacrifice in order to receive the benefits? Would a parent refuse to give their child help unless they are asked? Would a parent refuse to give their child help, refuse to save that child from pain and torture, just because the child does not ask for the help?

Love is not meant to be conditioned on what is done for YOU. If Jesus conditions the gift of salvation on people jumping through hoops for him, passing some "test" then he clearly does NOT love everyone.

You are also forgetting that God created everything and set up the whole system. So it is not like there is some system of souls going to Hell automatically, without God's will, and Jesus just happens to rescue those who ask him nicely. Rather, God set it all up for people who do NOT ask for rescue to go to Hell.

I would also note that this is sort of like putting the cart before the horse. Basically, Jesus demands that we be GRATEFUL to him for saving us -- before he even saves us. I damn well bet that anyone--Christian or not--who dies and wakes up in Heaven and learns he (or she) was saved from Hell only because of Jesus' suffering and love for that person, will CERTAINLY be grateful and will love Jesus and follow Jesus. This whole system "You must be thankful to Jesus before you reap the benefits for which you are thanking him" is pretty damn fubar.

I mean, let's assume Jesus just does not want to share Heaven with those who offend him by not recognizing and praising his sacrifice, those who go so far as to even deny his status as son of God. Why not create a separate place for those people to go that is not a firey pit of eternal torture under control of some sadistic ex-angel? I mean, you act like the natural order of things is to have just these two destinations after death. Yet Jesus IS God and God created everything and is omnipotent. If God wanted, there could be 3, 4, or 4 million afterlifes.

~psychoblast~
 
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