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Could a military coup occur in the US? Could it make things better?

SKL

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[Extracted from a side conversation in the Trump presidency thread]

(I had mentioned my view that I've articulated several times in CE&P in various ways that a coup d'etat might be the most promising road to reform in the U.S., thus the ensuing discussion in this thread; it is a topic in fact I'd like to discuss in a wider context, as for me, I see it as the only real solution to our intractable problems here, although where it would go, and how it would happen, are huge questions; even, if it can happen. In the original context, at the same time, I often spoke critically of the 'deep state,' thus consumer asks reasonably—)
 
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A fair and complex question. Also perhaps worthy of it's own thread. I do not see this is a realistic thing to happen soon, in this presidential term or maybe in this decade. Things will have to get much worse in this country but they are on track to. So maybe, as things get worse, people in the military will stand up. And I think it would be the best hope to fix things. I am envisioning a coup around the level of the colonels, no higher, this is historically where many or most coups actually start, as the generals are too invested in politics and the deep state as I've called it and the military-industrial-intelligence-congressional-oedipal complex, whereas the colonels and under are more strictly involved with military matters although of course it is still political. The average soldier, though, and the average officer, at least in the lower echelons, share the values of the American people because they are, of course, American people (and one might think they're overwhelmingly conservative, which actually isn't true, there was recently a poll done about this that I read somewhere), and many of them hate the system as it is, resent the spooks and the deep state, resent what's happening to their families back home, the government-by-big-banks and so forth. Now, and this might also be worth it's own thread, due to the structure of the American military, it'd be very, very hard to pull off a coup because the country is so large, the military so dispersed and complex in it's structure, etc.

It's virtually coup-proof, in terms of traditional coups as we see often in Latin America and other places, of course, so there would have to be some sort of organization and getting that many junior officers (in particular) to participate in the plot, which would have to involve at the very least seizing Washington DC, New York, headquarters of various agencies (especially FBI, CIA, NSA) and very importantly the various Internet hubs and data centers, with tanks and boots on the ground and everything; this just imagining in the East coast, on the West coast various media centers, Silicon Valley company headquarters (Google and Amazon in particular); as difficult as this would be, then significant manpower and even a nuclear equipped something or two as an absolute "don't tread on me"; no doubt never to be used, but as madman-theory-deterrent type thing. In certain parts of the country many citizens might join as armed militia along with the coup and ally themselves to hold down state capitals, etc. State governors and national guard units could defect. Almost as a secessionary movement in a sense but with an aim of taking the whole country, or, perhaps, splitting it up into different parts, which already exist, but splitting it up more formallly. Law enforcement could be an important ally especially if the messaging is right in terms of helping them defend against the increasing degeneracy and chaos. So hopefully things will be mostly bloodless.

Now, it would be difficult to get the American military to make war on itself, or to shoot American citizens especially their fellow soldiers. They would not fight a new Civil War. So at this might probably wind up in a sort of stalemate situation where then negotiations would proceed in forming a new government. A new Constitution even. Secession for some states, splitting the U.S. up into the several different countries it already is. Temporary military rule, trials for the wrongdoers, etc., then evolution into a better government. This is a fantasy right now. But perhaps in a generation, perhaps by some kind of new (or not so new, just newly applied) digital communications among the military for recruitment and organization, in the context of worse and worse economic and social conditions in the U.S., it just might be able to happen. It is a far out hope. But it is a hope. And it is I think our best hope to fix the nation.
 
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I wont quote SKL but i see what you are getting at. A military coup led from below so in a way led by ordinary people in the military and not the hierarchy which was what i was alluding to in the style of the Thai military who would have to be the coup experts but they do it to maintain their influence and that of the monarchy.

Ok so say this coup is successful. How would they go about neutralizing this deep state as they kind of depend on it for intelligence, procurement etc. Would the military be able to run a country as big and as complex as America? Do you imagine them letting power go at some stage or maintaining their grip.

You are right it probably should be in a different thread.
 
I've taken the liberty of making the new thread.

I will post my thoughts your questions a little bit later (although I actually edited my post to add some things probably after you had first read it…) but some of the options are splitting up the country, installing interim military government through the National Guard or the citizen militias or LE or the coup military units or whatever, and then holding negotiations with the government as it is to create different structures… but again, this is fantasy stuff, but I'll post more on it later…
 
I don't listen to talk radio at all, really, unless you count sports ;). "Deep state" is a pretty well known term in various circles, left and right, though.

I think we're to the point where military intervention is the only remote way to unfuck our society, vote or further cycles of military intervention be damned; and yes, I'd view it as an outside possibility, but it's really I think our only hope if things keep getting more and more fucked, as they are.
 
The thought of a military coup, from the lower ranks -- those still loyal to the American people above all -- is a nice thought, but is not remotely realistic at this point.

What most people fail to understand is, over the past 100 years (starting in earnest with Woodrow Wilson), an ethnic minority has entrenched itself as the hidden hand and ruling power at every level and in every facet of American life and society -- government, finance, media, etc. All American politicians, and the vast majority of the "deep state" remain in their positions only because they are subservient to this ethnic & "religious" minority. Should they step out of line and pursue a path which places the interest of the American people over the interests of this ruling elite and their marionettes who dutifully serve them, they are removed. Countless examples of this can be found throughout the 20th century, from military men like Patton, to representatives such as Senator Joseph McCarthy, all the way up to the president of the country, as was the case with JFK.

Most military personnel are indoctrinated to serve this same ruling establishment, and are no different than the civilian public itself in that they are oblivious to its very existence -- in which case it is impossible to fight against.

The sad reality is, the United States is nothing more than a subservient vassal state carrying out the orders of this ethnic & religious minority and its "homeland," the artificial state of "Israel." We are a host to a parasite and the American people are being bled dry and used for all we're worth, and eventually our usefulness will run its course. At this point, we will likely be cast aside in favor of a new, more favorable host, and a "reset" will ensue. When this comes to pass and how the American people move forward both remain to be seen. But the way I see it, not a thing can be done to change this trajectory, short of a mass awakening of the American people (which seems all but impossible at this point).

This is, of course, a VERY abbreviated summation of the current state of affairs...
 
perhaps if trump orders action against an organised and powerful foe for slim reasons. the generals may not be so willing to oblige and send the young to certain doom when nothing is actually at stake. a fracture may begin that way. otherwise, it's a long shot.
 
The thought of a military coup, from the lower ranks -- those still loyal to the American people above all -- is a nice thought, but is not remotely realistic at this point.

What most people fail to understand is, over the past 100 years (starting in earnest with Woodrow Wilson), an ethnic minority has entrenched itself as the hidden hand and ruling power at every level and in every facet of American life and society -- government, finance, media, etc. All American politicians, and the vast majority of the "deep state" remain in their positions only because they are subservient to this ethnic & "religious" minority. Should they step out of line and pursue a path which places the interest of the American people over the interests of this ruling elite and their marionettes who dutifully serve them, they are removed. Countless examples of this can be found throughout the 20th century, from military men like Patton, to representatives such as Senator Joseph McCarthy, all the way up to the president of the country, as was the case with JFK.

Most military personnel are indoctrinated to serve this same ruling establishment, and are no different than the civilian public itself in that they are oblivious to its very existence -- in which case it is impossible to fight against.

The sad reality is, the United States is nothing more than a subservient vassal state carrying out the orders of this ethnic & religious minority and its "homeland," the artificial state of "Israel." We are a host to a parasite and the American people are being bled dry and used for all we're worth, and eventually our usefulness will run its course. At this point, we will likely be cast aside in favor of a new, more favorable host, and a "reset" will ensue. When this comes to pass and how the American people move forward both remain to be seen. But the way I see it, not a thing can be done to change this trajectory, short of a mass awakening of the American people (which seems all but impossible at this point).

This is, of course, a VERY abbreviated summation of the current state of affairs...

This is no doubt true (and incidentally perhaps the only thing that Obama did to make me feel any pride as an American was to yelp a little more as the tail continued to wag the dog), but, really, is just symptomatic; the very same parasitical organ extends it's tendrils everywhere. Look at the recent Trump election, for instance, he was supported by many soi disant nationalist and identitarian White voting blocks and some actual organizations. While these groups finally finding more common cause, improved militancy, propaganda, indoctrination and in some cases more overt organization is a laudable thing; there is one thing that many of them were, are, and remain (willfully, all too often.) Something that gives me more affiliation with Farrakhan or Sharpton than with Trump, who's connections to Zionism even extend to his immediate (and very political) family. It is of course embedded in our military as well. A particularly cancerous form of the ideology is an appeal to certain highly questionable Christian eschatological viewpoints, although one heard much more about this during the GW Bush Administration, but which remains strong; in addition to this the idea of Zion or even Jewry itself (look how quickly even the FBI responds to, and great media attention is given to, treats against synagogues &c., with reactions looking quite like ones to national security issues.) as a bulkhead against islamism and Islamic terrorism is also something that many people particularly in the defense and National Security and intelligence sectors are indoctrinated into, quite early on; this was often just a baked-in assumption of many of my undergraduate international relations professors and even at the graduate level never was questioned by many, students and faculty alike across ideological lines and theoretical approaches and so forth (my thesis advisor and I were very much of the extremely realist persuasion; and still neither of spoke about Zionism to any degree even when discussing some relevant points of my thesis which touched upon apartheid Israeli domestic law as it touched on certain issues of international law.)

But the Zionist useful idiots aren't just in politics, military, academia, media ... although national polls routinely do not align to actual routine of policy and in general seem to be trending towards skepticism. Any real political change is going to involve putting American political and military Zionism on the table and absolutely eviscerating it in public opinion. Needless to say neither president Trump nor any of our elite media outlets are going to do this anytime soon but the very fact that Trump could have been elected does testify to the newly rediscovered power of a more nationalistic-oriented voting voting block. While far from unacceptable to them, Trump was definitely not the Zionist's man. So any hope for change, civilian or military, will rely upon educating the people about these matters. This will be an uphill battle but I think there are already some promising trends. A change in official military doctrine is not likely to be forthcoming but, say, on the heels of serious domestic crisis on the homefront and a greater skepticism towards Zionist claims might contribute to these sort of environment that I envision in my original post.

perhaps if trump orders action against an organised and powerful foe for slim reasons. the generals may not be so willing to oblige and send the young to certain doom when nothing is actually at stake. a fracture may begin that way. otherwise, it's a long shot.

Yeah, agreed; really, a long shot either way now or even probably this decade absent a crisis of severe proportions (worse than 9/11 or the last major economic crisis), but, as the complete shitshow that the world and our nation is continues to degenerate, I think it is quite possibly our last best hope. As things start to get bad I can envision there being some sort of unofficial communications or even a network of sorts going on between similarly minded people in the military and from there the beginnings of action. (St Michael the Archangel, ora pro nobis!)

Certainly one hopes there would be some sort of coup even in the most limited sense if the president attempted to engage North Korea or anywhere else with nuclear weapons or otherwise basically destroy the entire world. Heaven forefend

Also, haven't seen you around in a bit; it's a pleasute, how have you been?
 
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Yeah, agreed; really, a long shot either way now or even probably this decade absent a crisis of severe proportions (worse than 9/11 or the last major economic crisis), but, as the complete shitshow that the world and our nation is continues to degenerate, I think it is quite possibly our last best hope. As things start to get bad I can envision there being some sort of unofficial communications or even a network of sorts going on between similarly minded people in the military and from there the beginnings of action. (St Michael the Archangel, ora pro nobis!)

Certainly one hopes there would be some sort of coup even in the most limited sense if the president attempted to engage North Korea or anywhere else with nuclear weapons or otherwise basically destroy the entire world. Heaven forefend

he is incredibly thin skinned, it would be hard to provoke trump.

Also, haven't seen you around in a bit; it's a pleasute, how have you been?
minus 14 months and i was king of the world
today i am not doing so great

long story, but thanks for asking. :)
 
Sorry to hear that L2R, good to see you and everyone I still bloody recognize as well (Alasdair).

As to the topic, the notion of a military coup helping? I'm doubtful. The express control of a military dictatorship, even a benevolent one would go one of two ways, likely, in the US. One, the good, an establishment of a true democratic rather than oligarchic/capitalist leaning "republican system" or more likely, the Egyptification of America.
 
Nah that will never happen and if it did get America would be torn apart into many different states.

I'm a bit naive, still hopeful of our system. The fact that the FBI and CIA are investigating that orange racist fuck has my patriotism and hope ups. I know I will be let down but I will forever be a patriotic American if Trump gets impeached and the white supremacist traitors like Bannon, Alex Jones, etc end up behind bars where they belong.
 
If anything like this were to happen, which it never will, noone1 is right - the US would immediately balkanize into 3 or more different polities depending on how well these lower rank officers and soldiers can coordinate their coup. At least one of them would likely be ruled by a "provisional" military junta.

Now, on to the other stuff - a coup would be illegal and an illegitimate way to establish a new political paradigm. No matter who breaks them and whether or not they get away with it (DNC, RNC, Trump, etc) we are, and always will be, a nation of laws. If you change your political system through violence, there is every reason to fear that violence will later change that system in turn.

We change the political system through the ballot box. The Declaration does provide that we may change it by force, but I don't think it has come to that point, not nearly. Especially when so many of us are dulled by food, drink, the screen, and other distractions, it would be very difficult to get the public to back a revolution led by military coup.

I think the easiest way to fix all this is through the courts. If the SCOTUS would declare the election null and void on account of heavy interference (and possible infiltration) by a hostile foreign power and widespread voter tampering and fraud domestically, that would be a great start.
 
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Judging by the average intelligence of slack jaw yokels that are enlisted in the US military I'd warn that a military coup is the last thing you'd want.

If you want change how about encouraging more than 30% of your population to actually get off their fat arse and vote? It is one sure fire way the voice of the majority will be heard and it wouldn't destroy vast infrastructure or ruin the worlds economy.
 
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