"Controlled Relapse".. what do you guys think?

[Bojangles69]

Hmm well a lot of people seem to think I'm making "excuses" and thats cool, but like I said, I already went from clean time... to sub... back to clean time by choice just a few weeks ago. I didn't freak out or lose my mind about it, and still today it seems like it was a totally neccessary thing to do.
I was suicidal, was not sleeping for days on end, so I if I didn't "justify" that "excuse" then where would I be today? Dead?

I think people are confusing going back on sub to taking 32mgs of it, or are somehow associated it with their own habit when they went back to using, but shot 40 bags of dope instead of taking just enough to get through life. So if Im making "excuses" these excuses are to avoid problems more than they are to cause problems. I haven't took the sub yet, so wtf, I'm obviously being rational about it. I'm giving myself every opportunity I can to AVOID taking it, but like belfort said these problems existed long before opiates. As much as 12 years ago I first noticed I had serious anxiety problems.

For the MOST PART I can get through life with inderal, working out, and basically educating myself. But I am going through a super raw and exposed period right now. Inderal, working out, and reading all work when I've been clean for a while, not when I've just got off opiates. I'm really just looking for something that "works" enough so I don't have a panic attack day 1 of school. I'm also getting sick of being grouped into the same category of heroin junkies who relapse and shoot up till their arm falls off. I'm compulsive enough to develop an addiction, but by no means do my addictions get out of control like that. It generally takes years and years of me "maintaining" before shit starts happening.

Tommorow will be my day for desensitizing myself. I'm gonna go to school to work out which will be different. I feel confident going to the gym to work out, so I think if I have something normal to do AT SCHOOL, especially exercise, I can kill some anxiety before walking aimlessly around campus.
After I work out, I'm gonna take a bit of inderal and just walk. I have legit social anxiety to the point where its almost proportional to how close I am to people. At traffic lights I get panicky and my heart races, the closer I get to a group of people at school my heart races, and same thing with class. This is NOT my normal self. This is damage from speed abuse years ago. I prob could have killed most my anxiety problems had I never touched speed, but this is life, I'm going through paws, and remembering how fucked up my body is from amphetamines.

I'm going to do everything I can tommorow to feel comfortable at school. I'm sure it will go fine, and this is all really just anticipatory anxiety, which I'm very common with. Theres been times in the past where I've been 2 seconds away from a panic attack, and all a sudden my "mind works" and I feel relaxed. But my mind is a very random thing in regards to anxiety. In another couple of months I'll go back to "normal" somewhat, and I'll still have higher anxiety than avg, but I can usually deal with it using inderal and exercise.

And to Carl, when you said you were expecting me to say something else, you were really just projecting your past experiences with opiates into my own situation. Just because you go through that cycle doesn't mean other people do.
Last time I quit opiates I did exactly that, I turned my head and never looked back. I wasn't even thinking about opiates when I relapsed, opiates FOUND ME. I had literally found 4 bottles of morphine in a house of a deceased cancer patient. Someone asked me to throw them away and I put them in my pocket. But up untill that day I opiates were basically nonexistent in my thoughts.
The only reason I'm thinking about them now is because I don't have lexapro to skip right past the paws. But once I'm over the paws I can easily go w/out looking back. Untill of course someone shoves a bag of oxies in my face and I'm forced to look at them. But my point in saying that was I don't sit around and usually contemplate getting high. Today I don't even consider a "craving", the thought of using came to my mind as a legitimate solution to a temporary problem.
I take the sub, a couple weeks of school pass by and I adjust, then stop the sub and I'll be in a FAMILIAR environment off the sub. But going into an unfamiliar environment fresh off opiates is a different situation. So I was weighing the pros vs the cons, although everyone likes to project their own habits onto other people. I DO NOT want to fucking use. But I also don't wanna lose control of anxiety. I really comes down to which one I don't want most, not that I want to get high. Because even if I DO go back on sub it would be like .15mg or so.

Whatever the case, I'll fight it the best I can and hopefully I won't need that shit. I've been strong enough up untill now, lets see how long I can go.

and in response to PCHILD:

I've never taking atenolol, is that stronger than inderal?
I've had at least 3 situations leaving school due to panic attacks before I ever even touched opiates. Once was walking to class when I got into the hall, ran to the bathroom and locked myself in a stall cause I felt like I was having a seizure. I'm not sure a lot of people understand the difference between a panic attack, and just being a panicky person. Panic attacks are mostly a biological disorder. They're triggered by thoughts, but its specifically adrenaline that ALLOWS that actual attack to happen. Normal people can get panicky, but their adrenaline doesn't spike like people with panic disorder. Thats why it can often be annoying explaining it to people who don't know about it.
The other 2 times were even worse, and after my last panic attack I wound up trying to kill myself a week before finals. So anyone telling me its the PAWs or me trying to relapse please use your brain and listen to wtf I'm typing.

I appreciate the advice a lot pchild, and it good to see someone suffering with the same problems.

 

[dankstersauce]

i think this is really unrealistic.. you will look back and you will think about opiates again. your mind will constantly be trying to trick you into rationalizing using again, thats what it's doing right now.. so come on man, just hang in there. you dont need to use to get better. if you ever want this anxiety to go away you have to stay clean long enough for your brain to readjust itself to sober life.. 16 days is hardly enough time. i really think you should just keep going and not take anything.
good luck.

^^^QFT.

Not to mention, the more you keep replaying in your head "OMG i'm sooooo fucking anxious only taking ______ will make me feel 'ok' again" does not help at all. I remember a few years back i was strung out on benzos and all I could think about was "OMFG my anxiety is sooo bad...this is sooo bad...OMG I have it sooooooo bad". Replaying and emphasizing those thoughts/feelings does not help. It's like you almost want yourself to feel worse so that using is justified.

Try your best to accept anxiety as a part of life. Learn to remember that although it sucks (a lot) the anxiety won't kill you. Remember the last time you went through it, and you survived. Eventually you'll feel the anxiety but it won't be over powering, you can feel it without it overwhelming you. And over time it will get easier.

lol @ 'controlled relapse'. just cuz you plan it and justify it to yourself doesn't make it any different than a regular relapse. Every relapse I've ever had has been a 'controlled relapse'.
BTW I justified to myself that I needed suboxone for my anxiety 2 years ago. I told myself that it made me feel normal and that it would be ok cuz it would make me a better person.(lol I know) Fast forward to present day and now I can't stop using suboxone without horrible horrible withdrawal and I'm basically more addicted to suboxone than I ever was to other opiates.

I know you might feel like people are projecting their own story on you and that you're different than all of us but honestly dude, reading you post feels like reading one of my old posts from a couple years ago. And that is why I felt compelled to respond. I mean reading what you wrote is nearly identical to my thought process when I was in a very similar situation.

Do you really feel that next time when your anxiety is 10x worse that you're not going to reach for the opiates again? Especially after last time it worked sooooo well? Then what happens when someone dies or something awful happens? Maybe you are different than everyone else but some of us can't help but point out the similarities in our own stories.

 

[Bojangles69]

Anxiety CAN KILL just like stress can.

Just because its not directly linked to death doesn't mean its still not one of the largest factors in death. If you actually read statistics, stress and anxiety indirectly lead to more deaths a year than anything else on this planet, so I'm not sure where you got "anxiety won't kill you".
And I see you started using sub, and couldn't stop, but that was not my experience with it. I have used sub twice already and stopped within 3 weeks max both times. It was hard, but I STILL STOPPED. Just because you have a specific level of self control does not mean someone else is condemned to the same choices you make.
This thread is starting to sound too much like NA.

And what NA really says is "you are weak, you are a drug addict, you have to come to these meetings and listen to everything we say otherwise you will die".
I'm essentially hearing the same overhyped bs propaganda in this thread. I don't adhere to the same beliefs many of you people have about addiction. YES its a hard cycle to break, but I still realize decisions are 100% OUR OWN responsibility. If I start sub and don't stop, thats because I can't accept responsibility for what I do.

I obviously accepted it the last 2 times because I did stop. So please, I am not you. I'm glad I sound like you, and I know you're all just trying to help. But stop generalizing addiction the same exact way the media and hollywood does, its too easy to do, and doesn't really require using your brain like you think it does.

 

[cj]

^^
You are right Sub is alot different from heroin no doubt about that and honestly you seem to have way more self control then me and other "addicts'' I know. Do benzos not help your anxiety or is it an access issue? I agrre about anxiety and deppression being very real issues that need to be addressed. Do you think you may be experiencing PAWS or was ur anxiety always so out of control? If PAWS may be the issue taking opiates will only draw out the proccess thats why I suggested other drugs. Its hard to give solid personalized advice over the internet as well we dont know the whole story you know? Anyway hope you feel better peace.

 

[Pchild]

I've never taking atenolol, is that stronger than inderal?
I've had at least 3 situations leaving school due to panic attacks before I ever even touched opiates. Once was walking to class when I got into the hall, ran to the bathroom and locked myself in a stall cause I felt like I was having a seizure. I'm not sure a lot of people understand the difference between a panic attack, and just being a panicky person. Panic attacks are mostly a biological disorder. They're triggered by thoughts, but its specifically adrenaline that ALLOWS that actual attack to happen. Normal people can get panicky, but their adrenaline doesn't spike like people with panic disorder. Thats why it can often be annoying explaining it to people who don't know about it.
The other 2 times were even worse, and after my last panic attack I wound up trying to kill myself a week before finals. So anyone telling me its the PAWs or me trying to relapse please use your brain and listen to wtf I'm typing.

I appreciate the advice a lot pchild, and it good to see someone suffering with the same problems

Yeah I agree, a panic attack is one of the worst things I have ever experienced, period. When I ran out of that class, the prof. was right in the middle of lecture. I ran by him like a bat out of hell, haha. It was a small, senior class(about 30) and I literally ran right in front of him. And yeah, unless someone has had one, you can never describe just how damn bad they are.

As for Inderal vs. Atenolol, I don't know if I would say one is really better than the other for panic attacks. I would really say equal. Atenolol seems better for me for my BP, and I believe it don't depress respiration as bad as Inderal. But at your dose, that shouldn't be a problem either. I will say that I have upped my dosage at times when I felt my heart explode and thought I might be in store for one. Problem is you never know when they are going to hit and they come on so fast. Maybe talk with your doc. about increasing the dose to see if it may help. It would be worth a try IMO.

Hang in there, it will pass, eventually. Always has for me.
Care

 

[Zombartie]

OMG man I have exactly the same problem that you do. I have always been a shy kid but moving to America and trying to learn a new language, going to new school , basically completely trying to adapt to a new environment triggered horrible anxiety. It was simple anxiety around people at first : being socially awkward, not being able to control my heart rate, being jittery and that weird thing when your eyes (not pupils) get huge and you just stare at something (i dunno if anyone understands what I mean).
After trying to battle this horrendous anxiety without any help from anything i discovered opiates which made me feel like a normal, calm person I was before. They were a godsend however I could not afford buying them all the time and knowing how addictive they are I went to my doctor and explained the whole situation.She told me that she has never heard of anyone taking opiates to help with their anxiety. All they do is kill pain she said and thats when I learned that she is definitely not the best, understanding doctor. Opiates in fact do help with anxiety because they slow your heart rate down and overall make you feel comfortable. Even around her I felt uncomfortable, my blood pressure as she said was really high and my face was really red. All tale signs of underlying anxiety.
But what she did next really told me that she just didnt understand what I am going through. She prescribed me Effexor (an SNRI) when I was in no way depressed. after taking it for a week I could barely sleep and my anxiety got worse tenfold. I threw my prescription in the garbage and asked her if she could possibly prescribe me benzos to see if they help. and what does she do? She gives me Xanax but only 12 pills 0.25 mg each which is ridiculously stingy of her and did nothing to help with my anxiety.
Knowing that almost every doctor in America is pressured be the board to not prescribe too many benzos to patients I had no choice but to go back buying opiates ff the street illegaly. I hated my self for it but otherwise i couldnt live a normal life. I did not take any strong opiates. I only did enough of either codeine or hydrocodone to not get me high but to help the symptoms of my anxiety. I have had panic attacks when I could not get any opiates.
I truly feel for you man.

I also do not know what to do. I wanna quit doing opiates but without them I feel like i am dying. Also know that if I keep doing them I am hurting myself even more. I quit smoking and drinking any caffeine which helped very tiny bit. Stronger stimulants like amphetamines cnahelp with anxiety but in the long run they make it even worse. I am so miserable and the worse part is that I went through high school with a 4.0 but once my anxiety started in college my grades dropped significantly. All I do in class is think about what other people think about me and trying to control my heartrate. Its a fucking vicious circle. I m jittery and look weird which makes other people look at me weird and I get more anxiety. My mom is mad at me because of my grades in college but does not believe that anxiety can affect my grades.

I feel helpless and I resort to drinking a lil bit of alcohol which sometimes helps me get through the day. Seeing how the OP and I are in a similar situation I would also like to hear more suggestions from people on this forum. I have no ne else to talk to and any help is appreciated

 

[Bojangles69]

^^
You are right Sub is alot different from heroin no doubt about that and honestly you seem to have way more self control then me and other "addicts'' I know. Do benzos not help your anxiety or is it an access issue? I agrre about anxiety and deppression being very real issues that need to be addressed. Do you think you may be experiencing PAWS or was ur anxiety always so out of control? If PAWS may be the issue taking opiates will only draw out the proccess thats why I suggested other drugs. Its hard to give solid personalized advice over the internet as well we dont know the whole story you know? Anyway hope you feel better peace.

Thanks bro and I can also accept that I'm being a bit of an asshole although you didn't say anything about that. I don't wanna come off like I think I'm better than a single person here, but sometimes I think people forget that its just as easy to get sick of normal life w/out drugs as it is to get sick of addiction. And when I get sick of addiction, thats always been the point I stop. Sometimes I will go back once or twice so the process isn't so traumatic, but I still usually always wind up quitting sooner than later.

Benzos DO help a lot, if I had xanax right now I wouldn't be worrying about school, cause I know for a fact xanax and enough inderal are usally 100% effective at quelling panic attacks. Just that right now all I have is inderal and some clonidine. And if I do go back on benzos I'll wind up losing a lot of motivation like I do on opiates. So I'm trying to basically pick drugs that I can still live a productive life with. When I was on benzos before it was the same issue with too much apathy. But if I did have a couple I definitely wouldn't be freaking like I am now.

I get mad sometimes I think that theres just not always a real answer to all our problems. Its hard to help on the internet like you said, but sometimes even in real life its just as hard I find. I think its a life long struggle accepting the fact that someone else isn't always going to be able to help me with my problems. And the only real solution most of the time is to fend for myself untill I randomly find something that works. I came here looking for a solution which was my own real fault, but I did get a lot of good tips so this thread was still more helpful than less. As far as PAWs or my actual problem... it feels like its about 75% paws and 25% my natural tendency for panic attacks. Because I HAVE largely learned a lot of ways to stop them. If this was 3-4 years ago I'd prob be saying this was 25% paws and 75% my own biology. Because the issue has definitely improved over the years, it just always still surfaces at random times.. like right now. But this isn't really random either, I was expecting the anxiety to get bad, but when I feel myself hyperventilating in stores thats basically prepanic attack mode. It feels like a matter of time and the right trigger before it happens. But if I can make it long enough through PAWS w/out facing a strong enough trigger, I can possibly escape this and get back to normal life.. with just a little bit of a disorder.

My life today other people might say is fucked up, but life 8-9 years ago was a complete mess. So things DO seem to be getting better with time. And it could help if I become a little more accepting of the panic attacks themself, I've never really been ok with having them, as having them consistently enough over time can usually wind up making me suicidal. But I don't think it will get that bad this time. I guess I can only wait and find out. Thanks for the advice bro!

 

[Bojangles69]

OMG man I have exactly the same problem that you do. I have always been a shy kid but moving to America and trying to learn a new language, going to new school , basically completely trying to adapt to a new environment triggered horrible anxiety. It was simple anxiety around people at first : being socially awkward, not being able to control my heart rate, being jittery and that weird thing when your eyes (not pupils) get huge and you just stare at something (i dunno if anyone understands what I mean).
After trying to battle this horrendous anxiety without any help from anything i discovered opiates which made me feel like a normal, calm person I was before. They were a godsend however I could not afford buying them all the time and knowing how addictive they are I went to my doctor and explained the whole situation.She told me that she has never heard of anyone taking opiates to help with their anxiety. All they do is kill pain she said and thats when I learned that she is definitely not the best, understanding doctor. Opiates in fact do help with anxiety because they slow your heart rate down and overall make you feel comfortable. Even around her I felt uncomfortable, my blood pressure as she said was really high and my face was really red. All tale signs of underlying anxiety.
But what she did next really told me that she just didnt understand what I am going through. She prescribed me Effexor (an SNRI) when I was in no way depressed. after taking it for a week I could barely sleep and my anxiety got worse tenfold. I threw my prescription in the garbage and asked her if she could possibly prescribe me benzos to see if they help. and what does she do? She gives me Xanax but only 12 pills 0.25 mg each which is ridiculously stingy of her and did nothing to help with my anxiety.
Knowing that almost every doctor in America is pressured be the board to not prescribe too many benzos to patients I had no choice but to go back buying opiates ff the street illegaly. I hated my self for it but otherwise i couldnt live a normal life. I did not take any strong opiates. I only did enough of either codeine or hydrocodone to not get me high but to help the symptoms of my anxiety. I have had panic attacks when I could not get any opiates.
I truly feel for you man.

I also do not know what to do. I wanna quit doing opiates but without them I feel like i am dying. Also know that if I keep doing them I am hurting myself even more. I quit smoking and drinking any caffeine which helped very tiny bit. Stronger stimulants like amphetamines cnahelp with anxiety but in the long run they make it even worse. I am so miserable and the worse part is that I went through high school with a 4.0 but once my anxiety started in college my grades dropped significantly. All I do in class is think about what other people think about me and trying to control my heartrate. Its a fucking vicious circle. I m jittery and look weird which makes other people look at me weird and I get more anxiety. My mom is mad at me because of my grades in college but does not believe that anxiety can affect my grades.

I feel helpless and I resort to drinking a lil bit of alcohol which sometimes helps me get through the day. Seeing how the OP and I are in a similar situation I would also like to hear more suggestions from people on this forum. I have no ne else to talk to and any help is appreciated

SAME EXACT situation here. Except I always had that underlying anxiety. It was never really triggered it was more or less just aggravated overtime by traumatic events (speed use, prison, molestation at a younger age, etc).

I have found people who get a lot of the physical symptoms like you described are the same people who will HUGELY benefit from beta blockers. Your heart can NOT race, you can't sweat or get faint, you can't shake or twitch, and it makes it impossible to physically react to anxiety.
My real problem is my adrenaline is so naturally high, that now during PAWs its elevated to an extent where the inderal becomes less effective. I have been able to get by simply by taking more inderal though, so I'm going to try that tommorow when I go walking around school.
And YES doctors are FUCKING IDIOTS. I was prescribed Zoloft for panic disorder, **ZOLOFT** a fucking STIMULANT. I had no idea it was a stimulant till 2 days on it I had about 4 panic attacks that day. I did the same exact thing and threw them in the trash, but I still wound up going back to the same dr (it was our uni's psychiatrist so I had no choice really). He put me on lex and klonopin, which helped immensely, but I started having bad sides from the klonopin... and then a year later from the lex too. So I tapered myself off both at that time and got through the wds. The wds from the lex were actually worse then the 6mg klonopin I was on for 9 months, and I still can not explain why I don't remember having benzo wds.

But in as little as 1 month after stopping the lex, I was right back on opiates. And now I'm where I'm at today. Although theres a ton of backstory I left out as well.
I would say #1 for you to get a betablocker like atenolol or inderal. And #2 POSSIBLY an ssri that WORKS for panic attacks/anxiety, like Lexapro. Lexapro DID help me a ton, its just that after a couple years it wound up actually reversing my anxiety disorder, and I started to not give a fuck about anything. The lex for whatever reason worked too well. But maybe it won't work as good for you and you'll get lucky =] (as weird as that sounds I know). I can live on inderal for the rest of my life with exercise and control my panic attacks. Its just this PAWS time thats aggravating them. So I think I'm just gonna suck it up till I'm out of paws. I CAN go back to a dose of subs and stop, but I'm thinking I might actually rather face a panic attack then delaying paws. I'm not worried about addiction, I'm more worried about delaying paws right now. So I'm gonna suck it up and be a tough guy lol. I've been far too tough my whole life though, and sometimes forcing strength when you don't really have it can create more problems. But Im sure I'll be fine... well at least I'm having faith that I will.

 

[Gl1mmer1ngVoid]

I feel your pain.... the only thing worse than withdrawal from ANY opiate is having to work or attend classes while feeling terrible. Your need to move and inability to sit still is going to worsen 100x over when sitting through 6-7 hours or more of classes.

Its easy to say "just take an anxiety med" and give similar advice, but in my experience after withdrawing from suboxone after about 8 months of continual use nothing would calm the anxiety/pain/ache/discomfort except for suboxone. Believe me I tried just about everything...

The worst part is that I would eat a bunch of xanax, it would calm the anxiety somewhat, but it just made the other symptoms worse, and just seemed to make me tired but still as uncomfortable as ever maybe even more-so....

How exactly are you going about procuring the subs you plan on using for the "controlled relapse"? If you can only buy one then it might be beneficial to eat a quarter of one, or maybe even LESS (1/8th) and spread one single sub out as long as possible. If the only way to get subs is to go to your doc and get a bunch via prescription then I wouldn't go that route.

I know all too well how dangerous it is to relapse regardless of how much you plan on "controlling" the relapse, but when the choice is go cold turkey and suffer through your classes or rely on your self confidence and willpower it may be the better route. When I've tried the cold turkey route in the past sometimes I end up missing classes/work/etc and sometimes its better not to run your college grades into the ground (Im assuming your in college)

She told me that she has never heard of anyone taking opiates to help with their anxiety. All they do is kill pain she said and thats when I learned that she is definitely not the best, understanding doctor. Opiates in fact do help with anxiety because they slow your heart rate down and overall make you feel comfortable. Even around her I felt uncomfortable, my blood pressure as she said was really high and my face was really red. All tale signs of underlying anxiety.

Wow that sounds like a terrible doctor..... almost 99% of the stories I've heard from people explaining why they do synthetic opiates is because it puts them in a state of well-being, and makes everyday life, talking to people, social interaction, etc SOOO much easier. If you're close to any doctors who prescribe suboxone I suggest (in my limited capacity as an advisor) trying suboxone and maybe a low dose of xanax for the anxiety....

Suboxone truely does break the addiction cycle and coupled with the xanax this should return you to some form of normality.... but again I'd talk to a doctor, I'm just sharing my limited knowledge...

 

[Zombartie]

Yea man I brought some atenolol from Russia when I was visiting my family where you could buy it without prescription but it did not help much. I definitely felt that my heart wasn't freaking out but for me my anxiety is more mental than physical. I still could not function properly.

I think I need some serious long acting benzos such as klonopin. I have tried Ativan before and it helped immensely. I actually got some euphoria from it just because I felp so normal while on it. It gave me nostalgia from when I was little kid with no worries at all. But I know that benzos are not a long-term solution. I n fact they might make it worse if you take them for too long or run out. I don;t wanna substitute one addiction for another one.
What did help for a little but was taking Gabapentin but that drug stops working if you take it long enough. You should also give it a try. Or Lyrica which is a stronger, newer drug but just like Gabapentin. I ma add you as a friend and if you find anything else that helps you or just wamma talk message me man. I m g;ad that a I stumbled on this post because it seems like we have the same exact problems and I finnally have someone to share what i am going though

 

[Bojangles69]

I feel your pain.... the only thing worse than withdrawal from ANY opiate is having to work or attend classes while feeling terrible. Your need to move and inability to sit still is going to worsen 100x over when sitting through 6-7 hours or more of classes.

Its easy to say "just take an anxiety med" and give similar advice, but in my experience after withdrawing from suboxone after about 8 months of continual use nothing would calm the anxiety/pain/ache/discomfort except for suboxone. Believe me I tried just about everything...

The worst part is that I would eat a bunch of xanax, it would calm the anxiety somewhat, but it just made the other symptoms worse, and just seemed to make me tired but still as uncomfortable as ever maybe even more-so....

How exactly are you going about procuring the subs you plan on using for the "controlled relapse"? If you can only buy one then it might be beneficial to eat a quarter of one, or maybe even LESS (1/8th) and spread one single sub out as long as possible. If the only way to get subs is to go to your doc and get a bunch via prescription then I wouldn't go that route.

I know all too well how dangerous it is to relapse regardless of how much you plan on "controlling" the relapse, but when the choice is go cold turkey and suffer through your classes or rely on your self confidence and willpower it may be the better route. When I've tried the cold turkey route in the past sometimes I end up missing classes/work/etc and sometimes its better not to run your college grades into the ground (Im assuming your in college)

Great post!! Really you did help clear up some thoughts I was having a lot.

When I was wding from pods once a couple years back I took EVERYTHING, and you just reminded me that nothing really helped at all. I had taken xanax, lyrica, soma, and tramadol, and niether of them did shit to calm me down. I was unable to remember that untill you wrote you're own experience... see this is exactly why I post threads.

And OCEAN I'm responding AS people post, so if you merge people might only read the first post and not realize I responded to them at the end. Seperate posts just seems neater to me idk.

But back on topic. I honestly think you're right. I could almost take anything now and I'm confident it prob wouldn't do much. Just like the inderal isn't working like it does when I've been clean a while. And inderal is RIDICULOUSLY strong for killing adrenaline, so the fact that I still have a lot of it fired up in my body only proves that more.
As far as the sub I have 1 that I saved "for emergency" well really I just wound up not needing it didn't wanna throw it away lol. And after that theres no way I'd be able to get more as I refuse to pay for a sub dr and lost my sub connect months back. So after that 1 sub theres no more.

But just because of what you wrote, I'm realizing how much more important it is to just get through the paws. I almost feel trapped in a way now that you wrote that, like nothing else will help me but more sub, and that just aggravates me more towards the sub in the first place. I realized how bad opiates were just by enough wds from them, but its interesting how in a way you are right. I can take xanax, lyrica, tram, ANYTHING and still feel anxious. I came into this thread thinking some of those meds might help, and not as angry at opiates, but now you just did a great job pissing me off.

Fuck sub, you are right. Who cares wtf is going on, addiction/mental disorder, it doesn't matter. I really need to focus on conquering one goal at a time, thats my REAL ANSWER. I'm stopping half way through addiction and focusing on my mental problems, when I should be finishing this paws and worry about my other problems later.
That was just what I needed to read, and thank you.

 

[Pchild]

Bojangles,

Great, glad to here you have already tried higher Inderal dose and it helped. Yeah I have taken Xanax and Valium also. I like the Valium beter, it don't make me as sleepy. So why don't you have any benzos? Problem with doc. writing benzo scripts? If thats it, and I don't know, but I would suggest an older, male psychiatrist. At least for me, I never had problems getting benzos from him, for panic attacks. But you know this works, I would make arrangements to get some. Don't suffer when there is help.
Best

 

[Zombartie]

Bojangeles you ever tied methadone? I just procured some and 2o mg knocked me on my ass.
So i think a small 10-15 mg dose might cure the anxiety problem for people like me and you. And I think it is much more safe that benzos which are way too addictive and the WD from them are life threatening. That might be a bad advice tho because it is still a drug. I have never tried subs tho so I cannot compare the two.

Gl1mmer1ngVoid. How do subs and methadone compare? Which is better in your opinion? That is only if you tried both of course.
Yea I think I just need to switch the doctor but I have been putting it off because pff bad experiences with my last two doctors I just lost all trust in them. I think a psychiatrist might actually be a better option for me.Gl1mmer1ngVoid

 

[Carl Landrover]

And to Carl, when you said you were expecting me to say something else, you were really just projecting your past experiences with opiates into my own situation. Just because you go through that cycle doesn't mean other people do.

I guess it's just me...and all my friends. Guess it just must be us.



How long have you known yourself to be an addict? How many times have you been at the point you're at right now?

 

[Gl1mmer1ngVoid]

Gl1mmer1ngVoid. How do subs and methadone compare? Which is better in your opinion? That is only if you tried both of course.
Yea I think I just need to switch the doctor but I have been putting it off because pff bad experiences with my last two doctors I just lost all trust in them. I think a psychiatrist might actually be a better option for me.Gl1mmer1ngVoid

Well methadone can be abused, suboxone cannot (to the extent of methadone and regular opioids at least). You cannot take more and more suboxone to increase its effects like you could with methadone. They both have the potential to break your addiction and dependence on opiates in MY experience suboxone is safer....

As for the psychiatrist this may be a good idea, and it may help your anxiety issues, but it probably wont help your opiate addiction so you'll still have to either quit cold turkey or go the suboxone/methadone route. If you have the money to afford the psychiatrist AND the meds then by the more help you can get the better.

My suggestion would be to consult a doctor who offers suboxone/methadone treatment (If you plan on chosing one of these meds) and they'll be able to assist you with the anxiety issues as well. They can help with more than just the medication part, I'm sure they'd be able to point you in the direction of a psychiatrist. That is of course if you dont get another asshole doctor like the one you mentioned before.

 

[bagochina]

I have legit social anxiety to the point where its almost proportional to how close I am to people. At traffic lights I get panicky and my heart races, the closer I get to a group of people at school my heart races, and same thing with class. This is NOT my normal self.

I sometimes still get that way when I stop at a traffic light. I sometimes think ppl are staring at me and that shoots my anxiety up. Totally sucks. It is disappearing though as the months pass. Same with being around people, at NA meetings or whatever I still get shaky, panicky, and sweaty. Fun combo let me tell ya. One of the reasons I go to meetings is to force myself to feel uncomfortable so I can get over it.

I really wonder what came first for me anxiety or drugs. Back in my doctor days I think I might have convinced myself I had anxiety just to receive meds. Than I started to develop all these symptoms that I told the doc I had. Its definitely a blurry line but in any regard after years of using tranquilizers to deal with feeling uncomfortable, shaky, etc. or whatever I used beer, opiates, etc. the fact is that I do have anxiety issues.

I mainly chalk that up to obviously medicating, self-medicating, abusing drugs, and now the lack of drugs. It was just such an ingrained behavior for me mainly in my head. If you saw me you would probably say what the hell are you anxious about you have nothing to worry about but I guess you could say that is just a habit [anxiety] that I developed. I really wish I would have never turned to scripts to help me because they have definitely hurt me in the long haul, whatever nothing I can do about that now.

Schools makes me anxious like a motherfucker to. Just the other day I was having a hard time finding a parking spot and I almost decided fuck this I payed $___ for a parking permit and I cant even find a spot. Now I am going to be late and it will be weird walking in late so I am just going home. I didn't though.

Like you already know your anxiety is sky high after coming off a pod/bupe/whatever habit and it is completely normal and it is something that I just have to deal with. It has gotten SOOO much better and things will get better if you give it the time. Anyways I rambled on way to long.

Have a great day tomorrow, I should probably tell myself the same thing also.

peace.
seedless

 

[Bojangles69]

I guess it's just me...and all my friends. Guess it just must be us.



How long have you known yourself to be an addict? How many times have you been at the point you're at right now?

No its me too I was just getting mad with how many generalizations were being thrown out and I guess I more or less refuted everything.

But when I say "its me too" I just mean that I am a drug addict. However I'm a person with an anxiety disorder first, and it often changes the way I go about drugs. I notice a lot of people talking about cravings, and I understand them 100%, but I do NOT get them. I share a lot of the other typical traits of an addict, but for w/e reason when I stop a drug I just don't obsess about using it.
And the reason why I think is because when I DO stop, I have become so utterly sick of the addiction to the point where I am just able to block it out once I'm off. But it doesn't even feel like I'm blocking it out, it feels more like a gf who cheated on me, and I'm just finished with her. I never think about it again. I think its because when things happen to me, for whatever reason it feels more traumatic than it actually is, and I repress the whole event. Almost like when a child gets molested and represses it for years.. never thinking about it again. When I was 10 years old I think I developed that exact coping mechanism. I was brutally molested, and never thought about it again till I was 17. And I only came into my mind the first time I ever got drunk, at which point my whole family found out I was molested.

For whatever reason that same coping mechanism now exists with women, drugs, almost anything in life. But when something wrongs me (like opiates) I cut it off untill I'm literally forced to confront it. I AM a drug addict, and I'm prob just like your friends, except that I have an almost disturbing ability to lock my mind out of specific memories.
I fucking hate opiates right now, and today I had the thought that if I started having panic attacks, I could somewhat become suicidal (I can't block out panic attacks cause I need to always be prepared for them tommorow) and I was looking at sub as a tool to avoid this anxiety from spiraling out of control. The thing is I'm sick of opiates, but its actually more the pods. I don't have a direct negative association to subs. Even though I had some bad sides one time, they didn't ruin my life like pods did. And its hard for me to not crave all opiates I guess, just that now, I have 0 temptation or cravings to use pods. And it will stay like that untill one day someone prob throws another opiate in my face, and who knows how I'll react.
Its complicated to explain, but I can honestly say something snapped on May 14th, and ever since I just haven't had a genuine craving to use pods anymore. I realized I still had to to avoid wds, so I did the taper. But I never feel a compulsive drive to use them now at all, I genuinely am sick and fucking tired of them. I hate them SO MUCH inside it bothers me to think about them even for a second, and I think for that reason I don't get cravings for them. But if I said that a year or 2 from now I'm not gonna get tempted to use something else, that would most likely be bullshit.

If that makes any sense.

 

[Bojangles69]

I sometimes still get that way when I stop at a traffic light. I sometimes think ppl are staring at me and that shoots my anxiety up. Totally sucks. It is disappearing though as the months pass. Same with being around people, at NA meetings or whatever I still get shaky, panicky, and sweaty. Fun combo let me tell ya. One of the reasons I go to meetings is to force myself to feel uncomfortable so I can get over it.

I really wonder what came first for me anxiety or drugs. Back in my doctor days I think I might have convinced myself I had anxiety just to receive meds. Than I started to develop all these symptoms that I told the doc I had. Its definitely a blurry line but in any regard after years of using tranquilizers to deal with feeling uncomfortable, shaky, etc. or whatever I used beer, opiates, etc. the fact is that I do have anxiety issues.

I mainly chalk that up to obviously medicating, self-medicating, abusing drugs, and now the lack of drugs. It was just such an ingrained behavior for me mainly in my head. If you saw me you would probably say what the hell are you anxious about you have nothing to worry about but I guess you could say that is just a habit [anxiety] that I developed. I really wish I would have never turned to scripts to help me because they have definitely hurt me in the long haul, whatever nothing I can do about that now.

Schools makes me anxious like a motherfucker to. Just the other day I was having a hard time finding a parking spot and I almost decided fuck this I payed $___ for a parking permit and I cant even find a spot. Now I am going to be late and it will be weird walking in late so I am just going home. I didn't though.

Like you already know your anxiety is sky high after coming off a pod/bupe/whatever habit and it is completely normal and it is something that I just have to deal with. It has gotten SOOO much better and things will get better if you give it the time. Anyways I rambled on way to long.

Have a great day tomorrow, I should probably tell myself the same thing also.

peace.
seedless

Thank you SO MUCH for writing that all out. It makes me smile like nothing else to see people mirror the same exact problems I have.
The traffic light thing for w/e reason never goes away, I'm not sure why but like clock work whether I'm lookin at the cars around me or not my heart starts to race. And I think why I can never stop it is the anticipation factor. When I'm about 100-200feet away from the light is when I REALLY first start getting nervous, and it always builds and builds till I come to a stop, when it peaks at its worse.
Its not a panic attack at that point, for w/e reason I've never actually had a panic attack at a traffic light, and I think its because its hard to actually see the peoples faces around me. Its really other people eyes that trigger them. The first thing I always look for in strangers around me is their eyes, and if they're even remotely focused in my direction my body becomes flooded with adrenaline. If I see they're not looking at me, I don't get that adrenaline surge. Its very specific, and although it sounds like a simple insecurity, it has a heavy biological rooting that for w/e reason allows panic attacks to manifest. It sucks to say, that peoples eyes make me feel like I'm about to die (when the panic attack happens). Thats my disorder in a nutshell. Its not rational, it doesn't make sense, but it never fails, and its never gone away. I think speed has a lot to do with it, as it almost seems like a permanent and specific form of paranoia. But who knows?

I am SO GLAD though that you wrote all that shit about school. Parking is usually the first trigger for me. I start driving around and realize at that point in order to ever get a spot I need to leave 24 hours early lol. I find one, and I'm already conditioned into an angry mood. I get out of my car and the first thing I do is scan my peripheral vision for ANYTHING that resembles the shape of a person (it happens really quick its weird). If I sense a person in my vision I instantly lock eyes on them, to see what they're focused on. If they look at me I usually stare at them back to try and divert their attention from myself. But this isn't when I really get anxious. Its if I walk in front of them, and their behind me, I can almost feel their eyes on my back, and I get highly aroused (in an aggressive way) I don't think I'm about to get attacked, by I 100% FEEL like I am.
If I hear their walking speed up, that furthers the development of the panic attack, but it usually takes a succession of multiple triggers before they happen. It almost would sound like I'm scared to be around people, but I'm not. I like being around people, I just DO NOT KNOW why my body doesn't like it. Its so biological to the core it feels sometimes, that it seems like my mind almost never has anything to do with it. Whether I think happy, whether I think sad, nothing changes how my body starts to react. I think its almost an evolutionary twitch that has been aggravated by speed use. I think most people naturally have a biological fear of strangers, but for w/e reason my body is locked on that fear 100% of the time. Its the single most craziest thing I've had to go through in my entire life. I've been through prison, drug addiction, sexual abuse, therapy, rehab, psychward, but this single problem has really been whats always consistently ruined my life.

 

[Gl1mmer1ngVoid]

Bo it seems that your anxiety stems all the way back to what happened in your childhood.... The issues you have with people looking at you and feeling exposed probably has something to do with feeling that your secret is also exposed, even though they know little or most likely nothing about you.... I've experienced anxiety in the past similar to this just because of little things like knowing people in my town are aware that I do drugs, and thinking that everyone who looks at me or comes near me will be looking at me with disgust, aware of my full history of drug usage when in fact they don't know anything about me nor do they care.

I've since learned that none of these people, their opinions, what they may say, etc, are not important AT ALL, but what IS important is your mental health and well being so fuck em all.... also things like looking for a parking spot and all the daily inconveniences are insignificant and we cannot let them contribute to the anxiety... we have to realize that worst case scenario we don't find a spot in time, we might have to go into class late or even miss a class.... even if this would cause us to miss a final exam and fail the entire class it might have a TINY TINY affect on your overall GPA but still, it is very insignificant in most cases. You could lose your job, fail all your classes, get yourself into debt, but as long as you have your health you can still be happy, and there's no way all of these things can happen and yet we think about these negative things over and over. Sometimes if were having trouble finding a parking spot we think the worst "Oh no I'm going to be late, possibly miss the class, miss some assignment, and everyone will find out about it.... My family will be so disappointed that i'm doing terribly in school" and on and on and on, thinking about these negative things over and over..... but in reality missing a class will have almost ZERO affect on your actual life...

Anxiety is a snowball effect.... when people like you and I have had traumatic events in our childhood it grows and grows until present day were worrying about whether or not people sitting in the car beside us at a traffic light can see right through us, absorbing all our secrets and finding out about everything we've ever done. In reality they're sitting in their car, looking straight ahead at the light, probably thinking about getting home so they can make a sandwich or take a shit or something lol.... I guess to put a point on it, everyday life and occurrences are not near as complex as we make them out to be while looping over everything negatively in our minds... everything is a lot more simple and basic...

I know it doesn't help at all to say "we cant let these little things weigh on our minds and affect us" but that's what it boils down to, and depending on how deep our anxiety and depression is seated from when it began it may take longer for some to arrive at this realization. You should try to talk with a psychiatrist if possible (if you haven't already tried), it helps so much to speak with someone about what happened in your past and face it straight on, trust me I've been there....

Also one more thing, an long sustained period of drug use will always have your body in a state of chemical imbalance. If a magical wave could pass through your body, removing all chemicals and removing the damage you've done to your body thus far throughout your history of drug usage, you would find that a lot of the depression and anxiety will be gone as well.... You may still have some small social anxiety issues but it would be much easier to cope....

I really hope this helps, sorry if you read all of that and it didn't help any, but it is exactly how I overcame my anxiety issues for the most part.... It's about 6 years of anxiety and depression boiled down into a few paragraphs

 

[.Lucid.]

reading this thread is like reading.. something thats very long