Condom removed without me knowing, rape?

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

Hey guys, I'm not sure what to do. I'm conflicted. Something happened a few days ago that's never happened before to me. I don't know how to work through my emotions.

This guy I've been friends with I had sex with for the first time a few days ago. He's in love with me, but I've told him I'm still going through a rough breakup and i don't want a relationship for a long long while. I know he cares very deeply for me and just wants to take care of me.

This Friday I spent the night at his house. We'd done oral before but thats it. I kind of figured that night might be the night it would happen. We've spoken about before previously that I don't want a kid right now, and I said if he and I had sex, I 'had bought condoms.' he said 'i hate wearing condoms' I said again laughing,' Well I bought condoms,' he laughed and said 'i still hate condoms.' we went back and forth until I said 'this conversation is just gonna keep going around and around.' he laughed and said,' for me, he'd wear condoms cause he loves me so much.' that's where it stopped and I was happy he said that.

I bought several condoms and different brands with me on Friday, cause I didn't want to run out or have him say he didn't like the kind I bought. One thing led to another, and we had sex on the couch. Before it happened, I asked if he'd wear a condom, he said yeah, he couldn't put it on (he's an alcoholic, he wasn't drunk but he wasn't sober enough to waste time figuring out it was inverted, so he handed it to me to put it on him. We had sex protected.

After it was over (he didn't come) we snuggled in bed. We did oral, we went to sleep, kissing blah blah. He woke me up in the night and touched me, he went down on me. He came up and rubbed his penis on me, I asked for a condom again, he got up in the dark to get one. He put it on but I checked to make sure it was on before we had sex. I came, he kept going on me. He stopped abruptly and said 'I'll be back' and he left for less than 30 seconds into the other room. I figured he went to go check on his baby daughter in the other room or got water or something, and he came back in, was fast. Kissed me, went down on me again. He came back up after a few minutes and penetrated me again. I was caught up in the moment, but I really thought he still had the condom on.

I honestly thought he was still wearing the condom, he left for such a short amount of time. He had sex with me for less than a minute. He stopped suddenly and said he'd taken the condom off already and forgot he did. I said 'what.'

and he said he'd taken it off when he got up cause he'd already come in it while we were having sex and he didn't want to re-use a used condom. He asked if we should stop, I said yes. He got off me and laid back down and apologized for it. I was a little stunned he hadn't been wearing the condom. I didn't know what to think. I asked him 'you already came?' and he said yeah, that's why he got up. For the life of me, unless he came as quiet as a mouse, I didn't notice any big finish, just him stopping to get up. He didn't come inside me.

We had slept for only a couple hours before he had sex without the condom. I don't know if he drank more in the night or something. I honestly do think he just forgot in the moment he'd take it off a while ago or he's use to having unprotected sex with pulling out.

We slept again, got up in the morning, he made me breakfast and we watched frozen with his daughter. We snuggled on the couch and he apologized again that he took the condom off, it was the first time it had been brought back up again. I told him 'its ok, just don't ever do that again. He apologized and said he doesn't have any STDs but he knows I don't want a kid. I'm actually on birth control as well and he didn't come in me, so I'm not worried about a child.
Before he left for work, we had sex again. This time I got up without asking and got a condom and put it on him. We had sex, and we both I'm surprised came at the same time. This time, he had a normal orgasm of being loud and collasping like guys do after they come. He didn't do anything like that before when he said he'd come. I actually don't think he came in the condom like he said he did in the night.

I don't know what to think. Half of me thinks he honestly did forget cause the chronic drinking makes him have terrible short term memory, and I know he respected my wishes up until.that point. The other half of me feels violated. I feel like if he did something sneaky like that he doesn't respect my wishes and I can't trust a thing he says. He says he doesn't have an STD but I feel like I should get tested now, even if he didn't come in me.

Any opinions? Have you ever forgotten a condom under the influence, or is he a big dickhead I should stop talking to? Did he technically rape me? I didn't consent to no condom.

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

*my gut said to me, not my guy.*

 

[psy997]

It's definitely not rape, but possibly disrespect and breaking of boundaries. This is a very vague situation what with all the variables, drinking, not knowing each other so well, etc. so I don't think anyone can really give you what you're looking for. If you feel you don't have enough information to make a decision then you need to confront him.

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

I've been reading up online about it. Some people say ANY sex or touching that you don't consent to is considered non consensual sex, ergo rape.
I don't feel raped, but the more I think about it the more upset it get, and the more I feel violated. Im going to confront him, no doubt.

I guess I'm just trying to find someone else who's been through the same thing to describe their feelings about it.
I'm not going to bring him to court about it, but I don't feel right about what happened. I do think it was sneaky and he's not being honest to me.

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

Also, he was the only one drinking, I was stone cold sober. I wanted a clear head about myself that night, so I passed on the weed and vodka that his friend brought over, throughout the night. I only had cigarettes.

 

[KneelB4Doom]

Not rape. If you would have noticed he wasn't wearing a condom and said "stop" and he didnt stop then that would be rape. You should be more careful with who you choose to let inside you.

 

[Vastness]

Having read your description of what happened, I really don't think this is a sexual assault. It sounds to me like he genuinely did make a careless drunken mistake, recognised the effect it had on you and was genuinely remorseful about it afterwards. His behaviour after the fact is not that of a dishonest person.

That said, in some circumstances this would constitute some form of sexual assault - basically depending on whether or not he intentionally deceived you (apparently this is a thing that some guys do, secretly removing the condom during sex and then pretending it was an accident). However I really don't think this is what happened here.

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

"Not rape. If you would have noticed he wasn't wearing a condom and said "stop" and he didnt stop then that would be rape. You should be more careful with who you choose to let inside you."

I know you're trying to help, but I don't appreciate your tone. The last sentence to me sounds like you're blaming my desicion to have protected sex and sex with him in general. You don't know me.

I've known him for close to a year, we work together and talk nearly everyday, it wasn't like a drunken tumble after meeting at a bar.
Honestly the most 'careful' way to 'let something inside of me' would just be a dildo, at least it doesn't have a brain.
As if I, or anybody in general, could predict what any person's real intentions are before sex. It doesn't matter if it was a one night stand or sex with your husband of 30 years. Assault is assault if that's what the law says.

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

@Vastness, I think you're right, but I didn't want to let my emotional brain (I do love him alot, I'm just not in love with him, I don't want to believe he's a bad person, I'm making excuses for him, I don't want him to lose this daughter over this, ect.) cloud my rational brain ( my rational brain tells me we discussed protection, he knew I wanted it, I asked for a condom twice the two times we've ever had sex, he took it off out of the room where I didn't see it, has sex with me, then tells me later he was too lazy to get a fresh one; tells me that's very wrong for him to do). That's why I wanted to ask for advice from others.

I dont think I was raped, but I've read up on this situation and a number of people and lawyers said he took advantage of my understanding and deceived me. I'm conflicted. I feel like I lost my trust in him, and he's been the biggest emotional support for me (and I for him) as we both go through a tough point in our lives. My previous relationship actually ended over this guy, and I'm upset to think the first time we have sex, it has to be confusing and make me lose my trust in him.

 

[KneelB4Doom]

Hmmm..

You weren't intoxicated.. its your vagina.. if you're very concerned about your partner wearing a condom you should verify it is on before you *ALLOW* the man put his penis inside you. It's not hard to look at his dick and or touch it and make sure there is in fact a condom on it before penetration is intiated.

You were careless with your body. Simple as that.

That's like asking someone for Acid and they give you a research chemical. You take the drug without testing it. Shitty thing for a drug dealer to do? Absolutely! But at the end of the day it's your fault for not verifying the drug you chose to ingest.

 

[psy997]

Lose the attitude, KneelB4Doom. Show some empathy.


Ragnarok, it sounds like you feel taken advantage of, used, and betrayed. You seem to be hinging your acceptance of such feelings on whether the law condemns his actions as sexual assault or not, however. Ask yourself, were you taken advantage of? If not, then do the work necessary to heal from your misunderstandings and perceptions of the event. If you were - which it sounds like you were - then acknowledge to yourself that your boundaries were broken by someone you trusted, allow yourself to feel that, figure out where you are, and then once you're centered, confront him with your feelings. If it was truly a drunken mistake, it will come out, if it wasn't, it will as well. The law has no place in this, you are your own authority. Accept and take your power and do what you feel is right for the situation.

If anything is going to be done about this it is between you and this man. Bringing the law into it is absolving yourself of responsibility and the presence and space needed to deal with this issue yourself.

 

[spacejunk]

if someone removes a condom without telling you, imo that is sexual assault.


i would consider seeking legal advice on the matter. lots of places have been writing up legislation making this illegal, since it has become a "thing" amongst online communities of misogynists.

i honestly think you can't trust this guy, and need to consider whether or not you want to take this further.

i don't know where you live, but think it is worthwhile searching online to see if it is explicitly illegal in your area.

sorry to hear that this happened to you

 

[Vastness]

I don't want to seem like I'm minimising anyone's experience of feeling violated, BUT, this sentence makes me think that it was not intentional:

He had sex with me for less than a minute. He stopped suddenly and said he'd taken the condom off already and forgot he did.

Why would he do this if he had done it on purpose? Yes, maybe he did intentionally do it and then immediately felt bad about it, but you know the guy and know his character better than any of us, you know he is also an alcoholic with short term memory problems, by your own description - I would urge you not to write off everything else you thought you knew about this guy based on less than a minute of something that does have a plausible and far more innocent explanation.

Also, OP, I really wouldn't read too much into whether he came or not at the time you think he did, I think it is perfectly believable also that he came unexpectedly, and quietly. Maybe he had tried and failed to suppress it, and then suddenly left the room out of slight embarassment or something. Most men are capable of quiet ejaculation, especially if they're making a conscious effort to suppress it, so I would really just take what he said about this at face value and not let this factor into your suspicion of the situation.

I also fail to see really what benefit seeking legal advice or reading about the legality of the situation is going to have unless you actually intend to try to prosecute him. Law is useful only when it can be used as a tool to protect others from harm, and by all means, if you think this guy is a danger to other women or to society as a whole, or it will make you feel safer for him to see the inside of a prison cell (as unlikely as that particular outcome may be) then by all means, please go ahead and seek legal advice.

On the other hand, law itself and the legality of things is not an objective measure of whether something is morally wrong, as hopefully all of us on this forum know given the legal status of psychoactive drugs in the world, and this is true with sexuality as well - we only need to look at how much of the world in which homosexuality is still punishable by death to see that this is the case.

You seem to be unsure if you're "allowed" to feel violated by what happened. Well, of course you are allowed! If you feel like you can talk to this guy about it, then this would be the best thing to do, and will give you a far better gauge of whether it was intentional or not than anyone on the internet, who has never met either of you, can give. It doesn't need to be a "confrontation" either, in fact thinking of it as such might set some negative expectations for the outcome of the conversation in your own head - just voice your feelings rationally and honestly and see how he responds. The next best thing at the moment would probably be to talk to a trusted friend if you have one you feel you can talk to about this - or if not, a counsellor of some kind - again, they will be able to give you a far more accurate assessment of things than anyone on an internet forum can. Online, people will (quite rightly so, and understandably) have a knee-jerk reaction to any hint that sexual assault might have occured, and when I started reading your post I was fully expecting to have the same reaction - especially after the initial back-and-forth complaining about using a condom - but on consideration I just don't see it. However you are still allowed to feel violated by it if this is how you feel, and you should take steps to address these feelings.

BUT reading legal definitions of rape and seeking legal advice is not going to be helpful or even, I think, relevant unless you actually want to see this guy punished for what he's done and are considering prosecution. In many circumstances it is possible for 2 people in a loving relationship to engage in legally non-consensual sex where in actual fact, both partners considered the sex to be wholly consensual. Obviously you do not, at this point, feel that the sex was entirely consensual, which is fair enough, but I just present this as another example of why the legality of the situation should not necessarily be relevant to your feelings about it.

 

[spacejunk]

knowing the law helps you know where you stand.
if she's concerned enough to start this thread, she's presumably concerned enough to consider reporting it.
we should never discourage victims of sexual assault not to report it - sexual abuse is thoroughly under-reported as it is.

how could a guy not realise he wasn't wearing a condom? it's not the kind of thing you don't notice.
perhaps he got feelings of remorse, after deciding to do this?

who knows? but either way, i would suggest seeking some kind of advice - or seeking further information on the matter - because he needs to realise this is not ok, and it's very common to be confused about things like this.

even really clear-cut cases of rape and other sexual assault leave the victims feeling confused.

I've been reading up online about it. Some people say ANY sex or touching that you don't consent to is considered non consensual sex, ergo rape.
I don't feel raped, but the more I think about it the more upset it get, and the more I feel violated. Im going to confront him, no doubt.

I guess I'm just trying to find someone else who's been through the same thing to describe their feelings about it.
I'm not going to bring him to court about it, but I don't feel right about what happened. I do think it was sneaky and he's not being honest to me.

i would say that what you're experiencing is pretty common, and that is why it is sexual assault
"Some people say ANY sex or touching that you don't consent to is considered non consensual sex, ergo rape." - i would tend to agree.

"the more I think about it the more upset it get, and the more I feel violated. Im going to confront him, no doubt." - this is not unusual for people in your position to experience, and i think it is important that he knows this is not acceptable behaviour.
unsafe sex can have pretty serious consequences, and engaging in it non-consensually is not alright.

i hope you're ok

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

That's like asking someone for Acid and they give you a research chemical. You take the drug without testing it. Shitty thing for a drug dealer to do? Absolutely! But at the end of the day it's your fault for not verifying the drug you chose to ingest."

Hah, don't even start that bs with me. Look up False Equivalence Fallacy, that's exactly what your using. Are a cherry and a beet both vegetables just cause they're both red? No.

You're blaming the victim, which excuses the actions of the perpetrator (I'll call him R). I'm just waiting for you to ask next what kind of clothes I was wearing.

I shouldn't have to inspect the condom in depth to verify I'm having safe sex. What if R poked a hole in the condom before R put it on and I didn't notice? Would you tell me I should have gotten a magnifying glass out to inspect it? Hindsight is 20/20. I didn't even know this kind of thing was even an occurrence.
It was awkward enough for me as it is to feel like I was checking for the condom anyway. I didn't want to make it seem like I was distrustful of him when I had no reason to be. It's not exactly sexy to interrupt sex to check.

I've only ever had sex with one other man in my life, my ex of 6 years. Condoms were never an issue with him. I've never had to be awkward and be pushy about condoms before. I trusted this new guy to respect my wishes, I was aware R had it on before he left. Call me inexperienced and naive, sure. But I did everything I could think of to prepare for protection, and the very second man I ever have sex with pulls this? F*** no, it's not my fault.

However, and this is for my specific case, I'm not going to seek legal action. I have no evidence, I have 'he said/she said.' the only thing it's going to do is most likely cause him to lose his daughter, and that's virtually the only thing keeping him going (that, and me he tells me, but I don't believe anything he tells me anymore) and put him and me through emotional turmoil.

I posted this experience online cause I respect the opinions of others here, and I've never been disappointed by the heartfelt and caring responses from complete strangers, however I do know you're all complete strangers.

I called my male best friend (Brandon) after posting this, for his opinion and experience with removing condoms as a guy. Brandon said he didn't want to hurt my feelings, but Brandon believes R wasn't drunk enough to have 'forgotten' a condom. R probably took it off on purpose and as he had sex with me, felt bad over what he was doing and stopped before I found out afterwards and made the situation worse. Brandon said R probably thought I would get over it if R made it out like he simply forgot it took it off. I asked Brandon why would a guy do that, and Brandon said it's hard to come with condoms and feels so much better without, maybe R wanted to feel what is was like without or wanted to establish power like that. I asked Brandon if he's ever forgotten a condom from drinking, and he said even when he's shit faced and doesn't remember half the night from drinking, he always remembers the condom, that's not something that slips your mind. Plus R wasn't drunk, he had a few nips over several hours to feel normal, so that's not an excuse. Plus, since I was sleeping over, I didn't want to wake up next to a shaky, sweating mess from withdrawls, so I was fine with him drinking to maintain normal. I now think R took it off intentionally and felt bad he was deceiving me so he lied to me to make it better. Brandon then said he was going to go kick R's face in for what he did, but that's beside the point.

I had nightmares last night from this now.
I'm very sad to think I may lose my friendship with R over this. R's always been there for me whenever I get overwhelmed with my breakup, I have panic attacks now from anxeity and depression, and R's always been there whenever I call him to talk me down from it, even if he was at work. I feel like he just showed his true colors, and that kills me.

Thank you all for your responses, I hope this thread can help someone else for what they're going through

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

Testing a drug to find out the intentions of it is not the same thing as having sex with another living breathing human. A drug doesn't have any intention to deceive me cause it, I don't know, doesn't have a brain? I don't hurt acid's feelings by testing it out and checking the quality of the intensity, for starters. If you reply again blaming me KneelB4Doom, you're a troll and your further reposes are deleted.

 

[mrsnowygrainius]

i agree with the other poster, you should be way more careful with unprotected sex if you are not prepared to deal with the consequences. I understand we all get really really horny and caught up in the moment, but how are you going to claim "rape" when you had consensual sex with this guy all night?

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

@Vastness:
"Also, OP, I really wouldn't read too much into whether he came or not at the time you think he did, I think it is perfectly believable also that he came unexpectedly, and quietly. Maybe he had tried and failed to suppress it, and then suddenly left the room out of slight embarassment or something. Most men are capable of quiet ejaculation, especially if they're making a conscious effort to suppress it, so I would really just take what he said about this at face value and not let this factor into your suspicion of the situation."

It might be. My ex was always loud, so I don't know R's personal way. I know R was as nervous as I was, he's told me no other girl makes him as nervous as I do, but how can I believe that. But that makes me even more anxious cause I don't know if he left the room and wiped his penis off or if he still have semen on it when he pushed back into me. It almost makes it worse if he came than if he didn't.

The next time I talk to him about our night, I'll ask him how many times he came, I know it was only 1 time, but if he says 1or 2 he can't remember that'll be my opening to ask about the first time.
I won't make it accusatory and illegal what he did. Maybe it's a misunderstanding. I hope so.

 

[Ragnarok-isinsight]

I have never posted once that he raped me, look at the ending of my very first post, I asked a question on IF it was rape, not that I was claiming I was 100% raped.

I was being careful. I asked for condoms every time. He was deceitful. Again, like I said before, the only way to be 100% of not dealing with consequences of having sex is to NOT have intercourse/sex at all.

And no, it doesn't matter if we had sex 10 times that night, if I didn't want to the 10th time and he pushed himself on me, No means No, end of story. That is rape. I'm not saying I was raped, but your example if flawed.

In fact, some times are passing laws saying ONLY yes means yes. Saying no doesn't count anymore as refusing sex, now both parties have to say Yes in order for it to be consensual.

 

[spacejunk]

i agree with the other poster, you should be way more careful with unprotected sex if you are not prepared to deal with the consequences. I understand we all get really really horny and caught up in the moment, but how are you going to claim "rape" when you had consensual sex with this guy all night?

that's completely beside the point - and it's victim blaming.
wearing a condom is a guy's responsibility, and sorry - but guys who pull this kind of stuff are incredibly shifty.

i'd forgotten the term used to describe this act, but just looked it up - "stealthing".

it's a really fucked up thing to do, and nobody should have to put up with this shit.
it is, by definition, sexual assault.
please don't tell this girl it is her fault. it's simply not true.

both parties have to say Yes in order for it to be consensual.

indeed, and unprotected sex is something you have to be aware of, to give consent to.

if you consent to protected sex, but are tricked into sex without a condom, that's a form of sexual assault.

STEALTHING: INSIDE THE WORLD OF MEN WHO REMOVE CONDOMS DURING SEX WITHOUT CONSENT

Removing a condom during sex - known as stealthing - transforms a consensual act into a non-consensual one.

It's a little-discussed form of gender violence, but that is all changing thanks to a new study into the phenomenon, published last week.

When a man removes a condom during sex - often unbeknownst to his partner, be they man or woman - he is opening them up to the risk of pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.

But mostly, he’s committing an act he was not permitted to do, which many people are claiming is “rape-adjacent.”

For most men, the reason they remove condoms - often when changing positions so their partner doesn’t notice - is because they prefer the feel of sex without wearing one. But some also do so to exert power over their partners.

Apart from unwanted pregnancies and STIs, “survivors experienced nonconsensual condom removal as a clear violation of their bodily autonomy and the trust they had mistakenly placed in their sexual partner,” study author Alexandra Brodsky, a legal fellow at the National Women's Law Center, writes.

“Survivors [of stealthing] describe non-consensual condom removal as a threat to their bodily agency and as a dignitary harm,” she explains. “‘You have no right to make your own sexual decisions,’ they are told. ‘You are not worthy of my consideration.’”

Her report explores the phenomenon and shares the experiences of a number of victims.

“Obviously the part that really freaked me out was that it was such a blatant violation of what we’d agreed to,” one woman quoted in the study said. “I set a boundary. I was very explicit.”

@vonny_bravo It's quite shocking to read how vile some men are. I didn't even know #stealthing was a thing. The fuck's wrong with these guys?

— Mike P Williams (@Mike_P_Williams) April 24, 2017
Brodsky also shares the story of a woman called Rebecca who had herself been stealthed and now works for a sexual violence crisis hotline.

“Their stories often start the same way,” Rebecca said. “’I’m not sure if this is rape, but...’”

Brodsky says she decided to undertake the research when she was in law school in 2013 and realised how many of her friends were “struggling with forms of mistreatment by sexual partners that weren’t considered part of the recognized repertoire of gender based violence - but that seemed rooted in the same misogyny and lack of respect.”

Many women - for it is predominantly women - who are victims of stealthing feel conflicted about it as they don’t know the act of removing a condom during sex has a name. They knew they felt violated, but “didn’t have the vocabulary” to process it, Brodsky explained to the HuffPost.

“Everyone knew that it felt like a serious violation,” she says. “Everyone knew it was a betrayal of trust.

“A number of the people I talked to felt like because it wasn't something they'd heard discussed, because it wasn't something they had a name for, they struggled to know how to think about it in the context of other disrespectful and violent sexual experiences they'd had.”

Brodsky hopes her research will end this by shedding light on the practice, as it’s possible stealthing is on the rise.

I literally feel sick reading articles on #stealthing. What kind of person thinks that is ok? Vile, horrible creatures.

— Nicola (@oh_nicola) April 25, 2017
As part of her research, Brodsky delved into dark corners of the internet where she found communities of men discussing how to get away with stealthing and swapping tips. These are men who think it is their “right” to “spread their seed” with every woman they have sex with.

“One can note,” Brodsky writes, “that proponents of ‘stealthing’ root their support in an ideology of male supremacy in which violence is a man’s natural right.”

One man, for example, has published a “comprehensive guide” to committing the act:

He reveals how his first experience of stealthing gave him a rush “more intense than I can describe” and how he’s over time developed techniques that make sure he “shot my load deep inside the girl’s unsuspecting ****.”

“Of course,” he writes, “You can always try the, 'What's wrong? I thought you knew it was off? You mean you didn't feel it? I thought you knew!!' approach which for me has had a surprisingly high success rate.”

Brodksy believes stealthing may violate a number of criminal and civil laws and victims have the right to pursue justice, but none of the victims in the study took legal action.

However, earlier this year a Swiss man was convicted of rape for stealthing in a landmark case.

“Survivors experience real harms - emotional, financial, and physical - to which the law might provide remedy through compensation or simply an opportunity to be heard and validated,” she writes.

Just heard #stealthing exists and i think i want to be sick now.

— Derek Lavery (@DHLavery) April 24, 2017
But many of the existing laws are insufficient: “We know that the law doesn’t work for gender violence survivors,” she told HuffPost.

“Many of the myths and assumptions and forms of skepticism that we see from judges approaching rape victims and other kinds of sexual assault victims are likely to be present in stealthing cases.”

In the UK, the the Istanbul Convention, which aims to bring violence against women - including all non-consensual acts of a sexual nature - was ratified earlier this year, so stealthing would definitely come under that.

Brodsky thinks a new law specific to condom removal should be introduced.

Furthermore, she doesn’t want to give any power to the men who commit stealthing: “I think that term really trivialises the harm; it obscures the violence and makes it sound sneaky and maybe regrettable but ultimately an inevitable part of sex, and that's not true. We deserve better than that.

that article is from here