Concept of Trinity

[Ksa]

It is mentioned in Surat An-Nisā' Chapter number 4 verse number 171:

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."

When I ask Muslims why it is mentioned in the Qur'an not to speak of trinity, they say it's illogical, although, Allah never mentions in the Qur'an that it's illogical, Allah simply mentions that it is better for you not to speak of it. Does anyone have a verse in the Qur'an that clearly explains the illogical nature of trinity?

The way my Muslim friends explained it to me is that, "The Father is a person, the Son is a person, the Holy Spirit is a person, but they're not 3 persons but 1 person...what kind of language is that" It's illogical. Person, person, person, but it's not 3 persons but 1 person?!?"

The way I understand Trinity is that, the Son and the Holy Spirit are parts of God like my hand and my genitals are part of me. The son was God's right hand and the Holy Spirit was...what he used to get Mary pregnant. While the holy Spirit and Jesus may be persons, God is above anything we refer to as a person, as it is mentioned in Surah Ikhlas, chapter 112, verses 1-4:

"Say: He is Allah, The One and Only.
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him."

For some reason, Zakir Naik and sheik Ahmed Deedat both compare God to a person having a personality, when the Qur'an clearly states that the minute you compare God to anything in this world, he is not God, he begets not, nor is he begotten, there's nothing like him. If you understand those verses then, God is superior to any man with a personality the same way you are superior to your own hand or limbs, who have no IQ and can't achieve much by themselves. In this case, there should be no problem for a man with a personality to be part of God, and thus, for God to remain one in the trinity.

Besides, the Qur'an never seems to mention such verse where Trinity is qualified as illogical, so far I've only heard interpretations that it is illogical but no clear verses. In my understanding, Allah says it's better not to speak of Trinity because it is shameful, same as it is shameful if you speak of your intimate body parts. To me this seems a more plausible scenario. The misconception may arise when one claims, for God to be one he needs to have a personality. The concept of personality may be very primitive, and may only be a precursor to what God is portrayed as.

Anyone got an insight on this?

 

[rickolasnice]

From what you've posted it seems that the Qur'an is simply saying that God is God. Allah is Allah. Allah is God. There is no other God. No father no son and no holy spirit.. Simply Allah and a bunch of messengers.

As far as I know the Qur'an (and muslims) don't consider Jesus to be the son of God (or God) but simply another messenger of Allah.

And the holy trinity is illogical.. It makes no sense.

You are talking about the Catholic (/Christian) "Holy Trinity" .. right?

 

[Ksa]

From what you've posted it seems that the Qur'an is simply saying that God is God. Allah is Allah. Allah is God. There is no other God. No father no son and no holy spirit.. Simply Allah and a bunch of messengers.

As far as I know the Qur'an (and muslims) don't consider Jesus to be the son of God (or God) but simply another messenger of Allah.

And the holy trinity is illogical.. It makes no sense.

You are talking about the Catholic (/Christian) "Holy Trinity" .. right?

Yes. Brother, when you talk about your person, are you one, two or three? You are one right? Then you argue, hold on, I have ATP in my muscles, glucose in my blood, iron in my blood cells, I am made of many things and the many things I am made of, like atoms, are themselves made of many things like bosons.

God is made, among other things, of son and holy spirit. That doesn't mean God isn't one. What you understand by one is a sub-atomic particle so small that it is indivisible, indestructible and nothing can exist that is smaller nor bigger. That is not one. One means an entity.

 

[Foreigner]

It's a duality riddle.

 

[Ksa]

It's a duality riddle.

^_^

As far as I know the Qur'an (and muslims) don't consider Jesus to be the son of God (or God) but simply another messenger of Allah.

Ya Muslims consider Jesus to be the son of God, like Adam is the son of God, Abraham is the son of God, I am the son of God, anybody bound by the spirit of God, is son of God. The problem arises when the term begotten is used. Muslims say it is a concoction, it's interpolation, as found by 32 scholars of highest eminence and so on and they throw the term begotten out of the revised version.

Because...begetting is animal act, it belongs to the lower animal functions of sex etc.

Then Christians claim it is a spiritual title, that God did not bang Mary but then...we still don't know what happened between her and the Holy Spirit...if "son of God" is a spiritual title in that sense, it's pretty close to begetting because Mary became pregnant afterwards. God may not beget but she had to in order to deliver a child lol...because she was a human being.

 

[rickolasnice]

Probably because God and Mary were not married.. they're real strict on that sex before marriage stuff

Aye true.. I meant they don't believe he was God, like Christians do.

So, wait.. Do muslims believe in the whole virgin birth tale? Sorry I am pretty much completely ignorant when it comes to the Qur'an.

 

[Ksa]

Probably because God and Mary were not married.. they're real strict on that sex before marriage stuff

Aye true.. I meant they don't believe he was God, like Christians do.

So, wait.. Do muslims believe in the whole virgin birth tale? Sorry I am pretty much completely ignorant when it comes to the Qur'an.

Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously without any male intervention. I can quote references on demand.

 

[Tromps]

I wasn't expecting verses from the Qur'an in here or a Muslim perspective.

What is illogical about the trinity? Surely, if God is all powerful, then it should be no problem to take on the form of a human, live as one, and die as one.

1 John 5:7 There are three that testify, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the three are one.

There are 'concepts' that only God will fully understand. God is so far above us there are countless notions we can't wrap our head around and seem illogical to us. Many we can only begin to understand or comprehend.

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? For from him and through him and for him are all things.

It comes down to faith and there are beliefs we can only explain as mystery to us. There are also plenty of ideas and questions I can ask a Muslim, speaking human logic and their only response will refer to God and faith, because God can do what is illogical to us and do what is impossible for us.

In the Qur'an why did God create Jesus to be born out of the virgins womb, have him perform miracles, then as he was about to be taken lift him up to heaven before he was crucified and have it appear to be someone else, after doing this knowing that billions of people would be tricked and the worlds largest faith in Jesus would be born. Doesn't exactly make sense... Ah yes that's right God is "all knowing, all wise, and knows best" a Muslim would say.

As a sidenote - the Qur'an is one book/writing, with one author, written in one lifetime, with only one prophecy (which is just Muhammad's self-fulfilling prophecy that he would return to Mecca). The Bible has many books/writings put together, with many authors, in many lifetimes, and contains thousands of prophecies (with many already fulfilled and dozens still being fulfilled).

Just the image of Jesus on the cross, sacrificing himself for us, is a greater display of love than all of the words in the Qur'an combined.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, so that anyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life.

Matthew 28:18 Jesus (resurrected) approached them (his disciples) and said, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

 

[rickolasnice]

What is illogical about the trinity?

The 3 = 1 part?

The fully human being fully God, while God not being human part?

If Jesus was fully human yet no different from God, then God is human. If God is human God can't be God. If God isn't God then there is no God. If there is no God then Jesus was fully human, not God. If Jesus is not God then God can be God.

Who's ever account you wanna take as the truth of what Jesus said while on the cross kinda proves that Jesus was not God.

OP:

It sounds like the holy trinity being thought of as illogical among muslims is because A) It is and B) They have been taught that.. But it seems the beef the Qur'an has with the Holy Trinity is simply:

"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

and

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."

They simply don't believe Jesus was any part God and to call him one (even in the context of the trinity) is blasphemous.. but you seem to be right saying that the Qur'an doesn't directly say it is illogical.

 

[Tromps]

^ Let's stay on the topic title and not derail into original sin discussion. If you want to discuss original sin start another thread, thanks.

The trinity is like different states of matter. Water for example, in essence is h2o, yet has distinct states. At room temperature it is liquid, heat it up and it begins to vapor, cool it down and it freezes to ice. When you look at the three, liquid water, water vapor, and ice, they may have different appearances, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still one in essence, h2o, even though they are distinct. Similar logic applies, the trinity is one God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, each are distinct, however all are one in essence, God.

Simply put:

Ice, liquid water, water vapor = h2o.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit = God.

 

[Ksa]

^ Let's stay on the topic title and not derail into original sin discussion. If you want to discuss original sin start another thread, thanks.

The trinity is like different states of matter. Water for example, in essence is h2o, yet has distinct states. At room temperature it is liquid, heat it up and it begins to vapor, cool it down and it freezes to ice. When you look at the three, liquid water, water vapor, and ice, they may have different appearances, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still one in essence, h2o, even though they are distinct. Similar logic applies, the trinity is one God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, each are distinct, however all are one in essence, God.

Simply put:

Ice, liquid water, water vapor = h2o.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit = God.

Water, whatever the form, is created. God is uncreated. He begets not nor is he begotten. As soon as you can compare God to anything in this world, he is not God, there's nothing like him. The problem arises when you try to combine 2 things that are created with a thing that's uncreated. For example, assume you are God, the uncreated and you are a human body that cannot fly and you want to fly. You create a spaceship and go to another planet, then people argue, God is made of God, a spaceship and a fusion reactor.

They would be completely right because without a spaceship you, or , God, would not be able to visit the planet, so without it, God's power is limited. Same, without Jesus son of God, God cannot deliver a message to his people, so he is limited. The argument that God would turn into a spaceship only occurs when people don't understand what a spaceship really is lol. Same as Indians thought horsemen were one and would sometimes split into horse and man. They thought it was one entity. It's a mistake due to lack of understanding.

Those who argue that God's power is unlimited, CANNOT ACCEPT TRINITY.

 

[deaf eye]

^
Simply put:

Ice, liquid water, water vapor = h2o.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit = God.

yup thats how they dropped it on me in ccd :D

 

[Tromps]

Those who argue that God's power is unlimited, CANNOT ACCEPT TRINITY.

Not really. His power is unlimited therefore God can take his creations form and yet be fully divine and fully human at the same time, if he couldn't he wouldn't be God. Not hard to accept

What's hard for humans (generally) to accept is we cannot comprehend the incomprehensible.

Water, whatever the form, is created. God is uncreated. He begets not nor is he begotten. As soon as you can compare God to anything in this world, he is not God, there's nothing like him.

Now you're using passages from the Qur'an to further your argument

Gen 1:27 "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female."

We could debate Qur'an vs Bible all day long but I really don't think it'll get us any closer to truth. For anyone who has studied them both... I'll let the Bible stand on its own for this one. I believe Jesus and the NT can speak for itself in this matter

Btw here's my favorite verse in the Qur'an - English translated Koran:

Surah 2:62 "Surely those who believe [in Islam], and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good deeds, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."

 

[ebola?]

And the holy trinity is illogical.. It makes no sense.

To me, that's the point. It's one thing, but no, it's 3 things. It's unified, but no, it's also split into parts. It's infinite, immortal, omni-scent/potent/present, but also just a person who dies. It's also generative of itself.

So the point of the trinity, I think, is to explain that 'the divine' (maybe the grounding for all intelligibility) lies beyond comprehension via a set of illustrative paradoxes.

But I'm not Xian, so no one should care about this opinion.

ebola