Collagen Conscious Approach: Thoughts?

Fractality

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
91
While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.

I've seen this post floating around different boards and I'm wondering if anyone agrees with it. When I do eventually cycle in a few years I'm thinking of trying a low test and low/moderate deca cycle.
 
I've seen this post floating around different boards and I'm wondering if anyone agrees with it. When I do eventually cycle in a few years I'm thinking of trying a low test and low/moderate deca cycle.

You can tell its kinda old-school, as the half-lives are closer to: Deca 7.5 days, Eq 7 days, Primo 5 days, plus Eq is now thought to induce collagen synthesis slightly more than Deca...
Nit-picking aside, it seems an informative article, I would agree with its content.. Winstrol is terrible on connective tissue, that is a known fact.. Eq, Deca, Primo, Var can all be used successfully to stimulate collagen synthesis, therefore either would be a useful cycle inclusion to a heavy lifting regime....
I have heard comments from surgeons about body-builders tendons being much bigger than an average person, but the integrity is nowhere near the same, this can lead to frequent tendon injury.. Your article explains some of the science as to why this happens... Thanks for sharing..!!
 
Of course, I wanted to hear what the friendly and knowledgeable guys over here have to say about it.

What are your thoughts on a low test (no more than 200 mg per week) and moderate deca (400 mg per week) cycle?

I also know of one person who ran deca with no test and fared well.
 
Of course, I wanted to hear what the friendly and knowledgeable guys over here have to say about it.

What are your thoughts on a low test (no more than 200 mg per week) and moderate deca (400 mg per week) cycle?

I also know of one person who ran deca with no test and fared well.

That's a fairly conservative dosing schedule (no idea of lean body mass, so can't advise further)...

Deca alone, will likely shut down your bodies natural testosterone production, long term this is not what you want to be doing, its unhealthy...
 
That's a fairly conservative dosing schedule (no idea of lean body mass, so can't advise further)...

Well, right now I'm 23 and weigh 157 with a bodyfat around 14% (people say I look closer to 170 lbs for some reason) at 6' 1.5" and my strength numbers are:

Squat: 240 (I skipped leg day for a long time)
Bench: 230
Deadlift: 335 (just started deadlifting February of this year)
OHP: 135

So yes, I don't plan on starting a cycle for another 2 or 3 years.

Deca alone, will likely shut down your bodies natural testosterone production, long term this is not what you want to be doing, its unhealthy...

I understand. When I do begin using AAS, I will not be blasting and cruising. I will be PCTing off and then taking equal amount of time off that I spent on. For instance, 12 weeks on, PCT, and then 12 weeks off.

I plan on keeping testosterone low (say 250 mg a week) and then adding in a compound like deca.
 
Well, right now I'm 23 and weigh 157 with a bodyfat around 14% (people say I look closer to 170 lbs for some reason) at 6' 1.5" and my strength numbers are:

Squat: 240 (I skipped leg day for a long time)
Bench: 230
Deadlift: 335 (just started deadlifting February of this year)
OHP: 135

So yes, I don't plan on starting a cycle for another 2 or 3 years.

I understand. When I do begin using AAS, I will not be blasting and cruising. I will be PCT'ing off and then taking equal amount of time off that I spent on. For instance, 12 weeks on, PCT, and then 12 weeks off.

I plan on keeping testosterone low (say 250 mg a week) and then adding in a compound like deca.

For your height your on the light side... You need to eat more and follow a structured lifting program, to get size and weights up..

PCT could even be extended for longer, but 3 months is really a minimum to allow your HPTA to return to normal function and stay there for some time before shutting it down again...

You are aware Deca should cease 2 weeks before the Test, to allow clearance due to its long half life and residual metabolites...
 
For your height your on the light side... You need to eat more and follow a structured lifting program, to get size and weights up..

I agree, I need to get my diet and training down before starting AAS. I do follow a structured lifting program called 5/3/1. It's been working well so far. Do you think I should aim for a particular weight and body fat percentage before starting AAS?

PCT could even be extended for longer, but 3 months is really a minimum to allow your HPTA to return to normal function and stay there for some time before shutting it down again...

You are aware Deca should cease 2 weeks before the Test, to allow clearance due to its long half life and residual metabolites...

Okay, I definitely want to let my HPTA completely recover before running another cycle. I'm definitely a believer in that for health reasons.

I was vaguely aware of the difference in deca half-life versus test, but that helps clarify, thanks.
 
I would advise adding more lean body mass before starting a cycle. I'm 5' 6" and was around 175 when I began hormones. Eat a lot of clean food and keep pushing weights. You'll be surprised with the numbers you can hit naturally. I know I was. Granted I'm no expert on hormone protocol as I'm a beginner myself and experimenting with how compounds react. Best of luck and keep asking questions!
 
I agree, I need to get my diet and training down before starting AAS. I do follow a structured lifting program called 5/3/1. It's been working well so far. Do you think I should aim for a particular weight and body fat percentage before starting AAS?

5/3/1 isn't a lot of volume...

Bodyfat should be around 10%.... You should be able to put 20lbs onto your frame at your height at least..

AAS could be introduced if your gains eventually stall, when diet and training are optimal..
 
5/3/1 isn't a lot of volume...

Bodyfat should be around 10%.... You should be able to put 20lbs onto your frame at your height at least..

AAS could be introduced if your gains eventually stall, when diet and training are optimal..

I pair 5/3/1 with BB work.
 
Top