cognitive difficulties permanent?

[TheDEA.org]

but much of what thedea cites is just plainly false as far as the context he uses it in.

Well, that was about as useful as calling my mother ugly. What specifically do you object to? I'm always open to the possibility of being wrong about something, and always interested in learning more.

I have not included sources for the above mentioned statements due to what I perceived as a general disregard for such studies. If anyone would like to know sources, I'd be more than happy to provide them.

By all means.

 

[TheDEA.org]

Curiousgirl, in your opinion, are you as in control of language/linguistic structure as were prior to drug use?

You weren't asking me, but I'm better than ever with language. (I'd estimate about 200 tablets of MDMA, lifetime consumption, including some genuine abuse.) I love language. Momma was a professor of literature, so I had more than my fair share of exposure. Your writing style, for instance, tells me that you are highly intelligent, formally trained as a scientist, still quite young, and insecure about your intelligence (there's a hint of cultivated pretentiousness.)

Do I know you by any chance? You kind of remind me of somebody.

 

[atara]

Naturally, if you ask a group of E users if it's possibly causing permanent damage, we all want the answer to be "No! Absolutely not!" But.....it truly does seem unlikely that you're damaged beyond repair based on all the research that is available.

Crazy thing about the human brain is it's hard to mess it up permanently. Even people who suffered serious structural damage from a disease or trauma have been seen to recover -- and syphilis is probably just a tiny bit worse than MDMA in terms of brain damage.

except alcohol (in moderation, few times a week,

Hah. If you call that moderation.

With how many things is "a few times a week" moderation? Certainly not with other glutamatergics (DXM, ketamine), or other GABAergics (benzodiazepines, ambien), and alcohol hits both of those. Cannabis and peyote are the only things "known" to be safe with trans-weekly usage.

Granted, threshold usage doesn't count -- to go out on a limb here, I doubt you'll see any neurotoxicity in a person who takes 20 mg of MDMA at a time.

 

[drug_FUCKED]

Whats everyone's views on Ozzy Osbourne cognitive difficulties?
I just got his book should be an interesting read, after reading the Mötley Crüe book The Dirt.

 

[jayjay77]

If, on the other hand, you are trying to say that stereotype threat couldn't account for all of the deficiency measured in Shilt et al's word recall test, the research I cited suggests that it clearly can bridge the gap (and then some.)

Cole et al. does not provide raw scores on their write-up, neither do they show any difference in performance on immediate recall. Rather, their results are exclusively confined to differential performance on delayed recall scores. They offer an explanation for this: "The failure to demonstrate this with immediate recall may be due to a ceiling effect with this task in the normal population (as it was designed to detect cognitive deficits). Further work is needed to clarify this." In any case, it doesn't appear clear to me that this research (partly carried out by a MAPS research associate) can fully account for the changes in the Schilt study.

I believe they may indeed have been impaired. By definition, the research subjects who became drug users during the course of the study had changed. Their lifestyle had likely changed, their sleep habits may have changed, etc. These things could certainly have been factors. I would also expect MDMA (and just about any drug) to have the potential to cause subtle alterations of brain function lasting for weeks or even months after the last exposure, based simply on changes in receptor density. I wouldn't for a moment argue that MDMA can't make you dumb or screw with your memory. However, I don't see how a convincing argument can be made, given the SERT ligand brain scan work with very heavy users, that the sort of axonal pruning seen in animal models is occurring at recreational doses in humans.

I don't disagree with you; a variety of factors including changes in lifestyle could partially account for the impairment noted in the Schilt study. In fact, a recent study by longtime mdma investigators McCann and Ricaurte confirms the effect of sleep deprivation on abstinent MDMA users (McCann, 2009). However, it is not clear whether the sleep deprivation is due to 5-HT neurotoxicity or merely exacerbates it. Regardless, former MDMA users still exhibited deficits relative to controls on measures of memory. As far as the severity of axonal pruning seen in animal models occurring in humans, I would agree, but this may be beside the point as it is not necessarily axonal pruning that is accounting for the cognitive and emotional deficits plaguing mdma-exposed humans and I imagine that functional--not structural--compromise is the fundamental concern for mdma users.

So, you accept that you are stressed out and depressed (which by itself can very easily and fully explain your cognitive difficulties), yet you go looking for a secondary cause. Why? 'Do not multiply entities unnecessarily' and all that, wouldn't you agree?

I regret that I am stressed out and depressed, as this clearly clouds the concern I have over a genuine permanent deficit from mdma use.

Possible. On the other hand, depression (perhaps formerly partially treated with marijuana) remains the much simpler answer.

Much agreed, depression probably does account for the bulk and troubles of my perceived cognitive deficit.

I should point out that my interest has always been in the gross structural injury to the serotonin system, as this was (and still is) the primary focus of interest in the field of MDMA neurotoxicity. I do not preclude the possibility of lasting harm to neurological function by other means, such as persistent changes in signaling pathways mediated by permanent changes in inter-neuron connections, gene regulation, etc. In fact, I would bet that it's possible.

In regard to the last few years of research, I'd have to disagree with this statement. While structural injury is not definitively concluded by any means, it is not so important anyway. MDMA users still exhibit deficits in cognitive and emotional function apart despite structural recovery (or absence of detectable structural insult). One quite recent study reports altered serotonergic transmission in abstinent users (mean 476 days), resulting in differences in semantic encoding and retrieval pathways (V Raj, 2010). This study overlaps with a study from the same lab reporting decreased grey matter in former mdma users in several areas known to mediate verbal memory (Cowan, 2003). Thus while SERT levels may normalize, the coupling of serotonergic transmission with neurotrophic factors may be contributing/responsible for observed neuropsychological deficits.

As I've said before, I've seen this drug destroy minds and lives. It's not pretty. But that's also not relevent to the question at hand, which is why somebody with a perfectly simple and obvious explanation for their problems (depression, anxiety, stress) is trying so hard to find an explanation elsewhere. At the very least, an intellectually honest person would admit to themselves that the depression had to be a major contributing factor.

And as I've said before, I don't believe that prior MDMA use is responsible for the bulk of my troubles. Depression and anxiety is undoubtedly a major culprit in my perceived dysfunction. However, this does not mean that MDMA use does not impact my performance in any way, and this is my concern. While this is a time in my life where I am attempting a radical shift toward self-improvement, I want to be sure I hit the problem from all angles; if past MDMA use is in fact one of them, I want to address it.

And you may even be right. As I imagine you well know, science rarely offers absolute, inviolate truth. Instead, it offers probabilities, odds, trends. The very high odds are that your problems are due to your depression.

The odds are quite high that the bulk of my problems are due to my depression, though the odds are not so high (rather low actually) that ecstasy use has not in any way negatively impacted my cognition--correct me if I'm wrong, in fact, I'd much prefer to be wrong.

At the very least, it's in your interest to treat the clearly known problem.

Would never disagree with this statement. I am currently working on it through regular exercise, better nutrition, intellectual stimulation, socialization, and optimism.

 

[jayjay77]

Well, that was about as useful as calling my mother ugly. What specifically do you object to? I'm always open to the possibility of being wrong about something, and always interested in learning more.

I object to your assertion of SERT data to suggest an absence of cognitive impairment. Especially in the light of the Cowan study on reduced grey matter concentration in MDMA users, this seemed altogether untenable. Although I do want to say that in no way did I mean to insult you. I actually appreciate the effort and thoughtfulness of your responses, as well as the apparent careful research you've put into the topic. And in case I haven't come off this way, I too am always open to the possibility of being wrong and learning a great deal from my errors.

 

[jayjay77]

You weren't asking me, but I'm better than ever with language. (I'd estimate about 200 tablets of MDMA, lifetime consumption, including some genuine abuse.) I love language. Momma was a professor of literature, so I had more than my fair share of exposure. Your writing style, for instance, tells me that you are highly intelligent, formally trained as a scientist, still quite young, and insecure about your intelligence (there's a hint of cultivated pretentiousness.)

Do I know you by any chance? You kind of remind me of somebody.

Ha, is that so? I'll admit that I am intelligent, trained as a scientist though firstly as a philosopher, and young. I'm also insecure about my intelligence as I feel it has been threatened and perhaps diminished by drug use. As far as an air of cultivated pretentiousness, this is veil over my anxiety (which evidently is still very much perceptible). I suppose I'm trying to reduce the effect of other's natural (and quite caring) responses to my worries, as I'd prefer a strict factual and experiential discussion on the matter--I've deemed this, what I call truth, to be most comforting. 'Knowledge is power' right?

Your articulate manner, confidence, and continued love of language affords me much relief. I look forward to your future responses on the topic.

 

[MazDan]

I am currently working on it through regular exercise, better nutrition, intellectual stimulation, socialization, and optimism.

In the end, this^^ along with good quality and regular sleep is really all you can do.

So no matter how much toing and froing you do and who is right and who is wrong...........its not going to make much difference to the bottom line which is that you need to live a good clean healthy lifestyle.


Great discussion by the way.

One thing i was wondering though................jay jay, is it healthy for you to continue to dwell on this?

Is it possible that your continued "worry" is only making things worse?



Im a great believer in what I call "reprogramming" the brain. Best explained by examples..........


12 months ago I had a dog next door that barked incessantly all night and was driving me nuts. After a month or so of this damn dog I decided to try and block it from me by accepting its there and just getting on with life. Two weekends ago my brother stayed over and in the morning complained about the damn dog........lol, I had completely forgotten about it but when I thought about it........yep it was still there. I realised i hadnt been bothered by it for months and months.


Another example is when I was coming off a stint of Effexor and had brain zaps. I had read many testimonials from people claiming how horrid they were and I was dreading them. The first few were not much fun but I also realised they were not killing me and so I decided to look forward to them as an experience in life and something to be cherished. They didnt stop because of that but they did become something I looked forward to and as such a positive thing in my life.



I can give heaps more but im sure you get the idea.


Maybe thats something you can use to help your situation.

 

[tobala]

Whats everyone's views on Ozzy Osbourne cognitive difficulties?
I just got his book should be an interesting read after the motley crew book.

lol, in the relative scheme of things, he probably survived his alcoholism pretty well (cognitively-speaking), and he seems loopy simply because he talks so damn funny...

/off topic

 

[tvas22]

you also said you had still been smoking weed? I know for a fact weed made me stupider, or at least, I couldn't do work as well. In fact, almost exactly how you described yourself feeling. I stopped smoking weed well over a year ago and it was probably december before I felt normal completely. I also have anxiety issues too and I have found that when I am suffering from anxiety I find it really difficult to concentrate and do my uni work, even a low level of anxiety. Maybe as well, you just don't feel like your work is going as well as before, whereas in fact it might be that you are struggling a little more and are panicking about it, which is in turn making work seem harder?

 

[AylaV]

You weren't asking me, but I'm better than ever with language. (I'd estimate about 200 tablets of MDMA, lifetime consumption, including some genuine abuse.) I love language. Momma was a professor of literature, so I had more than my fair share of exposure. Your writing style, for instance, tells me that you are highly intelligent, formally trained as a scientist, still quite young, and insecure about your intelligence (there's a hint of cultivated pretentiousness.)

Do I know you by any chance? You kind of remind me of somebody.

I personally love writing as well as a hobby. It should be noted that although my lingual skills and vocabulary suffer for a short period, it always comes back and I'm as adept as ever. Reading seems to help me recover more rapidly for some reason, but it could be that it's just placebo. These are my written skills after not having done MDxx in just over three months with years of heavy abuse behind me.

I'm sure my story is atypical, but I find it highly doubtful that with your extremely limited use of MDMA, jayjay, that it could have caused any lasting psychological damage for you. Humans are known for making connections and believing things. We're designed to pick up on similarities (which is why coincidences seem so "meaningful" to us), so it's completely understandable that you heard rumours about MDMA and linked it to some perceived deficiency of your own.

Just my take on it =)

 

[clay404]

You weren't asking me, but I'm better than ever with language. (I'd estimate about 200 tablets of MDMA, lifetime consumption, including some genuine abuse.)

at what point did you feel like you needed to cut back? when you did abuse, did you notice side effects/loss of magic? did these go away after you adopted smarter habits?

 

[jayjay77]

I personally love writing as well as a hobby. It should be noted that although my lingual skills and vocabulary suffer for a short period, it always comes back and I'm as adept as ever. Reading seems to help me recover more rapidly for some reason, but it could be that it's just placebo. These are my written skills after not having done MDxx in just over three months with years of heavy abuse behind me.

I'm sure my story is atypical, but I find it highly doubtful that with your extremely limited use of MDMA, jayjay, that it could have caused any lasting psychological damage for you. Humans are known for making connections and believing things. We're designed to pick up on similarities (which is why coincidences seem so "meaningful" to us), so it's completely understandable that you heard rumours about MDMA and linked it to some perceived deficiency of your own.

Just my take on it =)

Again, very glad to hear of someone with a similar passion remaining unaffected by prior ecstasy use--and I agree very much with the stimulating effects of reading.

My concerns centered not so much around rumors--actually those around me that used were quite pleased with their decisions--but around scientific studies on the topic. Most notably, there is a particular study which suggests decreased verbal memory function in 75% of low dose users (met allele carriers) after 18 weeks abstinence. Another study suggests full recovery of verbal memory function from light use (no more than once per month) after 6 months abstinence (Golding, 2007). Yet another study suggests that altered semantic processing in users averaging 50 pills (though perhaps not measurable functional deficits as tests may be insensitive to degree of impairment), but with one user in the study estimated at 8 pills lifetime usage.

But quite apart from scientific investigation, I haven't myself noticed specific deficits attributable to mdma use. I consider this to be an effect either of (1) I am a val allele carrier and so not negatively affected from light use or (2) The degree of impairment is negligible. In either case--though of course I hope for the first (but this may be unlikely considering personality traits correlated with valmet polymorphism, though in no way can I affirm this without adequate testing)--I think I'm okay. I react quite strongly to the whole ordeal as I love language as well and would be utterly devastated to have disrupted this intimacy in any way. Language, for me, is a powerful and meaningful medium (not to mention music, which has been evidenced to use the similar neural pathways to language processing).

In all, I much appreciate the experiences--these are genuine mood-lifters and I welcome any more stories. I think, as a precautionary measure, I will try documented verbal memory exercises and perhaps even chronic herbal supplement use.

For all those interested or experienced, I'm currently considering Ashwagandha, Bacopa, and perhaps St John's Wort. I've heard mixed things, but my research suggests that these are all safe (and possible effective) with controlled use. In addition, research has shown that musical training (auditory stimulation) increases verbal memory capacity by recruiting other areas of the brain (in this case, the primary visual cortex). I'm also taking on some Yoga with my girlfriend, which again has been shown to increase verbal memory performance through unknown mechanisms.

 

[incognition]

Interesting topic. I went back to uni at the age of 35 to study computer science after over 15 years of frequent drug use, not much MDMA though - maybe 50 times. I have taken insane amounts of psychedelics - LSD, mushrooms, DMT and a bunch of RC's, been drinking like a pig at weekends, smoked pot daily until 2 years ago. For example, i had heavy DMT-sessions 2-3 times a week the first year i discovered that drug. And it have always been the same with all psychedelics, too much & too frequent. I've also done DXM about 15 times, and a bit of ket now and then.

EDIT: I forgot. 4 months of 24/7 GHB abuse. And a bit of coke now and then. 2 litres of ether, glue 4 times ( not as an adult ffs! ), whippets etc, etc. Basically anything served except heroin.

I was really worried about cognitive decline when i started school, since my short term memory DO have suffered from this. I'm sure. But my results at uni are fine - straight A's, and its fairly demanding stuff all that calculus and programming, for someone not being close to anything scientific in 15 years..

My conclusion is that frequent use of the above mentioned drugs will not make you stupid. Possibly a bit weird and forgetful, but not stupid as in low IQ. Don't worry.

 

[Horrux]

Many great geniuses were thought to be surprisingly forgetful...

 

[jayjay77]

Interesting topic. I went back to uni at the age of 35 to study computer science after over 15 years of frequent drug use, not much MDMA though - maybe 50 times. I have taken insane amounts of psychedelics - LSD, mushrooms, DMT and a bunch of RC's, been drinking like a pig at weekends, smoked pot daily until 2 years ago. For example, i had heavy DMT-sessions 2-3 times a week the first year i discovered that drug. And it have always been the same with all psychedelics, too much & too frequent. I've also done DXM about 15 times, and a bit of ket now and then.

EDIT: I forgot. 4 months of 24/7 GHB abuse. And a bit of coke now and then. 2 litres of ether, glue 4 times ( not as an adult ffs! ), whippets etc, etc. Basically anything served except heroin.

I was really worried about cognitive decline when i started school, since my short term memory DO have suffered from this. I'm sure. But my results at uni are fine - straight A's, and its fairly demanding stuff all that calculus and programming, for someone not being close to anything scientific in 15 years..

My conclusion is that frequent use of the above mentioned drugs will not make you stupid. Possibly a bit weird and forgetful, but not stupid as in low IQ. Don't worry.

Interesting...only your short-term memory is affected then?

 

[AylaV]

The only long-term effect I got from MDMA was short term memory loss.. and that went away fairly quickly. Even then, I still lose things all the time. It drives me nuts.

 

[jayjay77]

The only long-term effect I got from MDMA was short term memory loss.. and that went away fairly quickly. Even then, I still lose things all the time. It drives me nuts.

This is surprising to me; most of the studies I've read consistently report reductions in verbal learning and memory but much less frequently is short-term memory compromised long-term...Personally I seem to be experiencing the former: I just can't read dense material as long as I used to be able to without feeling exhausted, I feel like I'm always searching for words, and my memory of words I've just seen doesn't seem as strong. Now I know I can't be sure of anything and I know my mood has a lot to do with this, but it is difficult to remain without skepticism when I read testimonials from people who have 'recovered' and they are filled with grammatical errors. It reminds me of a study I read comparing x users who think they have memory problems and x users who don't; both performed similarly on neuropsychological testing.

I'm just not convinced that the brain can actually recover, or that recovery implies restoration of function. Other kinds of brain damage generally don't report full recovery, i.e., stroke, impact, hypoxia, and I wonder why mdma-induced damage would be any different? Certainly the bulk of longitudinal studies hasn't shown otherwise...

Perhaps these aren't questions for an online forum, a neurologist much more--but if there is anyone else with experiences...

 

[Horrux]

The only long-term effect I got from MDMA was short term memory loss.. and that went away fairly quickly. Even then, I still lose things all the time. It drives me nuts.

I got short-term memory loss but I never lose anything.

I still can verbally discourse with the best of them, never short of words. Although I seem even better with the written word.

 

[TheDEA.org]

Hi guys, sorry about disappearing on you. I had a rather distracting intellectual property issue to clear up with my employer.

I object to your assertion of SERT data to suggest an absence of cognitive impairment.

Ahhh. Yes, I agree; cognitive impairment in the absence of structural injury is a very real (and sometimes very serious) issue. I can get a little fixated on the issue of axonal pruning since that's where the light and heat of the traditional debate is.

The question of unhealthy effects short of traditional neurotoxicity is an issue that I haven't found a satisfactory answer for yet. Drugs, like any intense experience, can produce some persistent alteration of brain function. How scared should we be? Should we think of it as injury, or something slightly different?

I am very wary of the 'spot the brain damage in the drug users' sort of research. On the one hand, it's clear that there are population differences, but how much of these differences can be laid at the feet of the drug itself is maddeningly hard to tease out.

Many years ago, when I was suffering from depression and anxiety, I had much the same symptoms you have. I couldn't remember what should have been the most obvious of words. I would struggle to recall things, only to fail. It was absolutely terrifying. I thought I was losing my mind, and in a sense, I was. Depression itself is very neurologically unhealthy, which raises the question of whether the deficits in former 'ecstasy' users might be related to previous depressive episodes. ('Ecstasy' users have a much higher rate of pre-existing mental illness than the general population.)

The good news is that yes, as horrifying as your symptoms seem to be, they are easily and completely explainable by your depression/anxiety. The reduced sleep quality alone caused by these problems can be incredibly destructive to cognitive function. (My period of depression and associated severe cognitive problems came before any drug use by several years, so I know drug use didn't contribute to it.)

You seem to have made a good start on treating your depression, but if your current measures aren't enough, don't be afraid to seek professional help too. Asking for help (from a therapist) was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but it also turned out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Thus while SERT levels may normalize, the coupling of serotonergic transmission with neurotrophic factors may be contributing/responsible for observed neuropsychological deficits.

I agree. But I'm not ready to accept claims of causality without more to go on than a correlation. If disruptions of SERT density alone were enough to cause these problems, most antidepressants (which have the same effect) could also be expected to produce long-term cognitive problems.

You have a wonderful mind. Whatever the root causes are, I feel confident that you'll be able to make your way out of your current difficulties (and again, don't be afraid to ask for help.)