Exactly what I was wondering, personally I didn't really start to notice a lift in depression after I stopped all psychedelics about five years ago. Now I used MDMA maybe once or twice a year if that.
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cognitive difficulties permanent?
- Thread starter jayjay77
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Exactly what I was wondering, personally I didn't really start to notice a lift in depression after I stopped all psychedelics about five years ago. Now I used MDMA maybe once or twice a year if that.
Bsiren
Bluelight Crew
Considering how little you've used compared to the lot of us, I doubt this is the cause of your cognitive problems.
Naturally, if you ask a group of E users if it's possibly causing permanent damage, we all want the answer to be "No! Absolutely not!"
But.....it truly does seem unlikely that you're damaged beyond repair based on all the research that is available.
I'd try investigating what supplements you can take to improve your brain function- certain supplements are repairing for what damage MDMA may cause.
Naturally, if you ask a group of E users if it's possibly causing permanent damage, we all want the answer to be "No! Absolutely not!"
But.....it truly does seem unlikely that you're damaged beyond repair based on all the research that is available.I'd try investigating what supplements you can take to improve your brain function- certain supplements are repairing for what damage MDMA may cause.
Considering how little you've used compared to the lot of us, I doubt this is the cause of your cognitive problems.
Naturally, if you ask a group of E users if it's possibly causing permanent damage, we all want the answer to be "No! Absolutely not!"
I'd try investigating what supplements you can take to improve your brain function- certain supplements are repairing for what damage MDMA may cause.
I don't think that mdma is the cause of the severity of my cognitive problems, I believe that it may well be contributing to them. As other problems, e.g., anxiety, depression, can be but aren't necessarily permanent in nature as is neurological damage (generally speaking), I want to address and if possible attenuate the possible damage that may have occurred as a result of my mdma use.
Supplements--not sure if there are any, i've looked around without much success. It seems the majority support short-term functioning rather than long-term reparation...haven't experimented with any as of yet, apart from fish oil. others?
curiousgirl
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MazDan
Bluelight Crew
Cheers for that.
Do you feel that mdma in any way made it worse or changed it in any way?
Do you feel that mdma in any way made it worse or changed it in any way?
curiousgirl
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Using both MDMA and MJ has changed me a bit, MDMA in particular helped me to examine my life and move on from some things that were holding me back.
There was a brief period of time last year after I used MDMA once monthly for about 7-8 months straight when I was afraid I might have "messed myself up." I was feeling pretty negative about things, but it wasn't exactly the same feeling as when I was depressed years earlier. It definitely did not interfere with logical thinking and my ability to write for my job the way the depression did.
Nevertheless, I decided that I was probably "too old" to be rolling once a month and quit completely. I will re-examine my position at my one year anniversary mark, but I don't see myself ever rolling more than a few times a year in the future.
A year on, I am not sure if that period of "weirdness" was or was not actually related to my MDMA use, but I feel better right now in this very moment than I ever have in my life and I do not believe that the total 35 or so times I have used MDMA have left any lasting negative effects.
There was a brief period of time last year after I used MDMA once monthly for about 7-8 months straight when I was afraid I might have "messed myself up." I was feeling pretty negative about things, but it wasn't exactly the same feeling as when I was depressed years earlier. It definitely did not interfere with logical thinking and my ability to write for my job the way the depression did.
Nevertheless, I decided that I was probably "too old" to be rolling once a month and quit completely. I will re-examine my position at my one year anniversary mark, but I don't see myself ever rolling more than a few times a year in the future.
A year on, I am not sure if that period of "weirdness" was or was not actually related to my MDMA use, but I feel better right now in this very moment than I ever have in my life and I do not believe that the total 35 or so times I have used MDMA have left any lasting negative effects.
psychomimetic
Bluelighter
I think 9 pills in one year could totally cause noticable cognitive impairment. Everyone is different.
MazDan
Bluelight Crew
MazDan
Bluelight Crew
A refrigerator falling from a plane could totally cause noticable cognitive impairment to.
Whether you realize it or not, your post is addressing an incredibly complex topic, probably exacerbated by your self-analysis.
Some studies (I can't quote references now) have suggested that cognitive impairment from using E is actually more subjectively experienced some time AFTER you stop using E.
There are an infinite number of variables that may be affecting what you perceive is a cognitive impairment. My opinion, which has no inherent truth or correctness, is that you may be attributing a perceived cognitive impairment to using E when the impairment could be due to any number of variables or may not even exist in the first place.
What is fairly true is that if you have decided that you are impaired and also believe that it is due to using E, then you are going to keep finding "proof" that you are impaired due to using E.
Try this on: Your perception of your cognitive abilities and perhaps even your actual cognitive abilities are going to change due to a variety of factors as you go through life. E may or may not be one of those factors. You are who you are, and you're fine just the way you are.
...and having smoked pot regularly for years cannot possibly have anything to do with it.
That post was very interesting, thedea.
I think we should have a sticky regrouping all the better research on ecstasy effects and aftereffects.
That post was very interesting, thedea.
I think we should have a sticky regrouping all the better research on ecstasy effects and aftereffects.
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I agree with that very much actually, though I can't say that thedea's post was so helpful. I'm entirely behind a skeptical perspective toward science (especially with drugs) but much of what thedea cites is just plainly false as far as the context he uses it in. Opinion is just fine but disregarding scientific evidence while claiming expertise and careful analysis on the subject is criminal. Other research--much less 'feel good' research--should be provided and carefully considered. This "neuroadaptive" catch-all assertion on ecstasy's long-term effects is misleading...the brain can adapt and readjust only so much; after that point we are talking compensation resulting in functional compromise (cognitive and emotional).
I have not included sources for the above mentioned statements due to what I perceived as a general disregard for such studies. If anyone would like to know sources, I'd be more than happy to provide them.
AylaV
Bluelighter
Forgive me if I'm out of line here, but it seems to me like you WANT to believe that MDMA did this to you, most likely out of a need to be the victim for some subconscious (conscious?) reason. It seems like you're disregarding scientific evidence and going out of your way to prove that MDMA caused you huge issues six months after the fact.
I don't think you're out of line, and believe me, I want more than anything to think MDMA did not do anything to me of permanence. I don't believe it is the sole or even predominant cause of my current cognitive concerns, nor do I feel the need to make myself a victim in some way or another. In addition and for I believe the 3rd time now, I do not think MDMA caused issues 6 months after the fact, merely that I noticed/considered the issue at this time.
My personal scientific conclusion on the matter is that low use MDMA usage in uncontrolled (recreational) environments results in measurable cognitive/emotional compromise. The purpose of my posts (or at the very least original intent for them) has been to determine whether a similar impairment resolves over time/assisted with a therapeutic regimen. Longitudinal studies to date have been equivocal, mostly concluding that either no improvement or subtle improvement but not full recovery. As this could be a function of amount of MDMA use or other variables, I posted to investigate other's experiences on the matter. Although emotionally supportive (and for this I do appreciate, truly), the majority of posters have not attended to the original question. Whether this is a result of tendencies toward defensiveness, scientific skepticism, or just outright disbelief in my own appraisal of cognitive functioning I do not know; what I do know is the question on large remains unanswered, and for the sake of possibility and the comfort of hope I will pose this question another time:
Given that I am experiencing cognitive dysfunction after drug (quite probably though not definitely MDMA) use, should I be accepting this as a permanent change to myself remediable in no way whatsoever, or is there a specific regimen that another person of the same order has used to encourage recovery. I'm open to many suggestions, prior MDMA use estimated at 9 pills. I've stopped all drug use except alcohol (in moderation, few times a week, no binging). Also, anecdotal input is more than welcome regarding recovery of cognitive function (please do refrain from all anecdotal input concerning NO cognitive dysfunction after use, as this is not what I am experiencing).
Liquid Sunshine
Bluelighter
The 'one dose can cause permanent changes in the brain' was actually a faulty study; it turns out due to a 'labeling error', he was injecting methamphetamine into the monkeys brains. Yes. There was brain damage after the first time he INJECTED METH DIRECTLY INTO THE MONKEYS POOR, POOR BRAINS.
MazDan
Bluelight Crew
There is.
Check out the directory and in the first post you will find a link to heaps of studies.
Please advise if there are any I have missed out.
Curiousgirl, in your opinion, are you as in control of language/linguistic structure as were prior to drug use? Being a writer and all I imagine that you would have to have a command of language, perhaps even a mastery of it. Do you feel as confident in your writing abilities as you ever have (not so much just your ability to express yourself meaningfully but also creatively, clearly, and intricately)? I've been noticing myself make more linguistic errors both typing and writing than I used to (general grammar including spelling is more strenuous); I've also noticed myself needing to search for the right word more often as well as making more errors deriving longer words from base roots and inversely, e.g., persevere to perseverance or therapy to therapeutic, and idiosyncratic to idio (individual).
Wondering if this is perhaps a side effect of general reasoning/memory dysfunction specifically related to depression or anxiety? mdma (verbal memory deficits)? any help much appreciated
xocatastrophe
Bluelighter
I have the same problem with stumbling over words and such.. never really considered that it was because of the e.
Generally the damage slowly reverses, you'll be alright.
Generally the damage slowly reverses, you'll be alright.
What did you attribute it to?
TheDEA.org
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Do you mean to say that you feel stereotype threat does not account for all of YOUR observed deficiencies in memory? If so, that's what I've been trying to say from the start.
If, on the other hand, you are trying to say that stereotype threat couldn't account for all of the deficiency measured in Shilt et al's word recall test, the research I cited suggests that it clearly can bridge the gap (and then some.)I believe they may indeed have been impaired. By definition, the research subjects who became drug users during the course of the study had changed. Their lifestyle had likely changed, their sleep habits may have changed, etc. These things could certainly have been factors. I would also expect MDMA (and just about any drug) to have the potential to cause subtle alterations of brain function lasting for weeks or even months after the last exposure, based simply on changes in receptor density. I wouldn't for a moment argue that MDMA can't make you dumb or screw with your memory. However, I don't see how a convincing argument can be made, given the SERT ligand brain scan work with very heavy users, that the sort of axonal pruning seen in animal models is occurring at recreational doses in humans. (At least, in most cases. Humans are varied bunch, genetically and behaviorally.)
So, you accept that you are stressed out and depressed (which by itself can very easily and fully explain your cognitive difficulties), yet you go looking for a secondary cause. Why? 'Do not multiply entities unnecessarily' and all that, wouldn't you agree?
Yes, several months. My apologies if my imprecise choice of words implied something else.
Possible. On the other hand, depression (perhaps formerly partially treated with marijuana) remains the much simpler answer.
If the measurements had been simply of total SERT within the brain, I would agree with that statement. However, a very large body of animal evidence shows that MDMA neurotoxicity results in a re-distribution of serotonin axons; some regions become hyper-enervated, while others (further from the raphe nuclei) are forever de-enervated.
True, true. But the return of SERT densities to normal on a per-region basis is not compatible with a theory of axonal pruning.
I should point out that my interest has always been in the gross structural injury to the serotonin system, as this was (and still is) the primary focus of interest in the field of MDMA neurotoxicity. I do not preclude the possibility of lasting harm to neurological function by other means, such as persistent changes in signaling pathways mediated by permanent changes in inter-neuron connections, gene regulation, etc. In fact, I would bet that it's possible.
Absolutely true. As I have always told people. If I had to boil down my position to a single sentence, I would say "At common recreational doses, MDMA won't eat holes in your brain or destroy your serotonin system, but it can seriously fuck you up (functionally and emotionally) if you over-do it." As I've said before, I've seen this drug destroy minds and lives. It's not pretty. But that's also not relevent to the question at hand, which is why somebody with a perfectly simple and obvious explanation for their problems (depression, anxiety, stress) is trying so hard to find an explanation elsewhere. At the very least, an intellectually honest person would admit to themselves that the depression had to be a major contributing factor.
And you may even be right. As I imagine you well know, science rarely offers absolute, inviolate truth. Instead, it offers probabilities, odds, trends. The very high odds are that your problems are due to your depression.
At the very least, it's in your interest to treat the clearly known problem.