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Codeine and CWE Megathread - The long awaited!

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I can understand Sonny Jim's point. And I suppose regular, long-term ingestion of even small amounts of Ibuprofen or Paracetamol may cause health problems later down in the track. However, Zelto probably wants confirmation with professional documents rather than a simple point stated, with all do respect - Sonny.
As for the discussion of CWE's and Poppy seed teas on the internet, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Many people use the internet as a vital guide for drug information, and unfortunately some people either aren't intelligent enough, or don't have the resources, to figure out cold water extractions on their own. Not to forget the fact that you're also contributing to the discussion by presenting a valid point. It just seems rather contradictory.
 
Sonny Jim, I can understand your concerns. It is valid to bring up the health risks of paracetamol, ibuprofen, and the risk of addiction. These issues have also been covered excellently by Mr Blonde in the very first post of this thread. Still, I don't think there's any problem reminding people again not to become complacent with their cwe's, especially as the thread grows in length.

However, as we've discussed before, Bluelight is a harm reduction site, and these threads are firmly in the spirit of harm reduction. There is far more risk of ibuprofen/paracetamol toxicity if you're not doing a cwe. This thread and the poppy seed tea thread wont, and will never be, removed. You've stated your points Sonny Jim, and repeating them over and over wont make them any more salient. This argument has gone round in circles and further posts stating the same points (by any poster) without any new discussion/information may be removed, as at this stage they're not developing any further useful discussion.
 
I know these thread wont be closed, I am not naive enough to imagine they would.

I just want people to think about it.

People who are asking for formal research on ibuprofen and paracetamol toxicity need to wake up to themselves before it is to late. I didn't bother posting links because it is stating the obvious. Maybe I should because no one seems to understand how toxic even ibuprofen is in the long term. I will try and post some stuff later.
 
Your 'points' are so poorly made and confused, they are not points at all, just so much flotsam and jetsom.Stop trolling and take your silly 12 year olds game and all your nothing and fuddle with you.

i made a long post which i deleted upon noticing the last bit of footscrazy's last post.
i'm not going to waste any more time pointing out who i think is a troll.
 
Sonny_Jim said:
People who are asking for formal research on ibuprofen and paracetamol toxicity need to wake up to themselves before it is to late. I didn't bother posting links because it is stating the obvious. Maybe I should because no one seems to understand how toxic even ibuprofen is in the long term. I will try and post some stuff later.

While your goal of raising awareness of ibuprofen/paracetamol toxicity is valid, something that I have noticed in your posts, is that rather than just warning people of the dangers, you can come across like you're telling people what to do, that they must stop. I feel like this is what may be antagonising people. Your points are valid, but people may reasonably decide that the risk from ibuprofen/paracetamol toxicity is acceptable to them for whatever reason, be it cost, convenience, maintenance, etc. That's their choice to make. Acceptable consequences to one are not the same as to another. For this reason, I think it would be really useful to back up your claims with some journal articles, as this will help people make a more informed decision.
 
sorry i havnt taken the time to read much of the thread but sunny jim ya are correct in the sense that taking Ibu & APAP even in recommended doses is bad for ya self.

they did a study where a lady popped a gram of apap a day for a year & it had efected there liver. i think its actually on wikipedia.

& than theres the codeine. not exactly good for ya health. but i mean its not as bad as having even 1-2 beers i think
 
btw does anyone know the solubility of APAP at 10 °C?

according to wikipedia 12.78mg/mL (20 °C) is soluble

so that's 1.278g of APAP in 100mL at 20 °C (I use 100mL of water with my cwe)

that's not alot of APAP but used regually could still be bad for ya so I'm curious about the solubility at 10 °C. I havnt been able to find it out anywhere on the net so far but i do remember reading it somewhere on BL

Does anyone know?
 
erowid only has the solubility at 31°C & 21°C it's not important anyway. I only use 100mL & I put it in the freezer for half an hr so if 1g is soluble in 150mL at 21°C than it's gotta be less than 500mg per cwe. id guess at about 250mg of apap
 
I have been on prescription painkillers for chronic back pain resulting from a workplace injury for just over 3 years now.

I was on panadine fortes and was taking between 4 and 6 a day with the full endorsement of my GP.

I was concerned about the amount of Paracetamol I was taking and had asked many times if I should be worried and if there was an alternative solution to my pain relief, I was told over and over again by 3 different GP's that there was no risk at all from paracetamol and could safely take 8 panadine fortes a day with no worries.

So basically the standard respond was that 4000mg a day was ok.

This was contrary to a lot of info I found online and also my instinct was telling me this was wrong, when I mentioned ld50 levels I was pretty much dismissed as being not intelligent enough to understand my own condition and the Dr's seemed kind of annoyed that I was questioning there advice.

Then last year this article appeared on the BBC health website.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15837468

(Taking slightly too much paracetamol day after day can be fatal, experts have warned.

A dangerous dose might just be a few pills too many taken regularly over days, weeks or months, they said.

Researchers at Edinburgh University saw 161 cases of "staggered overdose" at its hospital over a 16-year period.

People taking tablets for chronic pain might not realise they were taking too many or recognise symptoms of overdose and liver injury, they said.

The researchers told the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology that this life-threatening condition could be easily missed by doctors and patients.

Doctors may not initially spot the problem because blood tests will not show the staggeringly high levels of paracetamol seen with a conventional overdose, where someone may have swallowed several packets of the drug.

Patients who have taken a staggered overdose tend to fare worse than those who have taken a large overdose, the study suggests.

Dr Kenneth Simpson and colleagues looked at the medical records of 663 patients who had been referred with paracetamol-induced liver injury to the Scottish Liver Transplantation Unit at the university hospital.

The 161 who had taken a staggered overdose were more likely to develop liver and brain problems and need kidney dialysis or help with their breathing. They were also more likely to die of their complications.

Dr Simpson said: "They haven't taken the sort of single-moment, one-off massive overdoses taken by people who try to commit suicide, but over time the damage builds up, and the effect can be fatal."

Professor Roger Knaggs of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society said patients should heed the warning.

"If people experience pain and paracetamol doesn't help, rather than thinking a 'top up' dose may work, they should consult their pharmacist for alternative pain control or referral to someone who can help with the cause of the pain.

"The message is clear: if you take more paracetamol than is recommended, you won't improve your pain control but you may seriously damage your health.

"At this time of year people should also take care with combination cold and flu products which may have paracetamol as one of the ingredients. It's easy to take more than intended, so if in doubt consult your pharmacist."

Meanwhile, researchers at King's College London and Lund University in Sweden say they have discovered precisely how paracetamol works in the body. It is via a protein on nerve cells called TRPA1, says Nature Communications.

Now that they understand this principal mechanism, scientists can start to look for molecules that work in the same way to effectively relieve pain, but are less toxic and will not lead to serious complications following overdose.


I printed that out and took it in to the doctors and again asked if they were saying that 8 panadine fortes a day for 3 years came with zero risk and guess what ? I came away with a script for straight codeine 30's with nothing added.

I have been on just these for pain relief for about 3 months now and not only do they seem to work heaps better (I only need half the amount I was taking before so I take 2 x30mg for pain relief instead of 4 to 6 x the fortes.

Also the effects come on much much faster, you can tell as soon as they hit your taste buds before you wash them down with water that they are much more soluble than the fortes, I did a few CWE's before to try and take out the paracetamol myself and the CWE liquid tasted foul, and with the straight codeine you really get that acrid strong bitter codeine taste, I never got that taste on the fortes.

So if you are on long term script for chronic pain and want to get your Dr to reconsider giving you a script for straight codeine printing this article out and taking it in to show them may help you out.

I feel much better about the whole pain killer problem now and feel much healthier and cleaner than when I was taking the bloody fortes.

Hope this is useful to someone.
 
^ thanks kevin, that's some good harm reduction work - whether it is for us (in posting that) for yourself (in having enough sense to do some research about the potential effects on your body) or for the other patients your doctors treat.
 
''than theres the codeine. not exactly good for ya health.''

What do you base this comment on.
I have taken codeine on a daily basis for over 10 years,recent tests confirm i have no sad health effects at all.I have spoken to 4 pharmacists , they all indicated there is no harm to your health at all related to long term use.Of course not talking about od and dangerous use, but proper regime.Even the constipation that some people do endure, is a temporary symptom and stops when codeine stops.
If you know of 1 real, long term symptom that persists beyond ceasation let me know.
 
NSAIDs (ibuprofen) are a leading cause of gastric and duodenal ulcers in Australia. This article is american but I included it because it explains the toxicology. http://rtpr.com/manage/blog/ibuprofen-linked-ulcers-nsaids-side-effects

Ibuprofen is linked to essential hypertension at the regular recommended dose.

Ibuprofen 'trebles the risk of a stroke' as doctors warn over dangers of long-term use
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...s-risk-stroke-doctors-warn.html#ixzz1jGw6z5wM


Renal tubular acidosis is linked to Ibuprofen at the regular recommended dose. Have a look at the SAB thread on it. http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27287

The FDA's ibuprofen warning.
BOXED WARNING
Cardiovascular Risk
NSAIDs may cause an increased risk of serious cardiovascular thrombotic events, myocardial infarction, and stroke, which can be fatal. This risk may increase with duration of use. Patients with cardiovascular disease or risk factors for cardiovascular disease may be at greater risk (see WARNINGS).
Ibuprofen tablets are contraindicated for treatment of peri-operative pain in the setting of coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery (see WARNINGS).
Gastrointestinal Risk
NSAIDS cause an increased risk of serious gastrointestinal adverse events including bleeding, ulceration, and perforation of the stomach or intestines, which can be fatal. These events can occur at any time during use and without warning symptoms. Elderly patients are at greater risk for serious gastrointestinal events (see WARNINGS).

I have a few pdf files of some of the actually journal article behind these stories but I can't work out how to up load them.
 
I thought you were replying to this: ''than theres the codeine. not exactly good for ya health.''
 
Sonny Jim are you really this unable to stick to the topic YOU raised.
No one has disputed quantities of ibuprofen/para is bad for your health.But you came out all guns blazing about CWE .Now you post about the dangers of ibuprofen.Can you even see that.
Where are the links to back up your savage posts about the evil that is CWE? There arent any.Does that tell you anything?

I am now thinking that your motivation must be, that you are so pissed people are talking about cwe and poppy and this will hasten further restrictions on the sale of these. So you are engaging in a 1 man smear campaign , directed at cwe and poppy, in the hope you will scare buyers away from buying the goods, in a vain attempt to halt restrictions, due to slow sales.So you are able to indulge and not have to worry about more restrictions for yourself.You believe you can do that dont you?

Whatever the truth, you have confirmed you are not able to stick to your own subject or post anything in support of that subject.Instead you keep changing the subject of your hate.

I wont waste anymore time on you, its clear you are not up to normal debate.
Good luck to you

Competent cwe is not dangerous.But you know that , dont you sonnny bill.
 
^ have you got anything to add? anything constructive to contribute?
or are you just going to criticise the same person on every post you make?
 
Anon, I added the solubilities of both ibu and paracetamol a few pages back, at 0, 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25 degrees celcius water.

The solubility of paracetamol is 9.44mg per ml of water at 10 degrees celcius. So for a 40 tab extraction, if you're using the common method of using 2mls water per pill, you've got 80mls of water. At 9.44mg paracetamol dissolving per ml of water, you'd expect to be left with 755.2mg of dissolved paracetamol in your final extraction. That's just about 1 and a half tablets, which is well within the recommended dosing of paracetamol. Any amount of paracetamol still does work your liver, and it is wise to give it a break, but that is a fairly safe level. Of course this doesn't include any undissolved paracetamol coming through the filter, which means it is important to try and get your cdub as clear as possible.

Source here (with paracetamol solubility in 0, 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25 degrees celcius water too)

Solubility of ibuprofen in water at 25 degrees ceclius is <1mg/ml.
 
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