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Circumcision

^ you're lucky then. I've read a lot of feedback from circumcized males expressing their anger at the fact that they didn't have a say in such a delicate matter. What is done to one's body for (mostly) cosmetic purposes has to be that and only that person's informed/consensual decision IMO. I'm glad that routine infant circumcision is not a thing in our neck of the woods.
 
I agree it should be a person's decision. I of course have nothing to compare it to, never having had foreskin, but sex is certainly fully pleasurable for me. Plus most women I've met find circumcized penises more attractive. Or, at least in America where most people get circumcized. Also there are less potential smell issues.

But yeah the fact that there is no choice is pretty wrong. I'm not sure anyone would willingly do it as an adult. Seems like it would really suck.
 
The rationale behind doing it to infants is that it's way worse to get it done as an adult, which is true. Most men who get it done as adults say it's hell which is why they have it done to their sons at birth. I'm not saying it's not painful for babies, but consider that an adolescent or adult penis has thicker skin and more active sexual properties like erections. Imagine getting hard when the foreskin wound is still healing?? Also the scars on an infant heal more over time because they are still growing. I think adult scars are more complicated.

As for sensitivity, it's debatable. The only people qualified to say anything about that are men who have been circumcised and can compare the sexual differences. I've heard mixed results. It also depends on how tight the circumcision is and the general technique.

The consent thing... I understand why some people have problems with it. Consider though the other things we do to children for cosmetic reasons, like having their mouths reconstructed with teeth pulling and braces. I hated, hated, hated having braces and visiting the orthodontist. I screamed at my parents, told them I hated them, and at one point even tried to pull my own braces off. But I had no say. As an adult I am thankful for having straight teeth because we live in such a vain society, and looking back at my 7 year old self my mouth was a train wreck.

I remember in one appointment my orthodontist pulled out a tooth right on the spot, no mouth freezing or anything. I was 9 years old. I complained later to everyone but nobody seemed to care because it was "part of the process".

I would much rather go through circumcision again than go through 4 years of braces, retainers and headgear. Fuck!
 
I disagree, Foreigner. You're making the assumption that a cut penis is aesthetically better than an uncut one, which may not be the case all the time. A lot of people prefer the natural look and feel. The same doesn't apply to bad teeth - almost everybody prefers correctly shaped teeth to the "trainwreck" variant. So it's understandable why parents or society in general would force adolescents to wear braces and such to fix their teeth, even if it's against their will - it's almost inevitably going to result in better quality of life for them later on in life regardless of their feelings at the time. The same cannot be said for circumcision, however! Some may grow up to like their cut dick, some may come to despise it and develop severe psychological issues as a result. That's why I think the decision should be left up to the person when they are grown up enough to decide. If they want to have their dick cut so much, then surely they will be ready to go through the pain.

That's how I see it anyway. Maybe I'm wrong?
 
Foreigner, I don't know if it is really true that the procedure would be less painful for a baby than for an adult. But even if that's true, wouldn't the traumatic nature of experiencing pain without consent and without understanding what's the point of it tip the scales towards it being at least evened out, if not actually worse than circumcision of adults? People seem to think the fact that the baby will not consciously remember it, makes it somehow ok, but I think needless suffering should be avoided regardless.

The point you raise about braces and such is a really good one and I haven't really thought about it like that. My first reaction would be that it is basically the same problem and I don't think it is defendable forcing it onto a child for purely cosmetic reasons. But when it comes to that I don't think it is as clear cut as the circumcision issue because often there are legitimate medical concerns that are at least part of the reasoning. Also at that age, while your parents still decide for you, it is possible to object and so there is at least the possibilty that parents will adequately adress their child's concerns. It seems to me that parents who let their baby be circumcised are (not necessarly conciously) trying to rob their child of any chance to even voice objection, because it's so much easier not having to deal with that.

Most of you are Americans right? Do doctors and parents really openly admit that it is done mostly for cosmetic reasons? I thought it was still "officially" done because of alleged health/hygiene benefits, which I always assumed was because people feel very uncomfortable admitting that it might only be done for cosmetic reasons. Here in Germany it seems that if it is done, it is almost always for religious reasons, which brings it's own challenges when trying to oppose the practice of course.
 
Who gives a fuck what doctors think, as a parent I was paying and I did it purely for cosmetic reasons. Zero fucks given to any one else opinion.

I'm sure there will be at least 50 reasons why my son complains that I have fucked up his life, but removing his foreskin won't even rate in the top ten.

I took the day off, he was numbed with emla patches, a ligature was tied around the foreskin and within 3 days it fell off. No blood, no scalpel, no crying, no worries.

We sat and watched the Test cricket together while sharing a beer (well, he was driving so he stuck with breast milk, expressed earlier that day), and fell asleep as normal for our afternoon naps.

Now he has a penis of a mighty warrior and the knowledge of cricket pitch curation unsurpassed by mere mortals.
 
It is not natural, it is child mutilation. The foreskin contains the biggest concentration of sense-, and pressure sensitive nerve endings of any part of the male body, it also contains glands that excrete natural and very essential clean sebum oil that is antibacterial, antifungal and also contains cancer-fighting fluid concentrations that specifically protect against bladder-, urethral- and testicular cancers. Fuck anyone who says it is cleaner or protects against AIDS, hahahaha, lekker Jacob Zuma intellectualism going on here... Oh my sweet Jesus on a stick, just fucking bath once a day and pull the fucking skin back and wash it. It also desensitizes the head, being out in the open rubbing against tight underpants the whole day, that sensitivity is decreased and thusly less sexual gratification achieved. Also it is just logical that the skin protects the head and urethral entrance from dirty air, water, surfaces etc. Poes it doesn't take 6 nerve endings to figure that out. Male circumcision is akin to female circumcision practices which is totally torturous and barbaric. The North-African practice to ensure virginity for marriage of sewing the entire vagina shut before the age of 6, whilst fully conscious and without any analgesic applications or the blessing of anaesthesia, using a blunt needle and dirty cotton rope blends leaving only a centimeter whide slit for urination. This causes life-long problems with infection, period problems and not to mention how it must fucking hurt. Also in Yemen and Sudan they cut of the clitoris at birth to ensure coitus is for reproduction only, no pleasure for a women during sex EVER. Jesus, Here, God. Stop mutilating children, you are born with it for a reason. If you are born with an extra finger or a malignant growth then of course cut it off. But fuck people, leave what should be there and what has been there for a reason since the dawn of mammalian bipedal humanoids.
 
If for instance the skin is naturally too tight and the shaft cannot protrude naturally then yes, male circumcision is fine. But this is the only and the very only reason I can ontologically come the conclusion for it being necessary at all, EVER.
 
^Come on, is that kind of tone really necessary?

One Thousand Words said:
Who gives a fuck what doctors think, as a parent I was paying and I did it purely for cosmetic reasons.
Click to expand...
I certainly do give a fuck, if doctors claim medical benefits that have afaik been debunked and through that persuade parents that maybe wouldn't have agreed to the procedure otherwise.

One Thousand Words said:
Zero fucks given to any one else opinion.
Click to expand...

So I assume that means including your son, yes? Charming...
 
JK25 said:
If for instance the skin is naturally too tight and the shaft cannot protrude naturally then yes, male circumcision is fine. But this is the only and the very only reason I can ontologically come the conclusion for it being necessary at all, EVER.
Click to expand...
Yea, nah mate, that can be fixed without circumcision in some cases even without surgery.

I'm glad to live on a civilised continent where a man can decide about his own dick.
 
Durzo1258 said:
Yea, nah mate, that can be fixed without circumcision in some cases even without surgery.

I'm glad to live on a civilised continent where a man can decide about his own dick.
Click to expand...


Hi Durzo1258

I agree.
 
There's a whole community of men trying to regrow their foreskins. Not for aesthetic reasons, but because the removal of up to 40,000 nerve endings in the foreskin destroyed their sexual enjoyment.

Of course if you were circumcised while young, you'd have no idea what you're missing, and so are open to perpetuating this ridiculous practice out of tradition.

Fortunately in the UK, the introduction of the NHS in 1948 put an end to this genital mutilation for most men. However because the US has a private 'healthcare system', there's still a profit incentive to chop bits of penis off.
 
tokezu said:
^Come on, is that kind of tone really necessary?


I certainly do give a fuck, if doctors claim medical benefits that have afaik been debunked and through that persuade parents that maybe wouldn't have agreed to the procedure otherwise.



So I assume that means including your son, yes? Charming...
Click to expand...
Pleas show me where the research has debunked the health benefits of circumcism.

Only last month another study in Australia came to the consensus that it does indeed reduce the risk of disease.

I couldn't care about that. It looks better, 9/10 blow jobs agree
 
One Thousand Words said:
Who gives a fuck what doctors think, as a parent I was paying and I did it purely for cosmetic reasons. Zero fucks given to any one else opinion.

I'm sure there will be at least 50 reasons why my son complains that I have fucked up his life, but removing his foreskin won't even rate in the top ten.

I took the day off, he was numbed with emla patches, a ligature was tied around the foreskin and within 3 days it fell off. No blood, no scalpel, no crying, no worries.

We sat and watched the Test cricket together while sharing a beer (well, he was driving so he stuck with breast milk, expressed earlier that day), and fell asleep as normal for our afternoon naps.

Now he has a penis of a mighty warrior and the knowledge of cricket pitch curation unsurpassed by mere mortals.
Click to expand...


Wow, the intake your post affected me man, physically, it actually caused temporary vasoconstriction of the primary blood vessels that supply my brain with oxygen and my pre-frontal cortex started to feel numb and I could feel my overall higher functions of reasoning and logic stop dead and was replaced with the urge to grunt loudly, and shit copiously and profusely at my front door to assert dominance. Then the urge to go out and explore was heavy so I passed out from the sheer lack of normal higher mammalian consciousness. Seriously I could feel only my reptilian brain working with the very oldest the most primal of basic instincts. Food, shelter and reproduction was all I could think about untill I logged off this thread and forgot what I read. I actually experienced what mental retardation would feel like. Oh my soul it was so bad.
 
One Thousand Words, just one example.
An article endorsed by thirty-two professionals questions the results of three highly publicized African circumcision studies. The studies claim that circumcision reduces HIV transmission, and they are being used to promote circumcisions. Substantial evidence in this article refutes the claim of the studies.
Examples in the article include the following:

  1. Circumcision is associated with increased transmission of HIV to women.
  2. Conditions for the studies were unlike conditions found in real-world settings.
  3. Other studies show that male circumcision is not associated with reduced HIV transmission.
  4. The U.S. has a high rate of HIV infection and a high rate of circumcision. Other countries have low rates of circumcision and low rates of HIV infection.
  5. Condoms are 95 times more cost effective in preventing HIV transmission.
  6. Circumcision removes healthy, functioning, unique tissue, raising ethical considerations.
Green, L. et al., "Male Circumcision and HIV Prevention: Insufficient Evidence and Neglected External Validity," American Journal of Preventive Medicine 39 (2010): 479-82.
Click to expand...
From here.

And it's not simply a question of could there be the slightest advantage, but also whether a possible advantage would be great enough to warrant such an invasive procedure.

But since for you it's just about aesthetics, would you say other surgical interventions on babies for purely aesthetic reasons should be allowed too or is circumcision (only of boys I presume?) a special case?
 
Pin their ears, fracture the palatial sutures to widen their maxilla, orthognatic surgery to fracture their mandible and and advance their lower jaw, cleft lips, extraction of teeth. I perform these daily purely for cosmetic reason.

The study you cited is over 8 yr old, an eternity in the medical community

Here is one from last year
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/pa...n/news-story/c47339e787d393e247777ab3b543ff5c
 
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tokezu said:
Foreigner, I don't know if it is really true that the procedure would be less painful for a baby than for an adult. But even if that's true, wouldn't the traumatic nature of experiencing pain without consent and without understanding what's the point of it tip the scales towards it being at least evened out, if not actually worse than circumcision of adults? People seem to think the fact that the baby will not consciously remember it, makes it somehow ok, but I think needless suffering should be avoided regardless.

The point you raise about braces and such is a really good one and I haven't really thought about it like that. My first reaction would be that it is basically the same problem and I don't think it is defendable forcing it onto a child for purely cosmetic reasons. But when it comes to that I don't think it is as clear cut as the circumcision issue because often there are legitimate medical concerns that are at least part of the reasoning. Also at that age, while your parents still decide for you, it is possible to object and so there is at least the possibilty that parents will adequately adress their child's concerns. It seems to me that parents who let their baby be circumcised are (not necessarly conciously) trying to rob their child of any chance to even voice objection, because it's so much easier not having to deal with that.

Most of you are Americans right? Do doctors and parents really openly admit that it is done mostly for cosmetic reasons? I thought it was still "officially" done because of alleged health/hygiene benefits, which I always assumed was because people feel very uncomfortable admitting that it might only be done for cosmetic reasons. Here in Germany it seems that if it is done, it is almost always for religious reasons, which brings it's own challenges when trying to oppose the practice of course.
Click to expand...

The same is true of a lot of medical procedures though. Parents make decisions that override the wishes of the children because it's for some perceivable net benefit. So really we should be examining whether or not circumcision is "medically necessary" rather than arguing about consent. My parents had my tonsils removed when I was 8 years old because of recurrent infections. As a holistic health practitioner I deeply regret this because the tonsils are a first line of defense which prevent the lungs from getting immediately infected by pathogens. But that's because I know how to treat infections that modern medicine can't. My parents didn't know that though and they were acting in my best interest... and so I lost a body part that I might've actually needed.

If a child's consent is required for all medical actions then children will die. They are not fully developed enough to understand the full consequences of their choices. It's also why children can't legally consent to sex. It doesn't matter how cognizant we think they are, they don't always know what's best.

My parents got me circumcised because my dad wanted it that way due to his experiences with hygiene and recurring infections. It was also on the advice of the doctor at the time. Back then it was covered under public health care and it was fairly routine. I'm not trying to sidestep the barbarity or anything, just pointing out that medical protocols change over time. At one point men were not allowed in to watch their children being born, and babies were removed from the mothers right away, sometimes for a full day, before the mother was allowed to give the first milk. Then they had to discover that the bonding that happens right after vaginal birth is extremely important to normal development.

There was a point when I felt crappy about being circumcised, but there's nothing I can do about it now. I also highly doubt the universalized claims that circumcised men feel less during sex. I've visited online communities with adult men who got cut as adults and they have mixed reports. Some say they feel less, some say no change, some say they actually feel a lot more. It depends on the person. Pleasure is a complicated thing and you can't boil it all down to nerve endings. Our perception of pleasure is also informed by our complex upbringings, personal experiences, traumas, etc. Some people experience pain as pleasure, hence we have the S&M community, while others like myself experience pain as pain. It takes all kinds.
 
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