Benzos Chronic (therapeutic) benzo use vs chronic Alcohol use

[Mycophile]

@Mr. Deeds also, as far as this quote "You were one of the lucky ones especially for your length of use", at least according to the doctors at the hospital, the severity of the symptoms of WD are NOT increased by how long one has been on a benzo, but just the dosage you were on, so long as you were taking it every single day or almost every day so that it was never really out of the bloodstream, which I was.

I don't know for sure if they are right, but that's what they said and they are doctors after all, and there was a poster before in this thread who confirmed that this is true with some kind of study about how once the blood plasma levels reach a certain point the symptoms of WD are the same regardless of length of usage and that their severity is based almost exclusively on the dosage one was taking and not the length of usage.

The doctors were very insistent that that was the case at the hospital, and that only a few months of using 3mgs would have been much worse than many years of using 1.5mgs, so I tend to believe them.

BUT...I was still very lucky.

Hopefully if I ever am able to get off them again I'll be that lucky a 2nd time...
"

 

[Sertürner]

@Mycophile you pose a good point. I cannot be 100% sure that is was WD. I think my message came across wrong. I meant to state that I am 100% sure that your brain had to adjust to not taking benzos anymore. Whether or not you had psychical or psychological symptoms of this happening is up for debate. It could very well be that your social anxiety was just returned because you stopped taking the meds that alleviated that issue.

 

[Mycophile]

@Mycophile you pose a good point. I cannot be 100% sure that is was WD. I think my message came across wrong. I meant to state that I am 100% sure that your brain had to adjust to not taking benzos anymore. Whether or not you had psychical or psychological symptoms of this happening is up for debate. It could very well be that your social anxiety was just returned because you stopped taking the meds that alleviated that issue.

Yeah. I mean obviously there's no way that WD is not going to happen at all.

In some way it is going to be going on in your brain and body, but how much of it is noticeable or problematic is a different question, and as mentioned, if these doctors are right then length of use is not really a factor and only dosage used and the fact that it was used every day.

Being objective, it would probably be safe to assume that WD could have been SOME kind of a factor in the anxiety, but because it was literally THE ONLY after effect of any kind that I had, I tend to think that the anxiety was at least 80% just the return of the same symptoms and not so much, if at all, a WD symptom.

It's kind of weird cause I say that the idea it could have been more about WD that would have temporarily gone away bothers me cause maybe I could have succeeded in staying off it permanently had I toughed it out longer, but in reality I should be hoping that the return of the anxiety was mostly a WD symptom that would have subsided because that would mean that if I am able to get off it again and just resist getting back on it for longer than my anxiety won't return, but truth is I don't think that's the case.

I think that unfortunately it would have returned and continued regardless because it was probably primarily, if not entirely, just the same old anxiety returning.

But one thing I think is that if I can completely quit coffee and all stimulants, or AT LEAST NEVER have more than one cup of coffee a day, and exercise regularly, that I bet that if I was able to get off the Klonopin again that the anxiety wouldn't return with such full force, or at least that I'd need a lower dose to keep it at bay.

I know for a fact that caffeine, especially the very large amounts I drink (It used to be MUCH worse, now I only drink 3-4 cups a day but used to drink 6--8 ) GREATLY exacerbates my anxiety.

There was a time I got down to 1 cup a day and was exercising a lot and only needed 0.5mgs and if I could do that again and really keep up a period of like 6 months of not needing more Klonopin than that then that would be amazing.

I don't know why it's so damn hard to quit coffee lol.

Actually, one reason is the Klonopin itself cause it makes me tired and then I drink more coffee, but then I need more Klonopin so that's no good.

I really have a love/hate relationship with coffee: it's helpful to have a cup or two a day, but more than that is never good for me.

I wish I'd never started drinking it in the first place.

 

[Sertürner]

@Mycophile I have heard numerous people say length of use doesnt matter after a certain point. I need to do some research on this because I have always been under the impression that it did matter. Would you be able to throw a paper my way so I can read up on it?

And switch to decaf or cut your caffeinated coffee with decaf mid-day and stick to decaf only at night. This method has helped me tremendously. I have the same addiction to coffee as well.

 

[Mycophile]

@Mycophile I have heard numerous people say length of use doesnt matter after a certain point. I need to do some research on this because I have always been under the impression that it did matter. Would you be able to throw a paper my way so I can read up on it?

I don't have any studies to back it up, nor have I read any that support that idea or contend it, I only heard it from the doctors and there's also one other guy in this thread who said it.

I mean, to me it would totally have seemed like using longer would make it a bigger problem but they said it didn't.

In some ways I guess the idea isn't that crazy.

I mean, with most substances the more often one uses it the more one's tolerance will increase, but at the same time with most drugs if one NEVER increases the dose then their tolerance will still stay pretty much the same, and hence, if they quit then they might not experience more WD only based on length of usage.

Like, I was talking about coffee cause I drink so damn much of it, so like, if someone has been drinking only 1 cup of coffee a day for 15 years, you'd expect them to have a tolerance and WD upon quitting, but if they literally NEVER drink more than that one cup, then having a 2nd will still hit them hard, and quitting will probably not be harder than someone who had been drinking 2 cups a day, but only for 1 year.

I don't know, frankly, with almost anything other than Klonopin the idea of NEVER raising dosage of a drug is crazy to me, but I never want to raise my Klonopin dosage cause it's not recreational so I have no reason to want to.

Like my uncle is one of these guys who's CRAZY good at moderation, but unfortunately I don't have his genes I guess haha.

The guy has been drinking EXACTLY one glass of wine every single night for like 40 years, and he NEVER has more or gets drunk.

That perplexes me WAY more than someone who doesn't drink at all.

I digress....but yeah, I don't have any links or info on it it and only have heard it's true cause of what the doctors said.

 

[Mycophile]

@Mr.Deeds: This was what BzCurio said in post #17 from page 1.

Sounds like he's studied it the way he talks about no links are provided:



"This is the case, but not at the timescale you are thinking of.

In pharmacokinetics, steady state is when a drug reaches blood peak, it takes about 4x Half lives to reach this. The 6 months vs 5 years example is irrelevant as blood peak due to metabolites for a long acting benzo such as Klonopin would be reached in (40h x4) 160 hours, which to round up is 7 days. Steady state does not mean dependence. Dependence onset would still be about 3 weeks of daily dosing. In reality someone using for 1.5m will be as depending as a 5 year user.

But you raise another point, IF the dose is raised then the severity of withdrawal will as well. That would be time independent though, as you could hit the ground running abusing 4mg of Klonopin and again I don't think anyone would disagree that 1.5 months of daily dosing 4mg will become a problem."

 

[freesolo123]

That is a VERY high dose.

May I ask you why you were prescribed that much and if lower doses were not effective?

I've never heard of that much being prescribed so I am guessing it was recreational but I could be wrong.

I have been on 1.5mgs for 15 years (I was off for 9 months but needed to get back on for anxiety) and have never needed to raise my dose and often less than that works for anxiety.

I was also able to get off of it for 9 months and basically had no real taper at all because the doctors fucked up, and while I know that I am an unusual case I had ZERO withdrawal.

But the kinds of doses you were using are really just WAY WAY too high so no wonder it was so bad.

I think that benzos, especially long acting ones like Klonopin, are not that dangerous if used under medical supervision, but it is true that the withdrawal can be deadly at high doses, and I was told by a doctor at the hospital when I withdraw that I was not at risk of death withdrawing off of 1.5mgs but that death from sudden withdrawal-cold turkey does start to become a risk at 4mgs so at 6mgs you were definitely in a situation where if you were to quit cold turkey death or at least massive grand mal seizures would be a real possibility.

IMO Klonopin has really helped me a lot, but you have to be careful and that dose is REALLY REALLY high.

Glad you are ok.

It was self administered for my anxiety & panic attacks which left me unable to do normal daily activities like work and socialize, nothing was working and I had tried Diazepam for my panic attacks which stopped them every time, These drugs are great for people like me and I got back to normal even gained some confidence but its a slippery slope. Eventually I upped the dose over a year from 2mg to 6mg any higher was a waste IMO.

I knew from the start what I was getting myself in for but just wanted to feel normal again so sacrificed my future for a few good years. Stupid really but I haven't touched benzo's in about a year but struggle with other drugs, amazingly I still show a faint line on a drug test for Benzos after 12 month, its a negative but the test still reads traces in my urine.

 

[BzCurio]

@Mycophile
I can guarantee you had some degree of WD, but it didnt sound very bad luckily. You were one of the lucky ones especially for your length of use. The delayed onset of anxiety sounds like it might have been post acute withdrawal syndrome "PAWS". After the 3 month mark of abstinence of most drugs especially opiates and benzos, there tends to be a series of psychological withdrawal symptoms such as anxiety and insomnia and depression. These symptoms usually last around 3-6 months but in some individuals they can persist for ove a year. I havent looked into PAWS too much, but my thought is that the brain is repairing itself slowly. After the acute WD is over, your brain is still chemically imbalanced and PAWS is the process of the brain regaining it's natural chemical balance without the drug.

Speaking only from my knowledge of Klonopin, PAWS begins after 4 days.

In my case I've done the routine. Therapy (dismissed, citing 'exceptional coping skills' [duh, 23 years unmedicated]), other meds, the whole carousel of bullshit. There was nothing left for me in terms of anxiety and Klonopin was the final plug for that hole and pretty much gave me a life.

I think in many cases we have this:

1. Someone who did not need benzos experiences PAWS anxiety
2. Person then goes on to tell others that their anxiety returning may just be PAWS

In many cases 'person' may have just forgotten how bad their anxiety truly was. People do not understand the severity of something like agoraphobia. I'm at a point in my life where if you went back in time and took my therapeutic script from me I would lose huge milestones that normal people do not struggle with.

It is sad honestly, some people cannot see both sides of the coin.

 

[BzCurio]

@Mycophile I have heard numerous people say length of use doesnt matter after a certain point. I need to do some research on this because I have always been under the impression that it did matter. Would you be able to throw a paper my way so I can read up on it?

Not to be an ass, but a study proving time correlates with withdrawal severity (absent of dose increases) would be needed first. From a physiological standpoint your mind really would not care about the difference of 3 steady weeks and 3 steady years.

I restate:

In pharmacokinetics, steady state is when a drug reaches blood peak, it takes about 4x Half lives to reach this. Blood peak due to metabolites for a long acting benzo such as Klonopin would be reached in (40h x4) 160 hours, which to round up is 7 days. Steady state does not mean dependence. Dependence onset would still be about 3 weeks of daily dosing. In reality someone using for 1.5m will be as dependent as a 5 year user.

I think a fair comparison here is an SSRI, while having withdrawals they aren't dangerous. You do not have worse withdrawals the longer you use them, only when you climb in dose.

 

[Sertürner]

Not to be an ass, but a study proving time correlates with withdrawal severity (absent of dose increases) would be needed first. From a physiological standpoint your mind really would not care about the difference of 3 steady weeks and 3 steady years.

I restate:

In pharmacokinetics, steady state is when a drug reaches blood peak, it takes about 4x Half lives to reach this. Blood peak due to metabolites for a long acting benzo such as Klonopin would be reached in (40h x4) 160 hours, which to round up is 7 days. Steady state does not mean dependence. Dependence onset would still be about 3 weeks of daily dosing. In reality someone using for 1.5m will be as dependent as a 5 year user.

I think a fair comparison here is an SSRI, while having withdrawals they aren't dangerous. You do not have worse withdrawals the longer you use them, only when you climb in dose.

I don't think your being an ass, that does make sense. Peak blood levels are maintained at a steady rate according to dose and how long it takes for the drug to leave the body aka half-life. I dont know why this has slipped my mind. I appreciate the info from you and @Mycophile

 

[Sertürner]

Speaking only from my knowledge of Klonopin, PAWS begins after 4 days.

In my case I've done the routine. Therapy (dismissed, citing 'exceptional coping skills' [duh, 23 years unmedicated]), other meds, the whole carousel of bullshit. There was nothing left for me in terms of anxiety and Klonopin was the final plug for that hole and pretty much gave me a life.

I think in many cases we have this:

1. Someone who did not need benzos experiences PAWS anxiety
2. Person then goes on to tell others that their anxiety returning may just be PAWS

In many cases 'person' may have just forgotten how bad their anxiety truly was. People do not understand the severity of something like agoraphobia. I'm at a point in my life where if you went back in time and took my therapeutic script from me I would lose huge milestones that normal people do not struggle with.

It is sad honestly, some people cannot see both sides of the coin.

PAWS will not begin until acute WD is coming to an end. Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms/ Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome.

 

[BzCurio]

PAWS will not begin until acute WD is coming to an end. Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms/ Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome.

Oops, had it slightly wrong:

PAWS begins in about 4-5 half lives, which is roughly 6-9 days. Acute, for me at least, hits on about 3-4 days (mixed it up with HL's).

 

[Mycophile]

PAWS will not begin until acute WD is coming to an end. Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms/ Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome.

Yeah I know, and like I said, even though I know my brain and body obviously did go through acute WD on some level, I never experienced any symptoms.

I was very lucky.

 

[Mycophile]

It was self administered for my anxiety & panic attacks which left me unable to do normal daily activities like work and socialize, nothing was working and I had tried Diazepam for my panic attacks which stopped them every time, These drugs are great for people like me and I got back to normal even gained some confidence but its a slippery slope. Eventually I upped the dose over a year from 2mg to 6mg any higher was a waste IMO.

I knew from the start what I was getting myself in for but just wanted to feel normal again so sacrificed my future for a few good years. Stupid really but I haven't touched benzo's in about a year but struggle with other drugs, amazingly I still show a faint line on a drug test for Benzos after 12 month, its a negative but the test still reads traces in my urine.

Yeah, I also have anxiety and take Klonopin and it has helped me a lot even though it has some negative side effects, but I only take 1.5mgs a day.

I guess for some reason you felt you couldn't get it prescribed by a psychiatrist so you just got it on the street?

That's the probably with self medicating: you don't know what dose is safe or have anyone to tell you, but you can go on sites like this to learn about it and if you had told anyone here you were thinking of taking anything more than like 3mgs a day MAX people would have told you not to I'm sure.

I was thinking I have never heard of any doctor prescribing more than 4mgs and that is even a really high dose and I don't think doctors do prescribe 6mgs.

I don't know why you thought you needed that much as my anxiety has responded to 1.5mgs for 15 years now, even though I wish I didn't need it and would like to stop if possible, and that everyone is always telling me how bad it is I've been on it so long, I've still never needed more than 1.5mgs for my anxiety.

If you are going to self medicate with any drug, (and I'm not against self-medicating if necessary as I believe everyone should have the right to put what they want in their bodies) it is obviously very important to know how to do it in the safest manner possible, and with benzos it's more important than with most drugs cause of how addictive they are the fact that withdrawing from a dose as high as what you took can actually kill you.

If you had just stuck to a lower dose you could have been generally ok like I am.

Has your anxiety come back since you quit or are you managing ok without the Klonopin?

 

[Mycophile]

Speaking only from my knowledge of Klonopin, PAWS begins after 4 days.

In my case I've done the routine. Therapy (dismissed, citing 'exceptional coping skills' [duh, 23 years unmedicated]), other meds, the whole carousel of bullshit. There was nothing left for me in terms of anxiety and Klonopin was the final plug for that hole and pretty much gave me a life.

I think in many cases we have this:

1. Someone who did not need benzos experiences PAWS anxiety
2. Person then goes on to tell others that their anxiety returning may just be PAWS

In many cases 'person' may have just forgotten how bad their anxiety truly was. People do not understand the severity of something like agoraphobia. I'm at a point in my life where if you went back in time and took my therapeutic script from me I would lose huge milestones that normal people do not struggle with.

It is sad honestly, some people cannot see both sides of the coin.

Yeah, I know both sides of the coin as I have also accomplished many things I might not have been able to by taking Klonopin, even though I wish I didn't need it and hope some day I can get off of it.

I bolded the word "returning" cause I think maybe you meant more like "experiencing anxiety" because if they had anxiety in the first place they probably did need benzos, though maybe not if it wasn't that bad.

I definitely did (and unfortunately probably still do...) need Klonopin, and never forgot how bad my anxiety was and didn't want to stop taking it for those 9 months to but was forced to in the way so many people are by being cut off by an asshole doctor who I trusted and not being able to find another doctor for a while. I tried to deal without it and as mentioned, at first my anxiety wasn't too bad for the 1st 2-3 months or so and then around month 3 it came back and lasted till I was able to find another doctor and get back on it after 9 months.

It really does bother me that people are always talking so much about the dangers of benzos when they usually have not had the experience of having the kind of bad anxiety that benzos are prescribed for and don't realize how much severe anxiety can mess with your life and that sometimes a person just doesn't have any other options.

I mean, taking benzos is really like taking any other drug or making any other choice in general in life: you have to way the risks vs the consequences based on your situation considering whatever other options you might have (if you have any) and make a choice for yourself, and for people who have never experienced that kind of severe anxiety (or hell, even people who have...) to tell others who have and who chose to take benzos for it that they are stupid and reckless because of their possible dangers is just REALLY unfair.

I have never used benzos recreationally (I mean I CAN'T cause they don't get me high), I obey the rules given to me by my psychiatrist, and I'm an adult who has made a choice about his own body, and telling people like us we shouldn't be doing it because of the dangers without recognizing our situations or being in our shoes is not right.

I mean, I'm not even going to tell a heroin user they shouldn't be using, but benzos have a real medical usage or else they would not be prescribed and everyone just has to make their own choices.

 

[burn out]

If we are talking about a low dose of benzos every day vs a low dose of alcohol (like one or two drinks) every day then benzos are far worse. If I drink a couple beers every day for a long period and then suddenly stop the worst I experience is anxiety and trouble sleeping for a few days. However coming off extended uses of even low doses of benzos can cause serious and long lasting problems for many people.

 

[Mycophile]

Not to be an ass, but a study proving time correlates with withdrawal severity (absent of dose increases) would be needed first. From a physiological standpoint your mind really would not care about the difference of 3 steady weeks and 3 steady years.

I restate:

In pharmacokinetics, steady state is when a drug reaches blood peak, it takes about 4x Half lives to reach this. Blood peak due to metabolites for a long acting benzo such as Klonopin would be reached in (40h x4) 160 hours, which to round up is 7 days. Steady state does not mean dependence. Dependence onset would still be about 3 weeks of daily dosing. In reality someone using for 1.5m will be as dependent as a 5 year user.

I think a fair comparison here is an SSRI, while having withdrawals they aren't dangerous. You do not have worse withdrawals the longer you use them, only when you climb in dose.

So, I don't know if you read my posts or my history with Klonopin and anxiety, but I have unfortunately been on it a very long time now, about 15 years at 1.5mgs a day (I very rarely go up to 2.5 MAX but sometimes only need 1mg for anxiety and I have never really needed more than 1.5 for my anxiety) , and about 5 years ago, roughly 10 years after being prescribed it, I was cut off by a doctor and wasn't on it for 9 months before I had to get back on due to the same anxiety symptoms as before returning because they were no longer masked by the Klonopin.

The hospital I went to fucked up and really didn't even give me barely any kind of taper, yet SOMEHOW I was extremely lucky and experienced pretty much zero acute physical WD. I remember I only had one day within probably the 1st 2 weeks off it were I felt kind of sick for a few hours and then it passed, and that's literally it (I don't even know if it was WD, could have been something else but probably was a bit).

Then while off it my anxiety didn't really return till about 2-3 months afterwards and then it started up again with the exact same symptoms as before.

I was wondering if you thought that the was mostly or entirely just the same old anxiety returning or if maybe PAWS might have been a factor??

I mean, I don't know, I think it's possible it could have SLIGHTLY been a factor, but that even if it was it was still probably like at least 85% just the same old anxiety returning cause if it was really PAWS I figure I would have had at least ONE other symptom other than just the same anxiety as before, like insomnia or depression or whatever (I had neither and slept BETTER than before and had a better mood too), but it was literally ONLY my anxiety.

The idea it could have been PAWS at first bummed me out cause I thought maybe if I'd toughed it out longer I could have stayed off them and the anxiety may have subsided, then I thought that that really sucks that it probably WAS NOT PAWS cause if it was that would provide more hope that in the future I could get off Klonopin if I toughed it out longer.

Also, do you really believe that people like us who have taken MODERATE MEDICINAL doses of Klonopin for many years are doing some kind of MASSIVE permanent brain damage to ourselves??

Do you think that if we ever try to get off them that they will have actually made our anxiety WORSE than before like some people say, and that we are likely to get alzheimers or memory/cognitive problems?

I know that that stuff CAN happen but from what I have read it is FAR from set in stone that any of it will like some of the benzo-bashers like to say.

Do you think our brain chemistry is really PERMANENTLY altered?

I mean, even though I could assume there might be some kind of long term or permanent change in our brains, that's not necessarily at all the same thing as everyone adamantly insisting that we will DEFINITELY have HORRIBLE long term side effects.


I also had a couple more questions:

1) How long did you say the half-life of Klonopin is, and how long is the full life of it in the blood stream till it's completely gone, and how long do you think a person like me who has been taking 1.5mgs a day for years would need to go without before real acute WD would begin??

I have had times where I ran out and was unable to take it for 2 days (I don't think ever longer than that) and I did not get WD.


2) Do you drink coffee/use caffeine at all, and if so, does it make your anxiety worse and do you think you'd be able to use lower doses of benzos if you didn't consume caffeine/as much caffeine??

I drink way too much and have tried to quit (I have cut my usage in half from what it was before) and I know that it greatly exacerbates my anxiety and that when I drink none or less I need less Klonopin and that is part of my plan on how to reduce my dosage or even eventually taper off, which is to stop drinking coffee or at least not more than 1 cup a day.

I know in the past when I have temporarily quit coffee or at least cut down that I have needed MUCH less Klonopin, sometimes only 0.5mgs a day instead of 1.5.


3) If you were going to try to get off benzos, what would your plan be in terms of how to manage your anxiety off of them?

Do you think any other medications would work for you and would you have other ideas on how to deal with it like reducing stimulants or exercise? (I know both help me)

I really want to at least find a way to cut down, and soon I am going to be looking for a new psychiatrist and trying to find out if there's any other meds that aren't benzos that could help, mainly cause Klonopin makes me tired and I also think maybe increases my depression, so I want something that won't make me tired or depressed.

I also take Lexapro but i don't think it works. Meds that have been suggested include a newer SSRI that one guy on here who had the same kind of anxiety I do said worked for him, which is called Vortioxetine, and also Gabapentin, which while I know it is a Gabergic, for SOME people like my aunt she says it does NOT make her tired most of the time and others on here who have anxiety have successfully switched from Klonopin to Gabapentin and said that Gaba works for their anxiety just as well or better and that it doesn't make them tired like Klonopin did so that sounds promising.


Sorry for this being so long Lol...

Thanks.

 

[Mycophile]

If we are talking about a low dose of benzos every day vs a low dose of alcohol (like one or two drinks) every day then benzos are far worse. If I drink a couple beers every day for a long period and then suddenly stop the worst I experience is anxiety and trouble sleeping for a few days. However coming off extended uses of even low doses of benzos can cause serious and long lasting problems for many people.

Well ok at least the only thing I'll agree on here is that I have drank a shitload of alcohol in my life and for some reason I have never had any kind of alcohol WD, and that's even before I took Klonopin so if somehow the Klonopin was making me have less WD then that wouldn't explain those earlier years before that that I drank a lot.

Then again, if you read my story I am also a big exception cause I've taken 1.5mgs of Klonopin daily for years and when I was cut off cold turkey I got ZERO acute WD but I have no idea why and I was just SUPER lucky.

That being said, just because low doses of benzos regularly are usually more likely to cause WD than low (or in my case even high) amounts of alcohol regularly does not mean overall that benzos are more dangerous.

IMO that is the ONE AND ONLY way that alcohol might be safer than benzos.

Otherwise, alcohol is WAY worse overall for your body, liver, internal organs, causing weight gain or weight loss, can even cause some cancers, and also kills shit tons of brain cells and is very bad for mental health, not to mention that it is also possible to die from abrupt WD from large amounts of booze.

So even if low doses of benzos regularly cause worse WD than low doses of alcohol regularly, there's SOO many other way that alcohol...even relatively low amounts honestly, is worse for your health than benzos that it's not even a contest.

You can also overdose on alcohol (even without mixing it with anything) and lots of people die from alcohol overdoses every year whereas despite popular belief it is actually extremely unlikely one would ever die from a benzo overdose UNLESS you mixed it with another CNS depressant and there have been studies that prove this.

Obviously you need a taper if getting off of benzos, but otherwise, booze is worse for you, even small amounts IMO unless we are like literally talking 2 beers a day or less, and even that will have some kind of small effect on your liver and your weight, etc.

Also, if you are saying that alcohol use is REALLY light and comparing it to REALLY light benzo use then REALLY light benzo use wont give you WD either.

My aunt has a lorazapam prescription but she barely ever needs it and maybe like once or twice a week MAX she will take a very low dose to put her to sleep or for anxiety and she is not addicted/dependent on it and never gets WD if she doesn't have it, so if you go REALLY low with the comparison then you also have people like her who are fine.

 

[BzCurio]

If we are talking about a low dose of benzos every day vs a low dose of alcohol (like one or two drinks) every day then benzos are far worse. If I drink a couple beers every day for a long period and then suddenly stop the worst I experience is anxiety and trouble sleeping for a few days. However coming off extended uses of even low doses of benzos can cause serious and long lasting problems for many people.

Alcohol is known for its seizure-inducing withdrawals and PAWS aswell. It is basically a liquid benzo but it fries the DNA of every organ it travels through on the way down

I was wondering if you thought that the was mostly or entirely just the same old anxiety returning or if maybe PAWS might have been a factor??

Also, do you really believe that people like us who have taken MODERATE MEDICINAL doses of Klonopin for many years are doing some kind of MASSIVE permanent brain damage to ourselves??

Do you think that if we ever try to get off them that they will have actually made our anxiety WORSE than before like some people say, and that we are likely to get alzheimers or memory/cognitive problems?


I also had a couple more questions:

1) How long did you say the half-life of Klonopin is, and how long is the full life of it in the blood stream till it's completely gone, and how long do you think a person like me who has been taking 1.5mgs a day for years would need to go without before real acute WD would begin??

I have had times where I ran out and was unable to take it for 2 days (I don't think ever longer than that) and I did not get WD.


2) Do you drink coffee/use caffeine at all, and if so, does it make your anxiety worse and do you think you'd be able to use lower doses of benzos if you didn't consume caffeine/as much caffeine??

I drink way too much and have tried to quit (I have cut my usage in half from what it was before) and I know that it greatly exacerbates my anxiety and that when I drink none or less I need less Klonopin and that is part of my plan on how to reduce my dosage or even eventually taper off, which is to stop drinking coffee or at least not more than 1 cup a day.

I know in the past when I have temporarily quit coffee or at least cut down that I have needed MUCH less Klonopin, sometimes only 0.5mgs a day instead of 1.5.


3) If you were going to try to get off benzos, what would your plan be in terms of how to manage your anxiety off of them?

Do you think any other medications would work for you and would you have other ideas on how to deal with it like reducing stimulants or exercise? (I know both help me)

I really want to at least find a way to cut down, and soon I am going to be looking for a new psychiatrist and trying to find out if there's any other meds that aren't benzos that could help, mainly cause Klonopin makes me tired and I also think maybe increases my depression, so I want something that won't make me tired or depressed.

I also take Lexapro but i don't think it works. Meds that have been suggested include a newer SSRI that one guy on here who had the same kind of anxiety I do said worked for him, which is called Vortioxetine, and also Gabapentin, which while I know it is a Gabergic, for SOME people like my aunt she says it does NOT make her tired most of the time and others on here who have anxiety have successfully switched from Klonopin to Gabapentin and said that Gaba works for their anxiety just as well or better and that it doesn't make them tired like Klonopin did so that sounds promising.

- I believe your ability to handle your own anxiety at it's peak becomes diminished with long term use. All your natural reactions to mitigate that state or even a panic attack are sort of forgotten. From what I've read about PAWS, it isn't a consistent condition. It comes and goes in waves after long term use but I've generally only see it present in benzo/alcohol abusers.

- Damage? No. Forcing the brain to make changes? Most likely. There is evidence both alcohol and benzos change DNA transcription. However, cited in my first post, there is no literature that exists as of 2012 (and benzos are old) that they ever lose their anxiolytic properties. 'Massive damage' would be an overstatement unless you're taking high doses multiple times a day. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) can cause permanent brain damage and paralysis at high doses, but we don't take those doses.

- I don't doubt the early onset dementia/Alzheimers claims around long term benzo use (as well as alcohol use). In just the short period I've used them my memory has become pretty fragmented even when they're not in my system, but that may also be because I have more responsibilities to keep track of now. But I'll gladly trade 10 years of my older years if it means being happier now.


1. Half life of Klonopin is roughly 30-40 hours. For any drugs it takes about 7x halflifes for it to be undetectable in your blood stream. With that said, at about 3x half life the concentration of the drug is considered negligible. I can last about 3 days with no Klonopin at all before I feel rebound anxiety. I can tell it's the Klonopin as one of the symptoms of anxiety that I rarely get is jaw clenching and neck tensing, and those will present themselves. That's when I play with the dose and see what will get rid of it, in most cases just 0.25mg will ease it. So I keep Klonopin active in my system chronically at a ridiculously low dose (0.12-0.25mg) until a day comes that I need to pull out the full 1-2mg. I see this as better than tapering off entirely because I have no desire to stop taking it.


2. I get about 200mg of caffeine a day, but I am very likely ADHD (was actually just tested for it, but will refuse amphetamines/other dopamine releasing agents) as my afternoon 80mg can nearly put me to sleep. I largely believe my deepest bout of depression stemmed from an attempt to quit caffeine, there are many anecdotal claims of this phenomena.

It can give me anxiety but not in a negative way, it usually ups me and makes me feel motivated and energetic, not an anxious mess.

Caffeine will impact the effectiveness of the benzo if they're both taken at the same time, but if I'm pushing something like 2.5mg and whatever social event I needed it for is over I will drink caffeine to snap me out of the fogginess.

One thing worth mentioning here is caffeine tolerance, ironically, will make benzos work better by increasing the density of benzo binding sites https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437321/

Chronic ingestion of caffeine by male NIH strain mice alters the density of a variety of central receptors...The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased.

3. Same way I always have. Avoid social situations, not attend events, destroy relationships as a result, you probably know the drill.

I have tried Lyrica (Pregabalin) 300mg 2x a day and felt nothing from it. I have been offers a medical card but it will be of no use as (based on prior experiences with various methods) I am a completely non responder to MJ.

I refuse to take SSRI's due to the severe sexual side effects and emotional blunting, and the European Medicines Agency recently put out a mandatory black box warning on all SSRI/SNRI's that these side effects may be permanent. Suspected to be caused by DNA damage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6083487/

 

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A very good chart on half-lives and a look into long term benzo therapy

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1iO0m7J9fPTUvNIq-gI_4N

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