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Cholinergic 'rebound' upon cessation of diphenhydramine?

Jabberwocky

Jabberwocky

Frumious Bandersnatch
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I'm hoping to understand an interesting phenomena I experienced this morning. After about a week of using diphen nightly for sleep (25mg; 25; 50; 50; 75; 75), I took none last night. I had a good night of sleep as per usual, but upon waking, I had incredible energy, i mean realllly great, strong mental and physical energy - i don't want to say it was borderline-mania (the good kind, if that makes sense), but it was very good subjectively and unmistakable.

Unable to think of any variables, save not having taken benadryl to fall asleep last night, I couldn't figure it out - then i remembered that benadryl(diphenhydramine) is actually a potent-enough anticholingeric, and has an 8hr half life. Immediately i figured this feeling i woke with must be some sort of choline 'rebound', for lack of a more precise or scientific term.

Am curious if that's likely what happened?

Further, if so, was the state experienced this morning a "normal" state, that just felt supranormal because of almost a week using something with a long half-life, or was it a level of 'excitement' that was, in fact, stronger than 'baseline' or normal, due to using an anti-cholinergic for a week? (ie, was this morning truly more energy than my body would "normally" have w/o ever having had benadryl, or did it just feel that way subjectively, after a week of dumbing it down?)
/and wow, do i feel like a moron having used an anti-cholinergic, especially an 8hr half life at 75mg, as a sleep-aid. Didn't even consider that aspect until this morning lol.

(and just to be clear, there was no anxiety or 'shakiness', that's what i mean by "good mania"; the feeling was/is what one tends to aim for w/ low-dose amp or with noots, a great energy in the body and a fast mind, but full control over both)
/ if i'm barking up the right tree, I wonder if this experience could be maintained and controlled by noots like huperzine(acetylcholinasterase inhibitor), or choline supplements w/ or w/o piracetam? if so, will def be looking into trying nootropics again ;P
 
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well yes, it is a first generation anti-histamine and, like the rest of them, it strongly antagonizes acetylcholine. I don't think the effects on histamine are what is causing this i'm very convinced it's the cholingeric effects and have found evidence of this online, but wanna verify/be sure..
 
I would think that you were experiencing a minor hangover on mornings after taking DPH... I know that even 25mg DPH will have me groggy in the morning.
 
I fulllly agree that there would anti-cholinergic effects the following morning, and that this morning would have been subjectively "fresh" due to being w/o said hangover. Was just curious if, in addition, there was any possibility of excited/enhanced cholinergic rebound or activity after cessating from a week of an anti-cholinergic
 
Sure, a rebound from consistent use of diphenhydramine is something that's possible.
But at those doses it is far more likely it was less of a "rebound effect" and more related to having a drug-free restful sleep and waking up w/o sedative metabolites in your blood. Most "sleep aids" save for melatonin disrupt sleep architecture in some manner (by changing the amount of REM or deep sleep) and some can actually leave you feeling much less "rested" in the morning.

At low doses DPH is mostly an antihistamine, it doesn't really become an anticholinergic until you hit the hundreds of milligrams a dose. The sedative effects are considered to be caused by central antagonism of histamine H1 receptors.

TL;DR - it's not a choline rebound, you are just experiencing the effects of drug-free sleep.

Side note: Restful sleep, minimizing stress, and healthy diet is about 50 times more effective at improving mental performance than any nootropics you will ever encounter. And avoid playing with AChEI drugs like huperzine, the side effects can be pretty fucking gnarly.
 
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good stuffs, thank you! and my understanding of huperzine/club moss was as you stated - let me ask tho, do you feel the same about the common "choline + piracetam" stack?
 
From my understanding piracetam is pretty much a placebo for healthy people w/o brain damage (or the benefits are mild at best), and pretty much as soon as I see the word "noots" or "stack" my brain shuts off and I stop reading. A lot of the noot people miss the forest for the trees so to speak - and I never hear anyone saying "yeah Piracetam made my life demonstratably better", just people talking about getting headaches and other nonsense. I think worrying about micronutrient supplementation and taking less-documented drugs that interfere with biochemistry is a load of crap and people should be sleeping more, & eating more green vegetables and other balanced dietary sources. Go eat some fried eggs if you want choline.

If you want to spend money on psychostimulants you may well spend it on caffeine or modafinil.

Maybe I'm just a grumpy guy who hates science, too.
 
i agree that none of that stuff is relevant if the basics (food/sleep/etc) are not in-line. But if those things are, then you can benefit IMO.
 
Sekio what about the numerous studies suggesting efficacy? I'm not saying I support either side but to outright dismiss them seems unreasoNable.
 
what about nootropics (of the racetam ilk) which are taken to counter-act the cognitive burden of anti-chollinergic effects brought about by other drugs?
 
It's probably just because you had a proper, healthy night sleep, which you weren't getting because of the diphenhydramine.
 
Aging
Piracetam appears to reverse the effects of aging in the brains of mice.
Piracetam appears to reduce levels of lipofuscin in the rat brain. (Lipofuscin accumulation is a common symptom of aging and alcoholism.)
Alcoholism
Piracetam appears to be effective in treating cognitive impairment in alcoholism.
Alzheimer's and senile dementia
Once thought to be effective for improving cognition in Alzheimer's disease and senile dementia patients, the evidence is now seen as too inconsistent to support the use of piracetam for these conditions.
Clotting, coagulation, vasospastic disorders
Piracetam is useful as a long-term treatment for clotting, coagulation, and vasospastic disorders such as Raynaud's phenomenon and deep-vein thrombosis.It is an extremely safe anti-thrombotic agent that operates through the novel mechanism of inhibiting platelet aggregation and enhancing blood-cell deformability. Because traditional anti-thrombotic drugs operate through the separate mechanism of inhibiting clotting factors, co-administration of piracetam has been shown to highly complement the efficacy and safety of traditional Warfarin/Heparin anti-coagulation therapy. The most effective treatment range for this use is a daily dose of 4.8 to 9.6 grams divided into three daily doses at 8 hours apart. Piracetam was investigated as a complement or alternative to Warfarin as a safe and effective long-term treatment for recurring deep-vein thrombosis.
Depression and anxiety
Some sources suggest that Piracetam's overall effect on lowering depression and anxiety is higher than improving memory.
[edit]Stroke, ischemia and symptoms
Piracetam has been found to improve cognition after stroke, and reduce symptoms, such as aphasia. It also improves cognition in cases of chronic ischemia.
Dyspraxia and dysgraphia
Due to its supposed effect on nerves and muscles it is sometimes prescribed as an aid to muscle or dexterity training, particularly in cases of agraphia and dyspraxia. There has not been a specific study as to whether it is beneficial in this. Vinpocetine, another purported nootropic with which piracetam is indirectly synergistic, is confirmed to help with these conditions to a certain degree.[citation needed]
Schizophrenia
At least one study shows that, while piracetam positively affected the cognition of patients suffering from schizophrenia in the same way as it positively affected the cognition of others, the severity of subjects' schizophrenia remained unaffected, for better or worse.
Click to expand...

There definitely seems to be some benefits in piracetam for healthy brained people.

I didn't notice any, though.
 
To me those mostly seem like less than healthy individuals. Plus I don't always trust Wikipedia when it comes to supplements, some of it can border on woo. I agree mostly with sekio about how you're actually getting a better nights sleep without drugs, they are terrible for sleep architecture. But I have felt the same thing ceasing taking sedatives, I've also experienced borderline mania ceasing clonazepam use.
 
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