Misc Chloral Hydrate VS Barbiturates or Placydyl

[muie]

How does chloral hydrate compare to good barbiturates like amobarbital/seconal/nembutal or placydyl?

I am familiar with amobarbital quite abit and although it reselmbles an alcohol buzz its very different, though I've never had placydyl some people say they are similar.

Would it be comparable to meprobamate/carisoprodo, barbs or placydyll?

Thanks in advance!

 

[sekio]

I think chloral hydrate was superceded by the barbiturates for safety reasons, but I'm not sure.

It's still used as a last-resort sleep medication. I gather that it's not very recreational.

 

[Lightning-Nl]

I think chloral hydrate was superceded by the barbiturates for safety reasons, but I'm not sure.

What you're thinking of are the Bromides. Lithium Bromide, Potassium Bromide, etc. A quick Wikisearch tells me that Bromides had been used since the mid-1800's, but they were incredibly dangerous and therapeutic dosages were literally only a couple milligrams away from lethal dosages. I remember reading some vague articles about their use as an over-the-counter sleep aid from the mid-1800's to something like the early 1960's. The same article mentions that they instantly fell out of favor with doctors when Sodium Barbital was discovered. (that would have been some time in the 1940's)

As for Chloral Hydrate. I believe it was OTC the same time as Bromides were. However, it was still widely used up until the Controlled Substances Act. In fact, Chloral Hydrate was the main sedative found in the very famous, widely known tincture of sedatives that was sold as "Knockout Drops". Knockout Drops were a tincture of Ethanol, Chloral Hydrate, and 2-methyl-2-butanol. Did you ever watch Tom and Jerry by chance? One of the more famous episodes is entirely based around Tom knocking out Spike with Knockout Drops and Jerry can't wake him up.

It's one of the best Tom and Jerry skits there was. Here's a link to it

[video=dailymotion;xnyl3]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnyl3_quiet-please-scene-3_fun[/video]

That brought back memories, so I decided to find the rest of the episode. I'll just drop it here, in case anyone else wants it

[video=dailymotion;xcpezh]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcpezh_tom-and-jerry-quiet-please-1945-car_shortfilms[/video]

 

[sekio]

What you're thinking of are the Bromides.

I assure you I'm thinking of chloral hydrate. The bromides are a totally different class of drugs, made rather unpopular by the multi-day half life....

If we're going to cite Wikipedia at each other, here:

Chloral hydrate is used for the short-term treatment of insomnia and as a sedative before minor medical or dental treatment. It was largely displaced in the mid-20th century by barbiturates and subsequently by benzodiazepines.

 

[Lightning-Nl]

I assure you I'm thinking of chloral hydrate. The bromides are a totally different class of drugs, made rather unpopular by the multi-day half life....

If we're going to cite Wikipedia at each other, here:

I guess I misinterpreted your post. I thought you meant drugs that had been replaced entirely by Barbiturates. That would have been Bromides.

Chloral Hydrate was replaced with Barbiturates as well, but the difference was - they still use Chloral Hydrate and it was still a very popular sedative up until it became controlled in 1970. Bromides were almost immediately replaced with Barbiturates; this happened so quickly because people were dying of overdoses left and right - which is the reason why they no longer use them. They're so dangerous that they'll cause toxicity. Even in therapeutic dosages (unless your a dog, that is.)

 

[Lightning-Nl]

Also, I meant to mention that I haven't heard any safety concerns. Well...that's not necessarily true. Due to the fact that it's metabolite is Trichloroethanol, it could be considered 'weakly' mutagenic. Probably no more than ethanol to be honest, however. So yeah, there is concern when using Chloral Hydrate - however, it doesn't appear to be anymore dangerous than Ethanol.

I guess that doesn't mean much, since Acetaldehyde (metabolite of Ethanol) is pretty toxic. But hey! As long as you stick you safe dosages, you'll probably have no long term effects if you stick to short, occasional usage.

 

[sekio]

I think chloral hydrate is actually a prodrug for trichloroethanol in the same fashion that paraldehyde (acetaldehyde trimer) is/was also used as a prodrug for ethanol, due to the fact that the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme will run both ways quite happily.

Trichloroethanol is reported as being a liver/kidney toxin. I imagine part of this is because it is metabolized, eventually, to trichloroacetic acid. However, I have a feeling that due to the rather high potency of chloral hydrate (you only need about a half gram to knock someone out cold, compare ethanol) one would expect to have serious lifestyle problems, or a major tolerance to chloral before it became of concern, explaining why it is still prescribed as a last-resort sleeping medication to this day. I think if it's used "as directed" the body is well within its ability to detoxify 250-1000mg of chloral in a healthy individual.

Related also is chlorobutanol, which has similar effects and may well metabolize to trichloroethanol. Chlorobutanol is still used as a preservative but is not used as a sedative/hypnotic even though it possesses sedative effects, because it's like chloral but longer duration due to increased lipophilicity. Nobody really enjoys the phenobarbital-like "bags of sand on the head" sedation.

 

[Lightning-Nl]

Nobody really enjoys the phenobarbital-like "bags of sand on the head" sedation.

Wouldn't have guessed that a Barbiturate would have that kind of sedation. I always found that effect to be way more typical of the heavy neuroleptics (antipsychotics) than the 'light' neuroleptics.

Guess I wouldn't enjoy barbs that much then. That effect is one of the main reason why I hated Antipsychotics, TCA's, and Trazodobe so much.

 

[sekio]

Barbiturates are actually more variable in response than you would expect: sort of like the benzos, fast-acting ones like Seconal, Nembutal, Amytal, Tuinal etc were certainly considered more recreational than phenobarbital, in the same way people prefer Xanax or temazepam over clonazepam or phenazepam.

Phenobarbital is perhaps the worst example of a barbiturate; it has a very long half life and long onset time, so is just not recreational.

 

[Lightning-Nl]

Barbiturates are actually more variable in response than you would expect: sort of like the benzos, fast-acting ones like Seconal, Nembutal, Amytal, Tuinal etc were certainly considered more recreational than phenobarbital, in the same way people prefer Xanax or temazepam over clonazepam or phenazepam.

Phenobarbital is perhaps the worst example of a barbiturate; it has a very long half life and long onset time, so is just not recreational.

I've heard that the best barbiturate is Sodium Pentothal (Thiopental). Would you agree with that?

 

[sekio]

It wouldn't surprise me; it has fast onset and short duration which are the hallmarks of a dependency-forming drug.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Placidyl was the best sleep medication I was ever prescribed. I would rarely abuse it too, i was still a good boy (only had interests in abusing psychedelics then), but my doc scripting me 15 of them big green pills every couple months or so for academic induced anxiety (exams the next day which was causing insomnia). It was removed in 2006 by health canada. Used it for 2 years, the 4 years prior I was using Seconal for that purpose, health canada removed it in 2004 (and it was really annoying to have my pharmacy call over 10 of their colleagues at other pharmacies to have it ordered to mine).

Then I got to know benzos and I'm hooked for life. golf clap health canada, golf clap

Chloral Hydrate is still available but I wouldn't bother with asking for that now.

p.s. neither Placidyl or Seconal caused me to feel like I got a brick to the head a couple stories high from Maccauley Caulkin.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Sodium pentothal is too short acting of a barb for a nice high, I believe it was (is) used as a "truth agent". Secobarbital is the real deal.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

^You know it. Too bad it's dead and gone. 2004, the year Barbs died in Canada. Dunno about the US. I know you lost Placidyl much earlier than us for sure.

 

[tricomb]

I've heard that the best barbiturate is Sodium Pentothal (Thiopental). Would you agree with that?

Definitely not, although "best" is extremely subjective. I think Seconal (secobarbital) is the most effective barbiturate, just my $0.02 though. And Chloral Hydrate is really shitty, I've tried it for my debilitating insomnia and the risks vs rewards is definitely leaning heavily on the side of too risky for little reward. I much prefer benzodiazepines, temazepam IMO is best for insomnia.

This thread is basically a comparison thread which isn't allowed especially in this devoid of any harm reduction thread, so I'm closing it.